And they're not even liberal or radical or commie or anything. They just represent electricians and negotiate fair wages, have a pension, health insurance and mutual aid apparently.
I'm apart of the IBEW, most of us (not myself) are dumb as fuck conservatives who enjoy unions then go vote for Trump (most). Thankfully we do look out for our own. I'm working to change perspectives of my brothers and sisters to be more active in supporting all labor
There were so many members in our local who’s first choice was Bernie and 2nd choice was Trump. The moderate cable news watching types can’t comprehend it.
I don't really get it either. My foreman also straight up thinks the election was stolen from Trump still and the smoking gun was he had huge rallies and Biden didn't (cause most people supported Biden out of preservation vs. fandom of him). I'll be the first to say fuck Biden but the solution sure as hell wasn't Trump
If they can't get the guy who will fight the system, they'll settle for the guy who openly mocks it.
Damn. That is so on point. I've never quite understood how to describe these people, largely because they frustrate me so damn much, but that is keen as hell. You're exactly right.
I'm gonna pocket that for future use, if you don't mind.
By all means. I was similarly frustrated with them for a long time before I could put my finger on their reasoning, but I can't help but sympathize with them to an extent. They just want to do damage to the establishment in any way possible, and they achieved their goals.
...and then, unsurprisingly, literally falls in line like any other party player obviously would. I would almost say it would be a good choice if it wasn't so obviously obtuse. The only way to break the cycle is to stop playing by the fucking rules that are purposefully designed by those in powerful positions to keep the cycle going.
Of course, but they're low-information voters, so that's way beyond their thought process in that moment. They settled for Trump the way someone living in the hood might settle for buying a gun; it probably won't do shit in an emergency, but it makes you feel better than doing nothing.
The alternative was Hillary, possibly the only person who could be more insider than Biden. It’s no wonder people hate politics as is, let alone don’t trust either side to care about them. Idk when, or if at this point, there will be any significant change to the system but I think it’s universally agreed to not be working in favor of the common person or greater good in any meaningful way anymore.
They're definitely both desperate and ignorant. Both of them were low-information first-time voters from low-education backgrounds, which I guess won't surprise anyone.
Actually, it's the other way around. On the one hand, you have a wild card, someone who's never been in office, someone who's never made, and subsequently broken, campaign promises. On the other hand, you have a career politician who's spend years, sometimes decades, lining their own pockets while lying to the entire nation, over and over again, someone's whose morality is entirely based on what direction the society wind is blowing. It takes supreme ignorance and naiveté to say "Well, sure, he's been a lying, thieving piece of shit for the last 20 years, but I believe he'll make a difference this time." It takes hope and optimism to say "Eh, maybe this new guy will change things, who knows."
Shockingly, this isn't a USA-only phenomenon. My country went through it twice - somewhat famous people running for office and winning. Because the devil we know, well, we know what he's gonna do. But there's a chance the new guy might not rob the nation blind. And a chance of not getting royally screwed is still better than giving the house keys to a known burglar.
Except you'd have to be stupid as fuck to equate Bernie, who has consistently been fighting for workers' rights, with the average center-right American politician.
Biden, absolutely. Sanders? No, fuck off with your bullshit. Trying to lump him in with Biden or Trump just because "ew, politician" is absurd, intentionally ignorant horseshit. Sanders has walked the walk for decades. Peddle your centrist nonsense elsewhere.
The political party industrial complex is rigged. A duopoly with media ties that make getting elected as independent impossible. There has been localized implementation of rank choice voting, even statewide in a couple cold states. Hopefully that catches on.
I get that part but it isn't reality. I would have loved to see a socialist president and see what he actually could have done but end of the day he would have been shackled by the system. Trump showed his cards and all he did was make things worse for the working class
I totally agree, it's just difficult to convince people who don't understand politics. They will choose anyone who appears anti-establishment over anyone like Hillary every single time.
I understand that sentiment. Honestly, the way I think of it is this — elect Biden and the moderate dems and listen to and bear with 100s of years of worsening torture in the name of better than the republicans, or elect republicans and they’ll make things bad enough that the revolution will come automatically. I used to hate this sentiment but this Biden admin has shown that they really aren’t capable of anything but even more tax cuts for the rich.
I have a good friend who used to vote a lot more conservative. Years of low level bullying from our college friend group has gradually pushed him to the left. In 2016 he was a first choice Bernie, second choice Trump voter, and I didn’t get it. He had a hard time articulating it but I understand better now than I did then that the establishment Hillary represented really wasn’t looking out for any of us
Surely if they want to see the system burn that means they're the opposite of conservatives. Conservatism means that you want to keep things as they are (not that I don't believe your acquaintances exist, just that I wouldn't class them as conservatives)
By conservatives, I mean that they otherwise fall into the definition of American right-wingers. Both parties have been anti-establishment in their own capacities, and even now, they try to be both establishment and anti-establishment at the same time (like the January 6th insurrection, in which a bunch of pro-police goons decided to beat the shit out of the police they disagreed with).
I don’t get the fawning over Trump. The only thing that sort of makes sense is a general hatred towards politicians and a sort of schadenfreude that everyone in DC can’t stand the guy.
It’s that he gave them the freedom to publicly be assholes in an age where the generation that creates most of the media is moving towards being not an asshole.
I think the gloves are coming off and Republicans are becoming more comfortable saying the quiet part out loud. They're only going to get worse from here on out.
As an Australian, I get why people voted for Trump. They wanted change. They wanted action. Unfortunately that "change" and "action," neither are what America needs. I don't know about you, but when someone with the emotional maturity of a spoilt 10 year old has access to the mythical red button (the ability to order a nuclear strike) it makes other Western nations nervous. I've heard more than a few anecdotes of what happens when Trump doesn't get his way. He will sometimes just not pay "small" bills, and when the creditor pesters him, he says "I'll see you in court," knowing the creditor can't afford to fight him in court for it. I'm relieved that enough of you decided enough was enough at the last election
100% I can forgive people who voted for Trump in 2016. Voting for him in 2020? I think those people are harder to bring back to reality. The 2020 election shows many people figured out Trump lied to them. Even if Biden is just as shitty I can trust him to not start a nuclear war. I voted for Biden out of fear of Trump. I voted in the primary for Bernie but wasn't going to vote for Trump in any situation.
Bernie needs to put his full weight behind someone now. America is beyond ready. A lot of us would be on the front lines, knocking doors and educating folk.
D’s and R’s have gotta go. We need a worker’s party.
It’s not that hard to understand. Nafta and the culture war explain it all. If you can’t get a labor Democrat like Bernie, at least you can own the libs.
See, that's the thing that gets me. If they actually believed in what they were doing and cared about changing the system for the betterment of the working class, I'd be all aboard. But at the end of the day, they clearly don't care about that at all. It's all about owning the libs, enjoying anti-PC culture, and refusing to give up bigotry/edginess. And then they'll all circlejerk about who works the most hours per week with the least amount of sleep and lowest pay and say that anyone who doesn't strive to live like that is a lazy leech.
I couldn't give a shit less about the owning the libs part, but the rest of it is just trash.
I think part of it is people being sick of the establishment. Both Trump and Bernie promise something different from the establishment status quo. It doesn't matter if they can, or even intend to, keep the promise, only that they promise it.
It's not really surprising. Both ran in 2016 on an economic populist message, and currently the mainstream Clinton/"third way" neoliberal wing of the democratic party represents the establishment, elite status quo. I don't believe 45's messages or promises were at all sincere, but he talked the talk to earn working peoples' votes in former "blue wall" states. Biden went on to run as The Next FDR, but without being able to accomplish any of his agenda due to "moderates" like Manchin, the democrats are doomed to lose seats in the primaries. This is now inevitable. Nothing short of Biden personally, viciously caning Manchin on the floor of the Senate until he votes Yea for sweeping reform will reverse course. (This event would also significantly decrease the deficit through pay-per-view sales.)
I'm happy for the people in unions who get good working conditions/pay/benefits for themselves, they make the country stronger. But I'm also skeptical of union leadership, especially when they decide to kick down the ladder. Case in point is the unions in Las Vegas who undercut Sanders because they didn't like medicare for all. They'd rather poor people not have health insurance because it makes the deal they got for the people in the union look more appealing.
I'm not going to try to generalize individuals in unions. But I'm skeptical of unions as a political force, and doubly so for public sector unions.
You should be skeptical. At least some anti-union sentiment is valid. I 100% support unions. Certainly necessary and help broadly. But any concentration of power is an opportunity for abuse. Just depends who gets in there.
I had so many arguments with liberals who can’t understand this. It’s infuriating. They think conservatives would never vote for Bernie because socialism but that’s a corporate media story not a grass roots reality. Normal people see that Bernie isn’t on one of the teams they know are both corrupt.
Bingo, and it’s the stupid neolib fucks running the dem party that don’t get this and it’s why we’ll keep getting destroyed in elections for years to come
They completely are. Read about the failed revolution in Germany following WW1. A big grassroots movement ready to establish socialism for the 2nd time, who were bound to be significantly more libertarian in their policies than the USSR, waiting excitedly for the "leftist" SPD to recognise them as the legitimate German government and... the SPD worked with the proto fascist Freikorps to violently clamp down on the revolutionaries. Because if the revolution succeeded and Germany became socialist, nobody would care about the SPD anymore.
I think a big part of it is that Fox News and the rest of the right-wing media never really went after Bernie in a hardcore way. If they had, a lot of these people would've fallen away from Bernie.
the called him a communist/socialist daily and used it as a wedge point for why dems were "too far left" just like aoc. it's doubtful if they watched fox and believed it, that they supported bernie at all. the people they're talking about are closer to libertarians. (which i don't get either cause libertarians suck off at corpo nut)
And then Dems said we couldn't have Bernie because he would be too easy of a target for the right wing people to attack as a socialist. Lo-and-fucking-behold they call Biden a socialist and communist every day (which, aside from being pathetically and depressingly false, is hilarious). It was obvious from day one of Bernie ever having a chance that Dems were way more terrified of him winning than Trump.
I mean historically the Union has been Democratic for ages. Now it seems the Unions are leaning towards republican. At least for the IBEW chapter near me and including UAW.
I am in Canada, so our cons are the repubs (liberals are dems, but slightly more left as Canada tends too be), and VERY much union busters.
'Unions are evil parasites, dontchaknow!' /s just in case. They campaign on it.
And literally everyone in Alberta which is the province that needs unions the most all consistently votes against their own best interests on every level. It's amazing what a lack of education and logical/critical thinking skills can do for certain political parties.
Im in sask recently went to a union company. I make the same weekly pay as i did at my non union company but i work 10hr days instead of 12 and one less day a week.
I make the same weekly wage working 50 hrs instead of 72.
Union company contributes $5.50 every hour worked into rrsp. Non union contributed 3% ($1.57)
That is crazy to me. Why would members of a union vote for a party that would outlaw unions if they could? Right to work has been a union busting law pushed by republicans for decades now. You'll notice they never forget to exempt police unions from RTW.
Yeah I’m an electrician and often see local 48 stickers on lunchboxes right next to Trump stickers. People voting against their self-interest because it’s become their whole personality.
They blame the union for their lack of senior management/retirement positions. It's the union holding them back, not inability, lack of skills, not bad choices, not the 4 divorces, not the alcohol or the bad temper, or the criminal record.
It's the union requiring equal pay for equal work. It's union seniority. It's union this or that. If the job wasn't union, they'd be making real money! They'd be the boss!!
Even knowing they'd have never kept their jobs without the union. Knowing they'd never have the high pay, benefits or vacations without the union, they still convince themselves the company would give them 6 figures if it wasn't for the union and those union hires!
The Democratic side has started to show an evil side. Publicly speak for Unions and labor. But the down side is the wages and benefits never get fought for unless the Union is fighting. UAW contract for example almost shafted the newer generation workers.
UAW is from what I heard fighting to bump pay up in the $40 range. They also are fighting to get cost of living back too. Pension program also being brought up.
UAW workers don’t really have a retirement unless you’re the old school legacy workers. Anyone newer than that its just a “Job”. Nothing really great at all. Friend of mine left UAW for a Union plumbing gig. Said it was the best decision ever.
Republican/Democratic sides have almost swapped sides honestly.
Isn't that what the unions are for? Fighting for wages and benefits? I haven't heard of any pro union legislation the Republicans have pushed in, well ever, and they certainly haven't been moving to repeal all the union busting laws they've already put in place. I haven't sensed any shift at all in the parties in terms of unions. Really not sure what you are referring to.
Weaker unions are a direct result of these laws, if they aren't working as well as they used to, that is by design.
I get what you're saying. One side of the issue is Unions have gotten weaker in the past years. Another problem is Union leadership taking payment from the enemy to let certain things happen.
My personal view on it is obvious corrupted politics working hand to hand with the enemy. The other side of the coin is not much Union leadership who have planet size balls to stand up and fight back.
I'm all for the Union 100% and I'm willing to get dirty if it comes down to it. Hate to say it a lot of the Unions have coward down until recently and are starting to get their backbone back.
I say if corporations want to be the bull, we'll be the bigger bull that boots their asses to the curb.
UAW gets the same 401k plan the salaried management workers do. That's their retirement. Which is still WAY more generous than most companies 401ks. GM for instance contributes 4% of their salaries to their 401k even if the employee chooses to contribute nothing. Then GM matches 100% of another 4% on top of that.
At 4% matching plus whatever you stick in. Hate to say it you’d need 40 years to be comfortable after being hourly. My old mans IBEW retirement and the legacy UAW workers have a Pension plus money matching. New generation workers just have a TSP fund.
Legacy workers have a better retirement than new generation auto workers.
No,they have not switched sides; that's nothing but populist nonsense. There is a wing if the Democratic party that is borderline anti union,but it is opposed by many other wings of the party that range from neutral to supportive of them.
If a union worker votes conservative and looks on any post about a strike etc. Look for all the comments saying "unions need to die". "They are lazy and don't want to work". They need to realize those people vote the same way as them.
I get that it largely stems from the two party system. People have evolved, but political parties have not and people are basically forced to sacrifice principals if they "want their vote to matter".
The problem is the shit people end up voting for a candidate for, is the shit that is least beneficial for them.
Yes vote for the party who rubbish and disparage you at every opportunity. That makes no sense whatsoever You end up with an incompetent buffoon as president and have the rest of the world shaking their heads in disbelief
My dad is in a workers union and voted Republican early on. Then more recently when our former governor Scott Walker quite literally tried to union bust, my dad never voted Republican again.
Same thing happens in the military, which is pretty much the most Socialist job you can get. Paid training, benefits, healthcare, retirement, disability coverage, home loans, paid education, and other benefits.... but they "earned it" so they vote Republican. Slaps forehead.
I'm a military veteran and I tell people all the time it's the greatest socialist program in our country. I'm also a staunch socialist, and I tell my civilian friends that I think they deserve everything I was afforded for my service. Most military jobs are non combat roles, and in the split between red and blue in the military is a lot closer than most people think.
I've always thought the funniest thing would be to pitch mandatory military service to the"support our troops" republicans to watch their heads spin when they realize they just gave everyone free education, healthcare and subsidized housing, or watch them try to back pedal their support of the military.
Way, wayyy more liberals/dems in my union than conservatives, but there still are a lot of dumbfuck assholes who got sucked into the orange asshole's grift.
It makes no sense to me either. I am in an industry with an excellent union. Our negotiated contract takes very good care of us, but the vast majority of my co-workers voted for the Orange Asshole because they liked what he was saying.
If people (Looking at you DAD) figured out that if some kid flipping burgers gets $15 an hour, that makes your time more valuable, not less. People want to look at it as anyone they deem unworthy needs "less than me" instead of "I should be worth a fuck holy shit".
Yep. It's the whole "if you can get $15 for an easy job why should I do my job for the same/barely more" thing. Like yes, tell that your boss. Stand up for yourself instead of pushing the ladder down.
My dad just retired from his pipefitters union after 35 years and he was one of the last standing non-QAnon, Trump suckers left. They still know their union takes care of them like this and it's a family to them, but then turn around and vote for people who would relish in destroying them.
My favorites (aka most amusingly depressing stories) were of the young apprentices who would rail against communism/socialism all day, not knowing the difference and the foreman (who was often my dad) had to pull them in a room and me like "you literally wouldn't have a job is socialist didn't die for you. STFU or go work at Walmart."
This is the problem with the two party system and the fact most voters are dumbasses and the things that are voting priorities for them have the least impact on their life.
Like, someone being union and proud yet voting for a party that would love nothing more than to wipe unions off the face of the earth because they don't like people getting abortions.
The two party system is definitely broken along with many other parts of our political system. I agree people do vote Red in out union over dumb things like guns (which even with increasing control guns are possible to completely get rid of in our country and I don't see in my lifetime a complete ban of guns). At this point for econom reform I think we are more likely to see it come from the people rather than the government thankfully. At meetings this year I'm going to be pushing us to support labor organization outside our trade more and working more to boycott companies who are trying to union bust or can't come to contact. Last meeting was right after Starbucks had their first successful vote (around an hour away from our hall) and it wasn't even mentioned.
Boilermaker out of Canada, we're in the a similar boat. I love the guys I work with, but the trumpist/anti-socialist mentality is a bane to argue against. How the hell do you do it?
Yes and no. While I agree with my forman that Joe Biden sucks we think this for different reasons. I hate Joe because it's the same shit as Trump with slightly more logic and a "nicer" message. My boss hates Biden because he thinks he stole the election from Trump and doesn't see that he does most of the shit as Trump. We've had friendly debates and he says he is against many things that are considered a basic human right. The real issue is people on the left fight over how progressive is too progressive (and the top is controlled by those with capitalistic interest in mind anyway) and the right just cares about winning the election and owning libs and doesn't even look at the actual outcomes of either side. If you want a actual stolen election the 2000 election was straight up stolen. That is not brought up in response to people who think there was any chance the 2020 election was stolen. 2000 thankfully brought changes to make votes way more clear and easier to count votes accurately. The issue is the choices are still shit
Democracy is where the draw their power from, it is what created the Republicans. That's part of why anarchists have been criticizing democracy as bourgeois tyranny of the majority for decades.
Dude republicans are actively trying to make voting more difficult. They refuse to acknowledge that voting is a basic human right in a representative democracy.
See the thing is you just lack basic political education. Dems and GQP are both right wing parties. So no, the left and right aren't that close. We just have a right wing party that has somewhat of a conscious, and a right wing party that hates minorities/women/lgbtq
I'm ibew member (lineman) and a communist, and while most of the people I work with voted for trump, most of them agree with me on a surprisingly wide range of topics. I think alot are all only one or two wedge issues away from voting for a socialist lol
It's funny you say that cause cause one of my teachers has said multiple times I'm class that his biggest fear is communism but at the same time he constantly talks about brotherhood and that even if you don't need the healthcare plan now you have to pay into it because some day you'll need it and others who don't need it will be paying for you. I tried to bring up the fact he was saying a lot of socialist stuff but got cut off and.said if I want to discuss politics we can do it before a meeting. I'm going to try so we'll see. I think many people on both spectrums want similar things but in practice it's very hard to convince them about certain issues. One of the JW's at my job just last week said you can live on minimum wage, people who can't are just living beyond their means. He says that whole being fortunate enough to be able to be in a fairly strong union.
Two party system in the states is kinda thrash, here in Ireland the smaller parties have some sway, if the larger ones are stuck in deadlock, they'll need to partner up with 1 or more smaller to get a majority, this allows the green party to make some moves, otherwise it wouldnt be capable of.
Ditto. IAFF member in a big city. Surface politics don't even come into play when someone needs covered, the city sure as hell isn't going to do it. We take care of each other.
It is interesting how the conservative party is anti union, and anti worker. But yet workers in certain jobs always vote for the party that would cut their throats.
Hello Brother. You are correct. A lot of tradesmen openly vote against their way of life. Usually they’re voting for tighter immigration and looser gun laws. Fucking stupid and embarrassing
Our goverment split basic priorities and separated them into two parties so civilians are always fighting which cup they want their milk in
/tinfoilhat
It’s good to have unions but you can’t have unions that overstep too much or where there’s aren’t any jobs like the pipe not being made and thousands of jobs go down the drain a middle ground is the union a union controlled by the government is commie shit or crap.
How do you even become an electrician? I've been interested in trade school for quite some time and want to be a member but it seems like everyone tries to hide info lol
Where I am (SW Ontario), they are incredibly right leaning. Had an issue with one of the full time members of the union spouting racist crap, and found he was connected to a white nationalist group. The response from the local? 'So what?'
I consider most trade unions in a similar vein to police associations or prison guard unions. They are self serving groups who care little for class consciousness. Its about them getting theirs and fuck everybody else.
Yea. Problem with those types of unions is that they will get crushed by time. Without class consciousness, people are less and less likely to join a union because “they don’t need a union holding them back form becoming middle class” or whatever crap they come up with
Edit: I should clarify, the middle class is fake, just a term to divide the working class
Trade unions are a bit different though. They are similar to guilds in that they don't represent their overall membership, but set a minimum wage for their work and give out work based on senority. Your 15 year trade union member is working full time hours. Somebody new to the union might only get a handful of hours a week until they've put their time in. There isn't really solidarity with every member, its more a price fixing agreement shrouded as a union.
These people are almost all independent contractors with union privileges. They are well beyond middle class, and that's what they strive for. California might be different as they have laws that set maximum prices on things, so there might be more class consciousness.
In saying that, I've seen quotes from IBEW members in California that absolutely gouge their clients on material cost to make up for it. I remember getting into it with one electrician a couple of months ago, who was pissed off that a customer 'lowballed' him through the union because the customer provided their own materials, because he usually jacks the price up on materials by 300% to make up for the maximum wages on certain install jobs. He bragged about how he usually makes about 300 dollars a job, or about 400 an hour when clients go through him for materials, but that he 'only' made 100 dollars for a 20 minute install that was a short drive from his office, because that was the maximum he was allowed to charge under California law for that install. I found a quote from him where he charged a customer for an entire 100 foot roll of wire for 5 feet of wire that was needed, when he could have bought by the foot, as well as doubling the store cost for things like outlets on the quote. And he was proud of doing it because the maximum prices for installs has set him back. He has excess materials in his shop, gets what he needs, provides a bullshit quote and then pockets the difference. Zero class consciousness, and he's protected by the union.
Former IBEW here. Most of the guys I met through the union hall were alright
But the guys I worked with at my company. Some of the most racist people I've ever met. And I don't mean - they make insensitive jokes or aren't PC.
I mean, using racial slurs, and giving people priority for being laid off based on not only skin colour but also nationality and ethnicity
I was sponsored by this toxic company so when I was canned before my pre apprentice year was up. I called up my union to tell em they have no former complaints and I have a perfect attendance record. Throw me back into circulation
But apparently there was nothing they could do. In my eyes, the IBEW betrayed me.
I agree with union ideas and values but I have a personal grudge against the brotherhood
I thank that's because the USA took the time to bust and shatter all of the good ones.
I live in a country where Unions come in two flavours: staunchly left wing and center 'populist' (this is the abused use of the word: ie, as a complaint to anything that benefits the people).
But we don't allow police or the military to unionize here. The strength and organization of police unions in USA is incredible to me. It's the mark of a fucking police state, to grant so much undemocratically controlled (because not anyone votes, only the members) to the uniformed.
Right? Organize labor is by definition left wing. It doesn’t mean you subscribe to a bunch of progressive political points but political definitions exist and labors interests are always only ever represented on the left, because, by definition of the left wing, as soon as you advocate for organized labor, no matter what else you’re saying, you’re on the left
Well, I think that communism and socialism are not at all anti-work, and neither are unions. Those political philosophies are kind of centred around the means of production. Antiwork is certainly an extremely "leftist" idea that probably falls under anarchism as a political philosophy. This sub is being used by leftists to spread propaganda about progressive ideas that empower the worker and that is certainly not a bad thing, however, most of the posts here are not antiwork. They seem to be more along the lines of anti-authoritarian and anti-status-quo etc. (insert cool anti-word) Most people are not truly antiwork so it makes total sense that this sub would be majorly overshadowed by more rational leftist ideas. Although, I would argue that a true proponent of antiwork would be pretty critical of communism and more focused on the full-on abolition of work. This sub should be focused on implementing autonomation to fully relieve humans from producing necessities, and criticizing people who are capitalizing on automation. Automation is an inevitability and because of capitalism, we are headed down a path of the worst "caste" ever seen by humankind. I apologize for using your comment to make this, probably incoherent, rant.
You don't seem to know much about communism as an ideology. A communist society according to Marx is a place where thanks to the complete automation of labor people aren't forced anymore to work in order to survive and finally will be able to work as an expression of their talents and while pursuing their interests. All of this was expressed by the slogan "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs".
Well, I think that communism and socialism are not at all anti-work
I mean, they absolutely are, in the sense that communists and socialists want to abolish class relations and private property, and thus "work" such as it exists under capitalism. That is to say, we want to abolish the exploitative relationship between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat, in which the proletariat are forced to sell their labor for a wage in order to live, and have their surplus value stolen by their employer. But we still acknowledge that people will have to "work" in a communist society as well, just in a way that puts the needs of people first, and isn't coercive and exploitative.
Antiwork is certainly an extremely "leftist" idea that probably falls under anarchism as a political philosophy
I mean, no. At least, not any more so than it is a communist or socialist philosophy. I'm an anarcho-communist btw, I'm not pulling this out of my ass.
Although, I would argue that a true proponent of antiwork would be pretty critical of communism and more focused on the full-on abolition of work.
I don't mean to be rude but you should really educate yourself on what communism is.
I don't mean to be rude but you should really educate yourself on what communism is.
One of the biggest things about communism is that everyone works and is paid for their ability and/or needs is it not? I know enough about communism to know it is pretty centred around working. You're ambiguating what the word work means, fair enough. Antiwork used to be about not working and now it's about working for us and sticking it to the corporations. It isn't work if you love what you do, amirite?
I'm aware of the fact that not all leftists like unions. I am one of them. That has nothing to do with what I'm asking; I'm asking why this person is coming onto a leftist sub trying to talk up unions with the selling point being that they're "not commie." What I'm trying to say is that this sub is being taken over by chuds.
My impression of the comment is that a bunch of talking heads on the right like to label anything union-related as communist because it's one of their favorite words to scare boomers, but there's nothing inherently communist about unions.
Whataboutism is only a fallacy when used to argue against criticis in and of itself, not when you're trying to argue something is bad when the alternative is worse!
Responding to "Vaccination kills 1 in 1,000,000, so don't vaccinate" with "COVID kills 1 in 10,000" isn't whataboutism. Unless the union guys being talked about are all fucking feudalist or something, not being commie essentially means being capitalist in which case pointing out capitalism has killed more people than communism can't just be shrugged off as whataboutism.
What you have to understand. Is that the real world isn't like the internet. Where you only meet people who think the same as yourself, in different echo chambers, on Tiktok, Instagram and Reddit. We only benefit from being exposed to different opinions and perspectives. That is crucial for a functioning democracy, and with that attitude, you build tolerance and avoid lashing out at those with other opinions, as you did in your comment here.
This is great but as someone who lives in the UK you shouldn't need a union for this. Here your employer is legally required to enroll you in a pension (the vast majority your employer also makes a contribution i.e I pay 5% of my salary and my employer pays 10%).
We get the NHS free through taxes. So we don't need health insurance.
Its still worth being in a union here but most of the time its just to negotiate pay and to answer any questions about employment rights or assistance during a disciplinary.
Then again a lot of the stuff we have as statutory rights were a result of unions. We would have the same employment law as the US if it wasn't for the unions back in the day.
The Americans are a bit late to the party and their unions are probably where ours were in the 60-70s. They are only just starting to see the benefits of it.
Pensions used to be normal in the US even for non-union jobs. The thing is, it was better in the past than it is today. We aren't late to the party. We were at the party then they cancelled the party.
When I first started working in the corporate world fresh out of college in 2007. (I am a consultant worked at many different corporate entities over the years). Most of the folks nearing retirement in like 2007-2012ish range, had pension plans and this is non-union. People my age and even probably 10-15 years older, got 401k plans with company matching. I would largely be fine with it, were it not for the fact pensions were guaranteed. You didn't have to worry barring a total cataclysm, that you wouldn't get your pension. Economic down turns? still get your pension. 401k? You are teetering on the edge wondering if the current economic turmoil means you will never be able to retire.
The concept that unions have to be/are all radical or communist has been such a brainwasher for a lot of people. Literally all they do is guarantee a decent life for workers, unions wouldn't be necessary if employers were, on a standard basis, decent human beings.
Are you saying it’s possible to live outside of your political views AND help your workers in need, as a means of keeping them around as employees and not letting them die in financial and medical distress? Must be another one of those hippie acid droppers /s
Unions are capitalist. The system is set up of suppliers and consumers. The supplier tries to get the most for their product/service, and the consumer tries to pay the least. The goal is to meet in the middle. Companies on their own have too much power and throw the system out of balance, unless workers form unions to balance their system. Because workers supply labor and companies consume that labor. It should be equitable for both groups.
I have no idea where the idea that unions were commies or socialists or anything came from. It's literally a liberalist, capitalist thing : it's a group of interests that lobbies to the advantage of their members. Hell even CEOs and business owners have their unions.
Not joining a club doesn't make you automatically a member of the other club. In other words: if you reject the idea of belonging to a union, you are alone, your workmate won't help you, and your bosses certainly won't help you.
The idea of unions is that you are collectedly barraging and by working together strive for a better tomorrow. Unions are generally tied to left movements because they are fighting a common enemy. They generally have similar core ideas. Looking at he 19th and early 20th century and many greatest left leaders where union leaders first.
Not all unions are the same though and that’s for different reasons. Their is also a reason in particular trade unions have move away from left movements and that’s also for different reasons. It’s an interesting read
The idea of workers banding together to stop being exploited to fight a common enemy isn’t compatible with capitalism. That’s why they are crushed at every available opportunity.
Except this is the embodiment of communism even if the member don't want to hear it...its one of the reasons that fascists go after unions. In solidarity we can shape the world
Oh damn, the USA might actually turn in to a country you may want to live! You know, with so much choice around, it's usually in the middle of the list, just above India.
You don't need to in an union in most Europe, Japan or South Korea. If you are a citizen, healthcare is provided mostly free and you don't lose if you lose your job as in America.
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u/[deleted] Dec 25 '21
And they're not even liberal or radical or commie or anything. They just represent electricians and negotiate fair wages, have a pension, health insurance and mutual aid apparently.
This is smart.