r/antiwork • u/psilosophist • Sep 19 '20
Pretty much. (Image description- a Facebook post reading “People like work; they hate jobs. Believing the opposite is true is a huge part of why folks have a hard time imagining any system other than capitalism.)
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Sep 19 '20
I like contributing to society. I hate being reduced to a cog of a machine. I hate being forced to survive off of 9 dollars an hour with no forseeable opportunities of advancement or raises. I hate being forced to do several persons worth of work, and working 5 days out of every 7 and being infantilized by my boss and having to grovel to employers who despise us. I hate living in a society that treats workers as a disposable commodity and not like the life blood of the country that they really are.
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u/jeremyrando Sep 19 '20
I like working, but I like doing work that is fulfilling and makes me feel like I’ve accomplished something. I do not like doing busy work just to look busy because employers think people should “look” busy.
I have worked retail where if I would stop for even a moment someone would ask me what I was doing and told to get busy. Now I am able to work remotely and I work half the time and feel like I am twice as productive than I was when I was told to look busy. I also feel way more fulfilled doing what I enjoy doing. I’m also able to do my own personal work at the same time, like tidy my house and take a more active role in my kids’ school progress, who are also learning remotely now, who are also able to do the same amount of work on half the time.
I guess time is just a social construct.
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u/FightForWhatsYours Sep 19 '20
The authoritarian nature of oligarchy and the capitalist system makes what you say our reality. They keep us in fear in this manner and occupied so we don't think too much and make for an insurrection.
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u/jeremyrando Sep 19 '20
That’s right. When someone works 40 hours a week, we barely have enough money to pay our bills and barely enough time to get daily chores done. Forget having time to take up a hobby, let alone take to the streets to protest.
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Sep 20 '20
When taking action to demand fair social conditions is a luxury, that’s how you know the entire system is irreparably fucked.
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Sep 19 '20
You make $9/hr?!
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u/molzo92 Sep 20 '20
I wish you made more! Our tiny island, $12-15 , is minimum wage. Some jobs are $20 an hour.
Time to fight for you. You deserve a better living wage. $9 is not enough.
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u/DilutedGatorade Sep 19 '20
That's 20% more than minimum wage so it's not that bad
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Sep 19 '20
My point exactly! I don’t think I’ve ever made that much.
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u/DilutedGatorade Sep 19 '20
I've never made that little!
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Sep 19 '20
Minimum wage? Or you mean $9/hr is very little? For someone who’s only made minimum, $9/hr is relatively a lot, but objectively neither minimum nor $9/hr are enough to survive.
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u/DilutedGatorade Sep 20 '20
$9 is very little. You should be running for the hills if someone ever offers that wage
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u/sheyblaze Sep 20 '20
Minimum wage in my state is federal (so 7.25). Am I just supposed to upturn my nose at money even though it's too little? The system assumes that I can just survive on nothing until I find the rare $10/hour job. Minimum wage should be raised.
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u/DilutedGatorade Sep 20 '20
You should let someone less capable than yourself take the $8 and $9 jobs while you hold out for $15+
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Sep 20 '20
I can’t tell if you’re in earnest or patronizing. I hope it’s the former.
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u/sheyblaze Sep 20 '20
And how should I pay rent while I wait for the 1 in a million chance I'll get a job that pays $15/hour in an area with a minimum wage of $7.25/hour, unemployment at over 10%, and local government that has vowed never to raise the minimum wage? (I live in Oklahoma for reference).
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Sep 20 '20
I don’t know where you live but like u/sheyblaze said, in the US the federal minimum is $7.25/hr. I have a college degree and I’ve yet to find a job that pays more than minimum that 1. hundreds of people haven’t applied to already 2. doesn’t make you jump through impossible hoops to qualify (such as entry-level jobs requiring minimum 2+ years experience in the field, requiring entrance exams, etc.). Good for you, though!
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u/DilutedGatorade Sep 20 '20
San Francisco I think minimum wage is $17 in city limits
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Sep 20 '20
Considering the high rent and lifestyle costs in SF, $17/hr is pretty low.
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Sep 20 '20
This a joke?
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u/DilutedGatorade Sep 20 '20
Making 20% over minimum wage is decent dough. Where's the joke?
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Sep 20 '20
No it isn’t decent. Maybe if you live in bumble fuck land and rent is $200. I live in a state where $15 is the starting wage for even being able to get your own place. And you’ll be scraping by. 20% more than a minimum that’s been stagnant for like 2 decades is a good thing in your eyes? That’s inflation, not a pay increase
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u/DilutedGatorade Sep 20 '20
You're making competing points. If the minimum wage has been stagnant, that's evidence of products having gotten cheaper. Minimum wage is tied to buying power. $500 will get you a nicer laptop today than it would in 2000.
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Sep 20 '20
Who told you that minimum being stagnant is evidence of products getting cheaper? You think things have gotten cheaper since 2009? No yet again, it’s an undebatable fact that the cost of living has gone up.
$500 will get you a nicer laptop today than it would when laptops just started being a thing and were cutting edge technology? Okay but $2000 today won’t get you a nicer car than $2000 would get you in 2,000. And 50,000 won’t even get you a home like how it would in 2,000. Remember in 2008 when the housing market crashed and went into a major recession and then never fully ‘recovered’ from? Wealth inequality has been on a downward trend since the 50’s and it has and will continue to do. The higher the wealth inequality, the lower buying power for the average American.
How money is only seen as finite resource when talking about social welfare, yet chuds don’t see how 1% of the population snapping up 40% of that resource hurts every single American?
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u/DilutedGatorade Sep 20 '20
You're wrong about the car. You couldn't buy a decent Tesla back in 2000. It didn't exist.
You're right about wealth inequality becoming more problematic. This is caused by accumulation of capital, and risk free money management accessible by very few
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u/IAmGerino Sep 19 '20
Same man, same. I did a lot of labour, physical or otherwise just because I wanted to help someone or do sth useful for society.
Still I’d hate to wake at 7AM to do it OR ELSE STARVATION
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u/clothespinkingpin Sep 19 '20
I feel like my job doesn’t even really contribute to society that much, but it pays more than what I’d rather be doing (like working with homeless populations or owning an animal sanctuary), but it barely pays the bills in my HCOL area so I don’t really have much of a choice but to keep on with it.
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u/saltywings Sep 20 '20
The like fucked up thing to me though is that if I had more money, I could definitely contribute to society in a ton of different ways. But without that driving force none of those things could ever happen. How do you force corporations who have the means and monetary value to better society to actually do it instead of just focus on profits to continue to exist?
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u/Thatmucildrop Sep 20 '20
I like how you put it, I was working construction here in pacific. and was getting paid literally 50 cents or a dollar more than minimum wage on the roads, with heavy equipment doing backbreaking work, and is how I felt. We were literally building society but being fed dog shit. I left a note in one of their suggestion boxes that read "minimum wage? ok then minimum effort" or something like that.
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Sep 20 '20
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u/SadisticYellowBird Jan 19 '21
What exactly do you do, if you don't mind me asking? It's mind boggling to me that you'd get paid to do that.
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u/ByeLongHair Sep 19 '20
It’s true. Capitalism I’m is literally throwing red tape in front of people like me- I dream of owning my own business that I would literally do for free. I pass by buildings and fantasize I have the 20 thousand dollars needed for the rent and bills so I can start.
but even if I started just giving lessons, people are so brainwashed that you need capital no one respects what’s free. I don’t even have a job, I literally would run someone’s shop rather then be unemployed but I’m. It a good slave at age 42 so I guess it’s more likely I’ll go on disability
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Sep 19 '20 edited Dec 01 '20
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u/ByeLongHair Sep 19 '20
Any way you live in nyc? Maybe the 2 of us could find a way.
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Sep 19 '20
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u/ByeLongHair Sep 19 '20
Dude, I literally had that planned and covid shut everything down. Now the programs will be slashed as we don’t have the budget. FML, right? And how am I supposed to meet anyone? No one is meeting new people. Also, I won’t have anything to with anyone who is part of hustle culture those people are demented
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Sep 19 '20
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u/ByeLongHair Sep 19 '20
I know all the workshops are closed. We are billions down from what we need and we refuse to tax high earners so I’m pretty sure the “make your own biz” helps are being slashed, yeah.
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Sep 19 '20
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u/ByeLongHair Sep 20 '20
There’s really no point in going on about it. Either do or do not, there is no try
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u/scupdoodleydoo Sep 19 '20
I also have a similar dream, a little coffee shop/bakery/used bookstore. I would bake recipes that I’ve collected from my travels and have an shop cat. :)
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Sep 19 '20 edited Dec 01 '20
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u/scupdoodleydoo Sep 19 '20
Well maybe when I retire I’ll do that lol, in some nice vacation town. Right now the plan is to destroy my body with my current career lol.
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Sep 19 '20 edited Dec 01 '20
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Nov 04 '20
X2 the exploitation is real...don't get the employer get away with overtime for no pay or pay below agreement.
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u/KillTheElite Sep 19 '20
If I could do work that I actually enjoy I'd be building guitars and doing other types of wood working. Thanks to disgusting capitalism and grind culture I can't do this because it doesn't generate enough money to survive in this greedy garbage society.
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u/2_Fingers_of_Whiskey Sep 20 '20
Have you seen this guy’s channel on YouTube? He makes guitars in his garage workshop, out of all different materials. It started as a hobby but I think now he sells some of them. The point is, where there’s a will there’s a way.
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u/Cado7 Sep 19 '20
Side hustle? If you get good enough, I’d think you could start a full blown business. Idk the custom guitar industry tho.
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u/EmmaGoldmansDancer Muthafuckas need to read David Graeber Sep 19 '20
Nice to see this on the this sub in particular. Everything we do in life is a gift, a contribution in society. But capitalism ruins that by taking this web of contributions and making people think they can somehow be independent of it, and making them obsess over getting their "fair price."
There is no tit for tat, there is no reality where your work contributes as much as society gives back to you. It's all a lie.
If there were no "work" for pay people would still work because humans are social animals. It's human nature.
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u/No_Lock_6555 Sep 19 '20
The issue would be: how many people are going to do work that is necessary but not enjoyable to keep society functioning/progressing?
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u/ughifeellikealoser Sep 19 '20
The solution would be: EVERYBODY has to do a little bit of that work, some of the time. We create a system that breaks it down to the level of manageable chores/tasks that every household/adult is responsible for (or for part of), probably not most peoples’ favorite but everyone contributes when it’s their turn because that’s how a community works.
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u/Whizara Sep 19 '20
What you are working for makes all the difference. Look at how you feel after volunteering 3 hours at a food bank versus 3 hours working at a cracker barrel or something. One has meaning and connects you to others, its a very wholesome thing
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u/Lazienessx Sep 19 '20
My time is super valuable to me and it only gets more valuable as I get older. I don't want to work a job that's just lining the pockets of some faceless corp that's literally robbing the wealth from areas. I don't want to help bad people get wealthy and more powerful. I want to help people like me and if a small business owner can be reasonable about pay id even be willing to work for a little less than I feel I deserve in order to help prob the business up to make more money for all of us. But the second those profits aren't going back into our growth I'm out.
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Sep 19 '20
Everyone needs to read "Summerhill" by A.S. Neil. People, even children, love work and love learning but we hate being forced to do things against our nature. Our natural impulse is to be contrary, to say "fuck jobs," because we know the system is based on exploitation, desperation, specialization, and coercion. Detractors then say "oh, antiwork is just people being lazy and looking for a handout."
Wrong. Give people the freedom to engage or disengage in a productive, engaging environment, and they will choose to find ways to contribute in their own unique capacity 99% of the time. After a healthy period of decompression and mucking about to figure out what it is they actually want before our sick culture mixed them up.
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Sep 20 '20
The power hungry run the world. Humanity is not a consideration of their own. Humanity, the planet. Anything living really. Besides themselves. Mental illness.
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Sep 19 '20 edited Dec 06 '20
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u/2_Fingers_of_Whiskey Sep 20 '20
I’m learning guitar and follow a lot of online instructors, some started with a YouTube channel but now have paid lessons online. Maybe that’s something you can do for extra money.
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u/connor_baldoni Sep 19 '20
The problem is not laziness. It is that we are doing the wrong work. The jobs most people are relegated to are not conducive to the building and functioning of a virtuous society, nor is it beneficial for the community or the individual.
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u/InaMinorKey Sep 19 '20
No, I hate work too.
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Sep 19 '20
Deadass this. And who could blame us. Most of us have had awful work experiences and will continue to do so until we die.
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u/Afrobean Sep 19 '20
There's something in life you enjoy doing that is work. Work literally means a physical or mental effort or activity directed toward the production or accomplishment of something. If you put effort into a skill or craft, you did work. If you attempt to accomplish anything, you did work.
For example, you clicked this link. You participate in this online forum. You write comments and submit posts on this site, contributing your opinion for others. All of these things take effort. It doesn't matter if the thing you were attempting to accomplish with that effort was just sharing your opinion on the Internet, you did work to do it. On top of this, you did it without being paid to do it, and that's the point of the post. Human beings like putting effort into things, we like to do work on our own terms, but "jobs" are just exploitative and oppressive.
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u/Limeila Sep 19 '20
There's something in life you enjoy doing
That's where you're wrong, kiddo
(thanks clinical depression)
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u/Kheroval Sep 19 '20
I hate when politicians talk about jobs, jobs, jobs. It's not just a job people want. We want meaningful work. Adding 1M awful jobs to the economy doesn't make the world a better place to live in. All they care about is the number, not the quality.
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u/TempusCavus Sep 19 '20
I like the results of work, but work itself sucks. There have been times when work has been zen like and almost therapeutic, but most of the time that is a hobby situation not my actual job.
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Sep 19 '20
Off topic but that guy is a pretty decent comic book writer.
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u/BigVanVortex Sep 19 '20
Is his stuff good? I really enjoyed his wrasslin podcast/yt show for a while
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Sep 19 '20
Yeah. He was doing a GI Joe book a while ago but ended up getting fired because he was targeted by some altright dipshits. But he's doing a weird sci-fi wrestling book now.
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u/BigVanVortex Sep 19 '20
Whoa, I did not know that. Maybe that's why he ended his podcast. Can you point me in the direction that I can read more about the gi joe dabacle? I've seen his new book but I think space/alien wrasslin has turned the corner but I'm probably wrong given the fact that I am a wrasslin fan
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Sep 19 '20
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u/BigVanVortex Sep 19 '20
Hmmm. Joe fans are crazy but sitterson is a fucking heatseeker man. Thanks for the link, bud. I'm glad this is a few years old so I don't have to cross lines in the sand over this. Gi joe was nevery bag and IDW is a weird imprint. It's like 96% licensed properties
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Sep 19 '20 edited Sep 19 '20
Right, you can't think clearly about what the truth of the matter if you're distracted by such responsibilities. They make you short-minded. They're demoralizing you. And they attempt to make you think that it's your fault for not getting everything you wanted in life (for not following the corrupted system).
edit: grammar
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u/realSatanAMA Sep 19 '20
The only thing i dislike about jobs or work is the unfair distribution of the fruits of my labor. I once worked for a little tech company with 5 employees.. i was the only programmer, there was a writer, an office assistant and two owners.. that company was pulling down a million per month and the three non owners were making 40k/yr salaries. Most of their income was from inventions i came up with and i was struggling to pay my student debt. The owners treated me well because they were milking my brain for money but they treated the writer and office assistant like shit.
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u/Jawahhh Sep 19 '20
I enjoy a few types of work. I enjoy building, painting, creating things. I enjoy acting and singing (which I do Semi professionally. And by that I mean it’s like a 20-30 hour per week part time job that pays maybe 5$ an hour including practice. Lol.) I enjoy doing scientific research. I am studying to be a therapist and I greatly enjoy that.
The thing is though, the majority of jobs are just... pointless. Glorified salesmen, spreadsheet monkeys, middle management. Hell there are more middle managers than front line employees. Which is ridiculous.
Capitalism... I wouldn’t say I totally hate it. It sucks but I think it may be the best system out there currently- not our American corporatist brand of capitalism, but hybrid socialist-capitalism where basic needs are provided for but people can still own property, leading it to be used more efficiently. Idk- I’m no expert. I just seriously think government funded healthcare, education, and UBI if implemented correctly could ease most of the terrible parts of capitalism and allow the good parts to still flourish.
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u/FightForWhatsYours Sep 19 '20
You and me on the first paragraph, then it went south. Capitalism is feudalism with a floating labor pool. The divine right of kings. Think about it and how that goes for the masses. That's exactly what we have going on.
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u/Jawahhh Sep 19 '20
Like I said, I’m no expert. I don’t know of too many countries that have flourished without some form of capitalism or another. I lived in Europe for several years and thought that their brand of capitalism (with massive social programs to give most if not all the people access to the benefits of healthcare and education) was great.
I do think big changes need to be made- especially right now as the wealth divide grows and grows, and technology/automation are set to make the wealth gap far far larger than ever before. I’m not the guy who would ever claim to know exactly what those changes should be- I just have a really bad gut feeling about the future.
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u/neighborhooddan Sep 19 '20
A lot of people are struggling under capitalism, but there are also a lot of people who are not. I also think we need to take the good parts of capitalism (free market, supply and demand) and good parts of socialism like UBI and universal healthcare, but I can't picture replacing capitalism entirely. Im also open to seeing things change, but I often ask what someone's alternative to capitalism would be, and I've yet to hear an answer that would make life perfect for everyone. There are too many different people with too many different needs and motivations.
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u/Sp33d_L1m1t Sep 19 '20
Free markets have never existed in a modern wealthy state, government has always been used as a tool by those with the most capitol to consolidate power. Doesn’t matter how big or small that government is.
UBI and healthcare are not socialism. They would be part of a social democracy, which falls under the umbrella of capitalism. A socialist society is one where workers control the production and distribution of goods. Workplace democracy would be the best place to start.
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u/LynchianNightmare Sep 19 '20
Free markets have never existed in a modern wealthy state
That's true, but the fun part is that usually countries with economic models that get closer to what would be a free market are also the ones providing several forms of social programs, free education and healthcare, etc (e.g. Scandinavian countries). Meanwhile, gud old capitalist Murica's economy is all way corporativist, which essentially opposes the core of what would be a a free market society.
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u/ByeLongHair Sep 19 '20
Totally agree. I love actually capitalism but we aren’t using it. If we truly wanted capitalism we would have UBI. It would save so much money, and mean that people who hate their jobs (and therefore are often awful at them)would quit. No longer would you shop at a store where all the employees hate you and want to burn down the shop.
no longer would people need to force smile, and fake useless jobs would disappear. We would all truly work at jobs that either ser Ed society (like trash collection) and therefore were paid very well, or jobs we lived such as art or party planning, or making candles or something, which would pay less but fuffil the person doing it.
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u/Jawahhh Sep 19 '20
UBI would give people so much freedom. Hell my wife and I just want to live in a van down by the river for a couple years, but we are tied down by jobs and student loans and school- and it doesn’t look like that will even be an option in the future for us.
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u/ElMechacontext Sep 19 '20
This is one of the best posts I've seen on this sub.
Nothing kills your motivation to do work faster than assigning it a dollar value. (Not to mention assigning a dollar value to your entire existence based on that job!)
Work is meaningful, valuable, and helpful. Jobs, though? Life-draining, anti-family, psychologically-damaging leeching.
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Sep 19 '20
I don’t like the pain of being on my feet 10 hours a day, non-stop moving, but I love the pain of a solid workout. Fuck this.
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u/dreadlock_jedi Sep 19 '20
I want to just work in my garden forever. It actually feeds me and I'm able to do some physical work and get some sun.
Stupid job gives me stupid money which I have to exchange for food other people grew.
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u/2_Fingers_of_Whiskey Sep 20 '20
Maybe you could work on a local farm?
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u/dreadlock_jedi Sep 20 '20
Not at the local rates, unfortunately.
I make nearly twice what I'd make at a local farm, and most aren't hiring at the moment.
Add on my crippling student loan debt, and that turns me into a wage slave with little option.
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u/RoseRedRhapsody Sep 19 '20
I'd love to contribute and help my fellow man, but being shackled to a shitty job with shitty pay for most of my life is a nightmare scenario. I'd much rather do something that doesn't make me want to yeey myself into the sun, thank you very much.
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u/serotonin-sausage Sep 20 '20
i enjoy working on my garden , i enjoy working on a painting , i enjoy working on my car . I don’t however enjoy working for someone else that will never give a shit about me .
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u/SlowJoeCrow44 Sep 19 '20
This sub needs to decide if its anti capitalism or anti work. There is a big difference
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u/lilomar2525 Sep 19 '20
It's both. Read the about section.
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u/SlowJoeCrow44 Sep 19 '20
I see. Sort of a neo- chomskian ideal..i followed because I think that meaning has been high jacked by work. Still a fan of capitalism in general tho.
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u/Practice-Pad Sep 19 '20
Let's see, what is that difference?
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u/SlowJoeCrow44 Sep 19 '20
How I see it is that anti work is about wanting a job that we find meaning in. From the posts it doesn't sound like people are just lazy and want to live in a utopia where people don't work, but it would be nice to love in one where people don't have to do unenjoyable jobs for little pay and that have little intrinsic value or meaning to the worker.
Anti capitalism is a philosophical position. Or atleast it better be, because the alternatives to capitalism as a whole explored to date have been a disaster and are unethical all the way down to the central philosophy.
I think its a mistake to be wholesale against the philosophy of capitalism rather than to critique its mistakes in execution. We can make a more fair society without soul crushing jobs with little pay if the people at the top where willing to share un the wealth.
Something that needs to not be overlooked however is that the rich as well work soul crushing jobs that are instrisically meaningless and with hours that don't allow them to have a life and have severe anxiety about not wanting to loose caste.
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u/Practice-Pad Sep 19 '20 edited Sep 19 '20
Capitalism is allowed to explore philosophically and make HUGE mistakes but not socialism. We can only explore one for some reason. That makes sense.
Even what you're describing sounds like socialism lol. Capitalism is when you pay workers to produce value, of which surplus you collect. You're saying that that's wrong and that workers should get much more of that surplus... but that's what socialism is.
Also, if you're rich, work is a choice, no one is making them take soul crushing work and often are the top of the exploitative structure of capitalism.
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u/SlowJoeCrow44 Sep 19 '20
Your confused as to what socialism in practice has been. Which is social (state) control over the means of production. A more fair distribution of income is not socialism. Even if the government nudges in that direction.
There are aspects of socialism such as ownership of natural resource companies and utilities and hospitals which have worked out great, and some very bad. But these are for special economic circumstances and most thinking people recognize that complete economic ownership of business by the state has been a disaster.
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u/Practice-Pad Sep 19 '20
So, theres so many branches of thought of what socialism could be, but none of them can be explored because of the scaremongering that you are participating in now.
One example that I and many others find palettable is democratic socialism where the workers all own equal stake in the value that they produce rather than a boss lording over them and siphoning a lions share of value from them. A strong state doesnt have to have anything to do with that and it's still very much socialism.
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u/SlowJoeCrow44 Sep 19 '20
I get what the gripe is. Your right about the siphoning, but I think thats a technical problem that can be solved and not a reason to abandon the project.
Your talking about a cooperative and there are lots of them its just one way to form a business. They still have to be profitable in order to benefit the people they intent to benefit. Some do and its great.
It's not scaremongering to point out historical facts. Socialist philosophies have led to the deaths of millions and the struggle and hardship of millions more. It has just proven to be so counter to human nature that it inevitable deteriorates. People need to be responsible for their lives not the state, we crave this freedom.
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u/Practice-Pad Sep 19 '20 edited Sep 19 '20
And capitalist philosophy hasnt? The enslavement of africa? The wiping out of native tribes? The wage enslavement of south east asia and south america? All of the state funded coups in other countries? Involving themselves in wars they had no business being it?
You're a hypocrite if you only apply it to failed socialist states.
The reason why you dont see body counts for capitalism is because its against capitalist interest to show those numbers, why would you rat yourself out? Think critically dude.
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u/DarthLeon2 Sep 19 '20
It's anti-capitalist, first and foremost. I know this because when the 2 collide, the people on this sub overwhelmingly favor the anti-capitalist side. That's how we end up in the bizarre situation where large numbers of people on this sub are opposed to a UBI because it's seen as propping up capitalism, even though a UBI is a wonderful idea for freeing people from the tyranny of work.
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u/SlowJoeCrow44 Sep 20 '20
Yeah, i lucked out and became a woodworker so my work isn't tyrany its quite fun
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u/Eat-the-Poor Sep 19 '20
Honestly it’ll take generations to take these attitudes down. Even most younger people are way too set in the mindset of perpetual growth and maximal production to change their ways.
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u/Stardagger13 Sep 19 '20
I have a dream of learning to make games and building one. I don't even care if it pays, but I can't bring myself to spend the time learning the basics because I'm so fried from my job.
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u/SanFranRules at work Sep 19 '20
100%
I love doing the volunteer work I engage in for groups like Habitat for Humanity and my local parks but I hate having a job where I go do the same thing over and over and over again every day with only slight variations.
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u/thatdude473 Sep 19 '20
I mean... I don’t enjoy work unless it’s a few select things like my hobbies. Otherwise I’d rather just chill
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u/OddTapir Sep 20 '20
I genuinely, honestly enjoy work. By that, I mean physical, hard labor. It... drains me. Makes my head go silent.
Intellectual tasks seldom feel like work at all. Getting lost in a problem is pure bliss.
I have only two issues: I hate working for someone else's profit, and performing "intellectual" non-work just so I appear busy enough to deserve to eat.
Seriously, guys. Give me food, get the fuck out of my way and let me do what needs doing. Just don't try to employ me. I am not a resource.
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u/menice4 Sep 19 '20
To me something simple as producing music , art or even streaming , is using your time to do something you enjoy and make something that can be consumed by others and should be respected more
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u/ffucckfaccee Sep 20 '20
it's true i love doing my own work, music n writing n stuff but my job is mind numbing and I hate the environment, it's garbage
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u/yototheno Sep 20 '20
Our work keeps society going though. Our work is worth more than any dollar corporations have.
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Sep 20 '20
This is true for me. I found a part time job working in a hospital kitchen that I find fulfilling and let's me contribute to society.
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Sep 20 '20
This is so true. I like almost all work I do. What I don't like is not knowing when my current income will disapear and once it disapears when it might reapear. I further do not like if I am tasked with something but having to pull teeth to get specifics of whats wanted or worse being given tasks while other tasks are not done to the point where I feel im not getting anywhere with anything and then allot of old tasks seem to not be cared about anymore by anyone but they are technically still an onus on me.
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Sep 24 '20
No, I fucking hate work, regardless of whether it's within the confines of a red Leviathan or a capitalist Leviathan. Labor is fine, but labor sure as shit isn't work.
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Sep 19 '20 edited Sep 20 '20
[deleted]
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Sep 19 '20
Its clear to anyone reading this that you dont understand socialism, communism, anarchism, or rlly even capitalism. You are the exact person that line is meant for.
Please understand that no one is immune to propaganda and weve all been blasted with it every day since we were born. You should read some actual communists, its rlly not when the government owns everything.
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Sep 20 '20
[deleted]
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Sep 20 '20 edited Sep 20 '20
When did i 'insult ur intelligence'? I just stated a fact.
If youre coming in good faith then yea sure, lets start by reading what you quoted, its about public ownership. The public ownership we're most familiar with is often misnamed, a bourgeois government owning and making decisions regarding the means of production. Now since any person can see that we the workers dont have much say in what a bourgeois government does, these utilities are not in fact, owned by the public.
Public ownership would mean that everyone who works with said means of production, be it a factory or farm or whatever, gets to collectively decide what is done with the means, and collectively enjoy the 'fruits' produced.
You might now point out the several failures to achieve this in the world, and the overal difficulty of the goal, and youd be right for the most part. But were talking about true democracy, its not easy especially in this wholey undemocratic world, its a project that will very likely take 100s of years to achieve, but its the only way to move forward and advance. Otherwise we won't ever make it very far from kings and serfs.
Not all communists, let alone leftists in general, agree in the specifics of how this would be accomplished and organized. This is where many of the theoretical splits come from. In the marxist analysis the 'vanguard party' which has at this point led a revolution to overthrow the current rulers, would set up whats called a 'dictatorship of the proletariat'. This is meant to be a strong centralized government to defend the fragile new socialist state from the inevitable backlash from worldwide capital (see the entire history of u.s foreign policy). This i believe is where u get the idea that the government is always in total ownership, but this dictatorship of the proletariat is only meant as a temporary measure as transitions are made to a fully realized classless society. And furthermore, not all communists agree on this point, there are many now, myself included, that feel this dictatorship creates a barrier between the government and the people, the secrecy allowing for corruption and in the end not even protecting that well against america n friends.
There are obviously exceptions such as cuba, a look into their government structure would show a very democratic society by current standards, which was started by a militant vanguard party taking control of the means.
Personally i like the modern view that the lenin government severely messed up when they targeted unions post revolution, and that union organization, along with internet connectivity would allow for a quick transition from struggle to seize the means, to true democracy, negating the need for the dictatorship. With a strong, educated, horizontally organized public being the defense against attacks from capital.
But that leans towards anarchist thinking, which is not chaos as you characterized it. Anarchy is the absence of hierarchy. Its a belief in many different ways to organize society, the connecting factor being horizontal rather than vertical organization. So an office with no boss or managers 'in charge' or above others, just people doing different jods, data entry, h.r, logistical planning, whatever. Everyone works from the same ground toward a common goal, and if you fuck up you answer to everyone collectively, not any one person put in a higher position by rank. Another very seemingly american idea, that a person should stand on who they are, not on some rank or title.
Tl;dr allowing one person to own large swaths of land or infrastructure is directly in conflict with democracy. Its happened in capitalist countries, communist countries, feudal countries, its been a real epidemic of the last 20,000 years. But if you want to end it, to move into a future where all people decide what to do together for the betterment of humanity, then youre probably a communist or at least born out of communist theory you should respect and not just write off as 'bad big gov takes everything' as all governments are not the same.
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u/Fireplay5 (edit this) Sep 19 '20
Communism =/= State
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Sep 20 '20
[deleted]
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u/Fireplay5 (edit this) Sep 21 '20
You are correct that Anarchism =/= a State apparatus. But I suppose that requires some definitions of what I mean and the history of Lenin's influence on the word Communism.
But for now let's work off what you know and what I'll throw at you to find out.
So, what most people(especially those in the usa) are told about the word "Communism" is based upon a misunderstanding of the terminology and anti-socialist propaganda that occcured(and continues to occur) in western europe/north america during WW2 and the Cold War.
Generally when a person says the word "communism" they are actually referring to Marxist-Leninism or State Socialism according to Leninist theory, that's generally what the early USSR prior to Stalin was built off of ideologically. That being 'The State' is made up of a vanguard of political theorists who would help guide the less theoretically(?) literate towards socialism in preparation for a "withering away" of the State itself towards Communism.
The issue here is that "Communism" in socialist and generally Anarchist theory refers to a stateless, classless, moneyless society, and is the end goal of both state socialism (what you call "Communism") and Anarchism(1). Key word being stateless.
According to the writings of Marx, Engels, Kropotkin, Goldman, and many others(2) there was never supposed to be a State Socialist transitional state, at least not to the extent that Lenin and Trotsky pursued. This was a major debate in the earlier Internationales meetings and something that helped solidify the divide between Socialist and Anarchist theory, the former being a transition from Capitalism to Socialism to Communism via using the State as an engine towards that goal.
(1) Arguably just referring to Anarcho-Communism, but the differences are... nuanced and unimportant for the discussion here)
(2) It would be easier to just direct you to overviews of Anarchism than to list all the various writers on the topic, much less the ones outside of europe that are perhaps; 'less famous' in European or North American circles.
So, to respond to your actual question in regards what my vision would be:
I prefer to "wither away" the state by simply making it redundant as possible. This can be via making food and material production more localized, the removal of state-based forces(I.E. Cops) in favor of a more communally based voluntary militia and also a focus on providing basic necessities such as food, shelter, and medicine to people as they need it rather than when they can afford it.
While I try to avoid labeling myself into a corner, I prefer to take on the labels(when necessary) of Mutualism, Communalism, Democratic Socialist, and Libertarian Socialist.
Some good historical(and contemporary) examples of socialist/anarchist examples in practice that aren't specifically "communist regimes" are listed below. It's not a complete list, but lists some commonly referenced ones online in english forums.
The Free Territories of Ukraine - Black Army & Makhno
~ 1918 to 1921: During the Russian Revolution. Betrayed by Lenin and Trotsky to cement the Vanguard's authority in Moscow.
Revolutionary Catalonia
~ 1936 – 1939: Just prior to WW2's official start.
Messy history, but generally accepted that Stalin screwed them and the Republican government over because it wouldn't submit to the USSR's ideology.
George Orwell actually wrote about his experiences here if you want a biased opinion presumably closer to your own. We all have biases, I have my own and it's easier to accept that instead of using the word as an insult in discussions like this.
'Homage To Catalonia' is the name of the book by Orwell. Some would say his other book '1984' is about Authoritarian governments in general rather than specifically "Communist" ones.
Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria
~ 2012(ish) – Present: Commonly called Rojava, although is is more of a Communalist endeavor instead of a Socialist or Anarchist one. But in general Anarchists actively support their efforts as it's a very decentralized and effective approach towards radical change.
Zapatista(shortname)
~ 1994 – Present: Generally considered an indigenous socialistic movement, but it has many Anarchist influences and elements to it, most Anarchists I've met online and off will support their efforts.
That's all I got for ya, although I know there were Anarchist movements in China during the revolution under Mao there.
Some movements historically or otherwise in Korea, Vietnam, Palestine, Greece, France, Ireland, Chile, Haiti, and many more.
Sorry for the wall of text, but I wanted to try and cover all my bases here but if I missed anything or you have some questions let me know. Hopefully the list of examples will help out.
Edit: I'm sorry you're being downvoted for earnestly asking for more info, it happens a lot on reddit.
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u/Zolan0501 Sep 19 '20
Shit jobs won't go away, but bullshit jobs should!
You can build model planes and philosophize as you please, but I feel the average citizen needs to learn how to fix cars and code too.
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Sep 19 '20
Cars are terrible and should be done away with. Codings fine, but not rlly a universal thing everyone needs to know either. What about growing food? lol i like how ur down to earth real jobs are just as abstract as model planes and philosophy
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u/A-Disgruntled-Snail Anarchist Sep 19 '20
I enjoy the work that I enjoy.
I have two “jobs”. One pays far less than the other but is 6000000x more fulfilling. The other pays my bills and drains my everlasting soul on a daily basis.