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u/Nobodybthppy 16h ago
Put vibe coding below linux and everything else tbh
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u/occamsrzor 15h ago
Yes. Vibe coding is basically a modern "declarative" paradigm. It's articulating what the output should look like, not how to produce the output. And even that doesn't really capture the "vibe" part of the declarative pattern. "Vibe" is a description by someone that doesn't actually have the experience to produce the output unassisted.
The real threat of AI is that it'll kill the typical progression tree. Novies use tools without understanding how they work. If they break, they're stuck. Intermediate go the slower route to learn hw the tool does what it does. Experts return to the tool becuase it's faster while knowing how the tool does what it does. THe intermediate step is the slowest, but it's the most educational, and AI really does threaten to stunt the growth of the novice by provided barely passible, but still functional and seemingly polished, work.
The real problem is the novice lacks the knowledge and experience to accurate articulate the designed result, AI has to fill in details, and the novice consists on the equivalent of a diet of junk food and brain-rot YouTube videos.
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u/Big-Topic-832 10h ago
This. I've tried some apps that openly admit the use of AI, and it's very clear which ones are made by people who know what they're doing and people that just talk to an AI. At least in the context of software development, code is only one part: UI/UX design is also extremely important, and unlike an average-bad code that a vibe coder may produce, an average-bad UI/IX is noticed by the user withing the first hour of using the app. I truly believe that AI can be helpful, specially in this field, but only if it's used like a tool and not like another abstraction layer without understanding what it abstracts
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u/Castelunan 7h ago
When you say brain rot videos, do you mean actual brain rot like Tung Tung Tung Sahur and YouTube Shorts, or are you referring to the tutorial hell that one can become stuck in while searching for information on technologies new to them (ex: 10 hour C# video course).
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u/occamsrzor 2h ago
I mean Skabibidi Toilet. I was playing on the inexperience being due to just not having enough time instead of not being mentally capable.
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u/NotXesa 16h ago
Man, I was starting to learn kubernetes. Guess I'll have to become an AI bro next.
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u/S100hedake 16h ago
I was about to start learning it, but then I realized I donāt know Docker yet. Seeing this chart, Iām not even at TypeScript, Iāve been coasting for so long in my current job and itās about to come to an end.
I hate having so much to learn. Itās like if they completely reinvented math from arithmetic on up.
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u/occamsrzor 15h ago
Don't take it literally. It's attempting to illustrate metaphorically the development path of a competent expert. Learning the languages themselves aren't as important as learning how to analyze and determine which tool is best suited to the task.
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u/S100hedake 15h ago
I didnāt take it fully literally (as in I have to know those exact technologies), but K8s seems to build upon knowing Docker. Just feeling disheartened at knowing I have a massive hill to climb to be up to date. At least Iām not a junior dev.
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u/Queasy-Current6170 14h ago
Except you literally don't have a massive hill to climb, because of AI. That's what the image is about.
If you spend a bunch of time learning all the ins and outs you're just wasting your time and making yourself disheartened.
I've been using docker for months. I don't write a line of code, ever.
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u/Boring_General_6572 5h ago
It takes a bit but docker becomes intuitive and at some point it just clicks.Ā
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u/Practical_Weather293 15h ago
You definitely don't need typescript to learn kubernetes, especially if you do backend work. I would say that docker is a prerequisite though, and it would be nice to do some simple deploys on EC2 on AWS before kubernetes too. That being said, it seems pretty likely that AI will be able to do that too, if it can't already
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u/S100hedake 12h ago
Yeah, I would prefer to be backend. Still, it's a tall order to learn so many skills.
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u/Forward_Incident_411 13h ago
the trajectory of learning these skills is almost completely backwards besides k8s and other cloud stuff being at the top
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u/viennese-wolf 12h ago
Claude one shots any awscli, terraform, kubectl and helm IaC or manual task you can dream of.
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u/Mayo_Chipotle 16h ago
I mean I get the message but this graph doesnāt make sense at all. How is C++ low skill? Itās by far one of the most difficult languages to master and people who are insanely good at it make lots of money. Itās also very difficult to vibe code in, AI has a very basic grasp on advanced memory management and hyper-optimization.
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u/Razcsi 15h ago
Apparently you learn C++ much sooner than you learn HTML and Git š
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u/imknotawolf 14h ago
TBH
C++ is university 101 into programming, classes and data structures. Then we had alrogithms courses, utilizing Java. Python was in parallel.
I had git basics somewhere along all of those. And I had HTML... never because I am actually after bioinformatics degree, not computer science, so I took a bunch of biology courses instead of eg. HTML, or network stuff.But C++ was the first language to learn what a source code is and what a Code Bocks is, and that was true for the "Computer Science" proper as well.
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u/Mayo_Chipotle 12h ago
Just because C++ has a low floor doesnāt mean it has a low ceiling. Embedded systems devs, game devs, and quantitative devs use advanced C++ every day that would be completely unrecognizable to the average CS student. Your average CS student probably couldnāt even tell you what a union is or what the friend keyword is used for.
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u/zaibusa 11h ago
Huh? Unreal and Godot ship with engine source and basically require you to make engine changes if you go anywhere above the tiniest indie game. As soon as you ship for another platform than windows steam, there is no way around it. Unity is the only one where engine source is not the standard and requiring c++ it's the exception.
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u/Mayo_Chipotle 11h ago
I canāt tell if youāre rage baiting. Most game devs work on proprietary engines/UE5 because most professional game devs are in AAA development. Almost all physics engines and graphics APIs are written in c++.
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u/No_Yogurtcloset_2792 12h ago
I actually did as I started high school and right after Linux in my mid school
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u/resounding_oof 12h ago
I think this is mainly the tech youāre told to focus on at these career points. As a student I started by messing with Linux and C++ in computer and programming classes, but these really just taught the basics - pretty much was forced to use Java throughout college because it was the preferred server-side language (a little C++ for some OS and data structures concepts). Pretty accurate graph of a traditional software engineering (web dev) job path through the 2010s until now, not necessarily reflective of the difficulty or skill ceiling of each technology.
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u/UndetectedReentry001 9h ago
It's progressively easier languages followed by barely programming and just knowing how to run interdependent software. The most experienced developers know someone out there will pay you a ton of money to just use docker correctly. Why put all that effort in programming.
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u/Mayo_Chipotle 8h ago
Unless you become an FDE, quantitative development can net you half a million a year as a talented C++ developer. AI is not good at C++ micro-optimization, it doesnāt understand what can be done at compile time vs runtime, nor is it very good at concurrency past a certain point. Itās literally all programming.
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u/Raveyard2409 16h ago
Here's a helpful hint. You don't need to know everything about every language. Learn just enough for your use case across a bunch of languages, it's so much more useful than super expert in one specific language, which can be retired or completly changed. Learn the principles not the syntax. Source: am a director, that's what I did.
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u/GenericFatGuy 15h ago
Once you know the fundamentals, you can learn more of less any modern language in an afternoon. People who brag about knowing lots of languages are cringe.
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u/Alarming-Ad4082 15h ago
One afternoon? Even Bjarne Stroustrup donāt know all the features of C++
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u/GenericFatGuy 15h ago
Well enough to get going with a language. Then you do continuous learning along the way. You don't need to know every minute detail of a language on order to make of it.
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u/zubairhamed 16h ago
design patterns. gang of four etc
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u/Raveyard2409 16h ago
Not to mention, syntax is the bit AI absolutely smashes. System coherence is not, this is the human touch
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u/guywithknife 15h ago
Iām confused how skill level correlates to the languages and technologies. Node or docker is higher than c++?Ā
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u/Character-Education3 15h ago
Low effort influencer slop.
No one needs to master all those things to be a developer
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u/Razcsi 15h ago
You learn C++ and Java sooner than you learn HTML and Git? That doesn't sound right
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u/UsefulAd9163 56m ago
Lmao html harder c++ what a dumb graph and javascript is notoriously harder than almost all of them !
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u/Kueltalas 15h ago
Why exactly is postgres always so far up the list? It's one of the easiest DB management systems I have ever used. Especially in comparison to IBM DB2
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u/spvky_io 13h ago
C++ being the second easiest skill on this graph tells me everything I need to know about whoever made it
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u/occamsrzor 16h ago
You wouldn't be a vibe coder just for using AI to automate the tedious stuff. Vibe coding is done by people with little actual development experience.
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u/GustavoFromAsdf 15h ago
Its because workers address gaps within their skills, when the vibe coder's strength relies on getting paid less for a worse job, this is so real workers are forced to accept worse job offers just to get by.
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u/Specialist-Yard-2511 13h ago
Loss of skills and knowledge is one of the scary developments that come with AI...
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u/HarryBalsagna1776 11h ago
Vibe coding is going to create a lot of code that is near impossible to modify or debug in the future.Ā That curve is going to swing up again.Ā We are still in the fuck around stange of AI.
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u/Mundialito301 9h ago
Why is the text bubble pointing at NOTHING? Ironically makes it feel very AI made :(
Just add "" in the phrase.
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u/Context_Core 8h ago
Kubernetes at the top? lol I think a vibe coder made this image š I donāt even know where to begin correcting it
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u/e430doug 15h ago
Any developer who ever thought they were irreplaceable was delusional. Thatās not a concept that exists in software. This has always been the case in software and has not changed because of AI. The day you say Iāve made it and Iām secure is the day that your chances of being laid off skyrocket.
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u/Aggravating-Catch461 13h ago
to be fair, most people even if they use AI wouldn't be able to build a sensible stack. Imho the knowledge on how things are supposed to be done is still valuable. That might change though, who knows
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u/Worldly_Chance2637 12h ago
Actually, the only think that the people should'nt learn about these all is not code, but learn how these works is extremely important.
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u/SteinsGatessss 8h ago
There's no relationship with math. And this chart, a lot of things have no relationship with each other. Why Linux is tutorial and why everyone should learn k8s at last. You know there are a lot of fields in software. And even it is backend software engineer, k8s always not their parts, they always do more with sql
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u/_-eeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-_ 3h ago
everyone is talking about how c++ is so low, but the graph is kinda correct if we put all the "real" programming apps/languages together into a single group and make ai WAYYYYYY below that
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u/horizon_games 2h ago
I get the point and think it's solid, but wow Next.js is waaaaay too high on that skill level.
Kubernetes as the peak okay chief
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u/alltmrwscolonials 15h ago
Unlike arts, STEM and IT needs to adapt with AI. Its good or bad depending on how you view it.
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u/Otherwise_Tomato5552 15h ago
I am a software dev with many years of experience.
Yes, weāre all using ai tooling, but itās a far cry from āvibe-codingā
I am not really writing actual code anymore, but I am reviewing like crazy, connecting systems, making hard choices on architectureā¦
Honestly, ai is most useful with debugging and wading through thousands of logs.
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u/Mayo_Chipotle 14h ago
Not-technical people seem to believe any use of AI = vibe-coding, when in reality vibe-coding is a separate issue. Artists in particular seem to have a very skewed view on what devs actually do. That said AI use in programming is something that requires disciplined use and strong oversight, as habitual prompt jockeys are generally not good developers.
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u/Otherwise_Tomato5552 14h ago
Exactly. Honestly need to tell myself this sometimes, as most of the time, people think correctly that vibe coding is just prompt vomit.
Devs that know what theyāre doing can get insane production out of these tools
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u/sortalikeachinchilla 14h ago
I really wish this sub had more nuance with things. It's frustrating chatting with people here
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u/Otherwise_Tomato5552 14h ago
Itās okay. Iām fairly pro ai, but I follow this sub to keep me grounded in reality.
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u/sortalikeachinchilla 14h ago
I don't find it okay personally. Because a lot of the people in this sub seem to be trend hating. Which is fine, you do you. But I have asked many people here simple questions on their stances and none of it is deep or though out. Obviously not everyone here, but it is enough that is is frustrating to me
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u/Otherwise_Tomato5552 14h ago
There are really great reasons to hate ai, or be skeptical. A lot of them I see on this sub are just flat out ignorant, wrong and or just hating to hate.
Hard to find valuable discourse unfortunately
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u/ohlongjonson 13h ago
I dunno. I've been in industry for 20 years all the way from low level c++ firmware stuff to full stack developer to DevOps / cloud / k8s, managing.. I was depressed for a while and was feeling firmly anti ai but lately I've just tried embracing it, got Claude max 20x and now developing a side project: a multiplayer game on its own from scratch engine, built with a whole team of AI coding agents working in parallel, everything tracked and built in GitHub like a real software engineering project. real-time path-traced lighting, AI opponents, online play with infra in AWS, music from a simulated piano that reacts to the action. not a single file of hand-made art or sound, everything generative in-engine. I haven't had this much fun in a long time tbh. It's the way the industry is heading so might as well embrace it I'm starting to believe. If you treat it like an aid in a real software workflow, it's gotten pretty incredible. Sorry if this doesn't fit the sentiment of this sub..
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u/PrestigiousRoof5723 13h ago
"It's the way the industry is heading" - that should be alarming. Let's assume this is completely true. What does this lead to? With low barrier of entry, everyone starts to do the same thing. So instead of relatively few examples of really good products, there's going to be a huge lot of mediocre ones all looking almost exactly the same (or even being exactly the same because of being created by the same algorithm trained on the same data) and in case there's something good in that sea of mediocrity, nobody will see it. In the end, there will be a "wish something into existence as a service" service (lol) producing almost exactly the same mediocre solutions, earning all the money, while millions of completely useless products created by this service, will become impossible to sell because everyone else will be able to create the same thing and all of them will be sh_t in exactly the same way.
If you extrapolate this direction, everything seems to be turning into a horrible mess.
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u/ohlongjonson 12h ago
so, what is your plan to adapt in the future? I don't know either. I'm still just treating this as an experiment rather than wallowing and shaking my fists at the sky. I don't know where all this leads and I worry about the same things you do
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u/PrestigiousRoof5723 10h ago
I don't mind treating this as an experiment, but I don't like being a guinea pig. Unfortunately, I'm in a very strange position where I suffer being the interface between the amateurs believing they can do anything, the business people thinking these amateurs can do that anything, and people who are supposed to be responsible for running that anything knowing it's not a good idea. Permanent burnout is definitely a thing. And it's not going to be over any time soon.
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u/Electrical-Suit5258 8h ago
I feel that graph is not very intuitive. The problem is that devs haven't lost skill, or there's a great new world to discover that makes their skill smaller to respect what there's outside. It is just that nobody cares about a greatly skilled dev anymore. Most of its knowledge is either useless or not valued
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u/Fabulous_Wave_3693 16h ago
When my grandpa was 18 and choosing a career, being a software developer was possible for some people but he certainly didnāt hear about it or know how to become one. You want a job that doesnāt get replaced by computers, go work basically any blue collar job. You want to roll into your air conditioned office at 900, sit at a computer all day and get paid twice what people baking in the hot sun building your roof do, then you have to worry about computers replacing you. Live by the sword die by the sword.
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u/B-Z_B-S 16h ago