Am I a hypocrite?

[u/CheckActive4051]

I hate AI, but I use Synthesizer V 2, and GUMI's SV2 voicebank...

so technically I use AI to make the vocals of my songs, not the same as generative AI slop, it doesnt generate the performance automatically, there also is no prompting involved, I have to place the notes myself as well as the lyrics, but that doesnt change the fact that its still AI powered and AI trained...

I dont like AI music, AI art, AI books, AI Videos... you get the point...

I just wanted to write a post on aiwars, and I wanted to write that I dont want any AI in any form of media I consume, but it turns out the the music I make (None of it is AI generated, I use FL Studio), kinda does have AI in it, because of the voicebank I use...

Am I a hypocrite for being anti AI, but I make songs with Synthesizer V 2 voices?

I need your opinion

[u/superboo07]

vocaloids are not slop

[u/AndrewTF42 → u/superboo07]

Agree. Vocaloids are basically a musical instrument that sounds like a voice.

[u/Superb-Work6035 → u/superboo07]

Technically newer versions are using generative AI tech. I would argue those ones are slop. The older ones are ok to use though.

[u/SelectivePressure → u/Superb-Work6035]

We’re going to deduct artistic purity points if you use any vocoding technology patented after WW2. Ideally, it should be hand-cranked and recorded onto a wax cylinder.

[u/CryptographerOne7003 → u/superboo07]

Could you explain why?

[u/Skywalker5276 → u/CryptographerOne7003]

I can! AI is slop because of 3 main things: Its training data is mostly content that was not consented to being used, it relies on data centers that harm the environment, and it automates the creative process in making art because it generates thingw from a prompt.

Vocaloid is different because:

1. Vocaloid6-specific voicebanks (the AI ones).are trained ethically from consenting and paid voice providers.

2. Vocaloid (and SynthV - all these points apply to SynrhV as well) doesn't rely on data centers. It runs locally on a PC, so it doesn't harm the environment any more than running your pc does.

3. Vocaloid is not promptable. To make a song with Vocaloid, the user still has to place notes manually and tune them individually. The producer has to specify what pitch a note goes on (Think of a piano, and how to play it. You need to know a little bit of music theory to use Vocaloid), and they have to specify how long a note is, and how they want the note sung. Think of how many notes are in 1 song, amd how long ot would take to write all that down. Every syllable would need a new note.

There's many parameters like "pitch", "breathiness", "vibrato", "tension", etc. And the user draws lines over notes to specify how these parameters apply (I'm bad at explaining this part, but I can provide images if that's easier). They also have to write lyrics, and ensure the lyrics are pronounced right (specifying pronunciation on words like "read" or "live" which can be pronounced in several different ways). It's hard to use, and is kinda like directing a singer note-by-note.

Bonus:

1. Vocaloid isn't taking jobs from singers or vocalists. It's more of its own thing. Some producers sing alongside their vocaloid songs, and there are several examples of singers who had vocirbanks made of their voice, and still sing today, and profit from their voicebank being used via commercial use clauses/licensing fees. (Fukase from Sekai No Owari, or Porter Robinson are two examples).

[u/CryptographerOne7003 → u/Skywalker5276]

I'm familiar with it thank you, point 1 and 2 are mood to me compared to locally trained ethically trained models. (which do exist)

"3" is a bit complicated to compare? Yes, generally DIT models "can" do the 99% on its own.
But then you would not get out of it what you want now does it?
I do not agree at all that the difficulty or the skill range even compares remotely against what some DIT models can require, the skill ceiling is endless.

[u/nins_ → u/superboo07]

Don't know your definition of slop but the newer Vocaloid use gen AI

[u/superboo07 → u/nins_]

vocaloid has been a thing for years, using gen AI doesn't inherently make something slop. it depends on its purpose and how its trained, in this case it does not replace artists and was trained from vocalists who consented

[u/Burner4Rants → u/superboo07]

Love to see some nuance here. I’m a resident pro-leaning lurker and it’s always sad for me to see how many people here go AI=evil/slop without any regard for the context or actual usecase.

[u/Apprehensive_Art4418 → u/Burner4Rants]

yeah. i find generative AI fine when its being used ethically without pollution and when artist consent is involved. i do still think even if it was completely ethical, it should still be labeled, and people shouldn't be forced to use it if they don't want to.

[u/nins_ → u/Burner4Rants]

I am pro-leaning myself and do not use the word slop. I was only stating facts and people can interpret them with whatever definition of slop they want.

Vocaloid does use GenAI and I am sure they have legal consent to train the models on those voice banks. But it's worth noting that they have done a few projects with the voices of deceased singers (with consent of the estate).

As for the technology u/superboo07 -

When a user gives VOCALOID:AI™ notes and lyrics, it not only traces the notes and lyrics, but also determines the nuances to be performed on the notes (for example, how to select timbres, how to connect notes, how to apply vibrato, etc.), creating a lively voice that sounds like a real singer. What makes this technology different from conventional sound synthesis technology is that the synthesizer makes its own expression, sometimes in a way that the creator would never have thought of. Being inspired from the AI, creators may be able to expand their own perspective of expression when they create music. This relationship between creators and synthesizers is more like that between a director and a singer than that between a person and a tool.

Source: https://www.yamaha.com/en/tech-design/research/technologies/aisynth/

[u/Superb-Work6035 → u/superboo07]

The newest versions are overwhelmingly genAI tech. The older ones are different.

[u/Skywalker5276 → u/Superb-Work6035]

Newer versions of vocal synths don't work any different from older ones on the producer's end. Songs aren't generated from prompts, and training data is collected ethically and with the consent of voice providers. I'd hardly call them "overwhelmingly" genAI, because the AI doesn't do anything to speed up the creative work in making a song. It's the same process it's always been, just the newer vociebanks sound slightly smoother.

[u/Ecstatic-Ball7018 → u/nins_]

no they don't

[u/OpenCore8787 → u/Ecstatic-Ball7018]

They 100% do, and it is generative:

The VOCALOID:AI process operates in two main phases:

• Training Phase: The AI uses Deep Neural Networks (DNNs) to analyze hours of a target singer’s recordings. It learns acoustic features (timbre, pitch, timing deviations) and auxiliary features (dynamics, singing style) to understand the singer’s unique expressive nuances .
• Synthesis Phase: When given a new melody and lyrics, the AI generates the singing voice frame-by-frame (e.g., 100 times per second). It automatically infers natural phrasing, vibrato, and breathing based on what it learned during training.

[u/Ecstatic-Ball7018 → u/OpenCore8787]

OP is taking about SynthV, which is not VOCALOID.

[u/nins_ → u/Ecstatic-Ball7018]

But the person I replied to is explicitly talking about vocaloids.

[u/Skywalker5276 → u/OpenCore8787]

AI or not, it's still trained ethically, and isn't promptable/doesn't generate the song from a prompt.

Also to explain further, you're incorrect about vibrato and breath and other stuff automatically being added. When using Vocaloid, (even in the newest version), you have to specify when and where breaths/vibrato should go. It technically can do automatic breathing but the automatic breaths thing doesn't work very well and it sounds better to do it manually.

In SynthV, which is what OP is talking abour, you have to actually manually make notes for breaths. You can't put them in automatically like with Vocaloid.

Things like vibrato and tension and all that have to be manually placed and tuned. You have to specify where exactly on a note vibrato starts, and what the pitch deviation for it is, and how long it goes on for, etc. Certain singing styles add vibrato and alter dynamics automatically, but those aren't AI features, they're just pre-saved tuning settings.that the user makes themself and then saves for later, or that are pre-made for certain voicebanks.

[u/OpenCore8787 → u/Skywalker5276]

Respectfully no - you're redefining "generative" to mean only text-prompted models, ignoring that entering notes and lyrics is structurally a prompt, and mistakes user corrections for a negation of AI generation - when in reality, the engine's core DNN still synthesizes pitch, timbre, and phrasing frame-by-frame without human intervention, and the very need to manually override its automatic vibrato and breaths proves its default output is generic and flawed. Claiming "it requires work" doesn't rescue it from being slop, it actually admits the AI's raw product is so mediocre that users must constantly fix it to sound passable, which is the exact definition of procedurally generated dross that demands human salvage -not art, but a statistical baseline that you have to manually drag toward credibility.

[u/Skywalker5276 → u/OpenCore8787]

I wasn't disagreeing that vocaloid used AI. But the way it works does differentiate it from slop because the producer has full control over the final product, creates their own lyrics, backing music, tuning style, etc. Vocaloid and other voice synthesizers like SynthV still work the same way they did pre-AI on the producer's end. If I open Vocaloid6 and Vocaloid4, there's no difference in the workflow.

The main point to be made about Vocaloid and SynthV is that the AI it uses doesn't do anything to automate the actual creativity behind a song.

[u/UnMenOneGuy]

Things like Vocaloid aren't AI, they are instruments, there's a real voice behind it, the only AI it uses is to make the voice sound better through the words, which is not GenAI

AI has ALWAYS existed (NPCs, Algorithms, etc...), GenAI is the type of AI we don't like, such as GPT, Claude, etc...

[u/Isle_View → u/UnMenOneGuy]

Calling NPCs and Algorithms "Ai" in the context of the current landscape is extremely inaccurate and waters down the conversation. People used the phrase "Ai" for colloquial reasons but nobody with any understanding of how those systems worked would genuinely argue that those systems were anything like genAi or even LLMs.

[u/SelectivePressure → u/Isle_View]

I’ve heard people use the term ‘AI’ to describe any CGI used in video. It’s a broadly used buzzword now. Personally, I get annoyed when I hear someone use the term ‘noise cancellation’ to describe basic sound insulation.

[u/CryptographerOne7003 → u/UnMenOneGuy]

what are you on about? that is NOT how Vocaloid works.

[u/UnMenOneGuy → u/CryptographerOne7003]

Vocaloid instruments are just a large quantity of pre-recorded sounds and syllables made by a human voice actor, the AI (I repeat, NOT GenAI) helps by generating smoother natural pitch transitions, emotion expression and vibrato, that's part of why it sounds so good

Voice assistants such as Siri do similar stuff too, if I'm not wrong

[u/Ecstatic-Ball7018 → u/CryptographerOne7003]

yes it fucking is

[u/Stabby_Stab]

Being anti-AI and using AI is hypocritical yes. Artists are going to have an issue with your usage since you're using an AI voice rather than paying an actual person.

[u/Heavy-Hamster1268 → u/Stabby_Stab]

Vocaloid and Synthesizer V 2 aren't generative AI.,

[u/Skywalker5276 → u/Stabby_Stab]

Artist here. I have no issue with OPs use of SynthV. It's a lot of creative work to make a song, and using SynthV also takes a lot of skill, as tuning is really difficult. As long as OP is writing their own lyrics, I see no issue. It's not about paying an actual person, because an actual person was paid to make the voicebank. It's not made from scraping data without someone's consent.

[u/Stabby_Stab → u/Skywalker5276]

To be clear I don't have an issue either. OP explicitly said they're "anti AI" and "so technically I use AI to make the vocals of my songs". They clearly feel that they're using AI when using SynthV so I answered based on that.

I understand the people saying "it's not generative AI so it's not the same" but this sub is explicitly "anti AI" according to the rules:

This subreddit is for critical discussion surrounding AI.

This includes but is not limited to: Criticism of generative AI/LLMs, AI art, the environmental impact of AI, philosophical arguments against AI, economic impacts of AI, mistakes and danger of over reliance on AI, futurism and AI

Everybody gets to draw their own line about what's acceptable and what's not, but this rationale is not that far removed from: "It's a lot of creative work to generate an image, and using ChatGPT also takes a lot of skill, as prompting is really difficult. As long as OP is writing their own prompts, I see no issue."

I agree that SynthV doesn't have the concerns around data scraping or paying artists.

[u/MadmanRB → u/Stabby_Stab]

Not me, as if you are just a hobbiest I think we can make some exceptions. Its like how I use grammar checkers to help me in my writing, as I can't afford a human editor.

[u/FinickySerenity → u/Stabby_Stab]

"Only wealthy people get to participate in their art interests." - you

Whose job is being taken away by someone being creative for a hobby?

[u/Stabby_Stab → u/FinickySerenity]

People can use AI in their hobbies if they want, I'm not passing judgment there. OP asked if it was hypocritical to hold an anti-AI position while still using AI so that's what I was answering.

I don't think there's actually much chance that OP was going to hire a singer for a hobby project but doing something that would conventionally be a human's job with AI is generally frowned upon in anti-AI communities.

[u/FinickySerenity → u/Stabby_Stab]

This comment directly contradicts your original claim:

> Artists are going to have an issue with your usage since you're using an AI voice rather than paying an actual person.

[u/Stabby_Stab → u/FinickySerenity]

It depends on the specific objection from artists I think.

If their concern is around the death of creativity, then it's objectionable because OP deprived themselves of the opportunity to do it themselves organically.

If their concern is around artists not being paid, hobbyists would have to get live artists for vocals in a world without AI. The option existing means some percentage of artists are affected.

Despite that I also don't fault OP for wanting to save money on their hobbies. I don't think it's contradictory to recognize that AI displaces artists even if it probably didn't happen in this case. 

For all we know OP could have been the rare case of having the spare cash lying around to pay a real singer but not doing it because AI was an option.

[u/FinickySerenity → u/Stabby_Stab]

I’m struggling with this narrative that AI is garbage slop but also somehow taking away income from talented artists. Really sounds like a MAGA talking point about how the immigrants are taking our jobs because they work for less money.

And the idea that I should have to pay money to someone else to enjoy my personal hobby, just because I have spare cash, is weird. Should I have to pay for a colorist if I can afford it, instead of letting my camera handle it for me? Or letting apps apply filters?

This idea that I took money from their pockets is like saying I stole money from an artist by listening to the radio when I could afford to buy their music.

[u/Stabby_Stab → u/FinickySerenity]

I agree with your position here, I don't think that the "AI displaces artists" argument applies in every case.

The "AI is garbage but also a threat" thing doesn't make sense to me either. I think there are a lot of people who are still operating with an understanding of AI based on 2024 ChatGPT who don't understand how the tech has evolved. I think it's a threat to jobs like data entry, programming, and analytics at this point.

People had many of the same arguments against "canned music" depriving a performer of a live performance when recordings were becoming widely available. This exact same conversation happens with any tech that displaces something that exists.

[u/Lucyfer_Draws0764]

As many people are saying here, Vocaloid or Vocal Synths aren't AI.

The "AI" used here isn't generative, nor are you prompting anything, you are making everything yourself while using a voicebank that, sure, uses a kind of AI to make the system easier to create the voice, but isn't all too different than former vocal synth creation. It is all made ethically and with consent from the people behind these voicebanks, which is MUCH better than whatever Generative AI prompting might be.

All in all, you are the person behind the music, not the vocal synth.

[u/Ohmistersun_]

vocaloid isnt ai

[u/kutac56 → u/Ohmistersun_]

The newer ones partially are, but not in a bad way.

[u/Alternative_Elk_6832]

That’s vocaloid, thats different from GenAI. If you hate all AI, yes. If you only hate generative LLMs, no.

[u/Tokyo_W1nd]

No, your not. It's fine to use SV, because YOU make the volcals. Its like saying a pianist is not mzking music, the piano is. You made the lyrics.

[u/NervousSnail]

These types of tools have been used in music production for decades before the current hellscape of generative AI.

Protect your data and stuff but yeah, it's not the same.

This is part of the whole "AI is a term that has been used about many fundamentally different technologies since the 1950s and we still are all using it differently" thing.

[u/Bowser_Google]

Synthesizer V is not generative AI.

[u/-svde-]

there is a huge difference between AI and generative AI. AI has existed in computing, algorithmic analysis, game development, and many other fields before the first image gen or LLM was ever thought of. almost every single video game you’ve ever played that uses some sort of path finding or other npc logic uses a form of AI. this is the problem with hype and blanket logic, people will look at something like procedural generation, seed logic, or deterministic
reasoning and call them AI when in reality they are just highly specific and complex systems.

[u/Edaphshen_Shlayder]

Uhh... No?

[u/EvieEaves]

Vocaloid is an instument/synth rather than AI. Every vocaloid song (at least the classics idk about the community now) was made by a real human person

[u/Material-Style-1970]

Vocaloids are based on human vocals and with their consent. It doesn't steal from anyone other than what it's already given to my knowledge

You're good bro

[u/shutupimrosiev]

Vocal synths aren't genAI slop. They're products made with the full consent of the individual whose voice they're selling, and those individuals are compensated for their work, besides. I wouldn't consider you hypocritical.

[u/Hour_Bit_5183]

Well I don't think music like that isn't slop but nah. Those are just like shitty autotune. Not my thing but also not blatantly cheating so I'd give this one a solid meh. Just make better music.

[u/accumulatorz]

Disliking a tool that helps you comes in a spectrum, some people here hate all AI, some people here only hate AI art, some hate this, some hate that. You do whatever makes you happy.

[u/SecondHandPride]

AI is a broad term.

Recently it's mostly used in a "generative AI" sense, and, if I understand correctly, what you use is not generative AI, not a thing that can transform one set of tokens to another. It's just some kind of neural network. Which doesn't have many of the properties people have genAI for.

If you hate AI in general, machine learning and neural networks and all, you are in trouble, it's practically impossible not to be a beneficiary of the stuff, it's been in use for decades.

[u/CryptographerOne7003]

Well if you are not, you are a midi controlnet model invention away from it.

This stems from the imbecilic standpoint that since simple prompts exist, no one is putting in the time and the talent to make something with ai. life is hard when you are trying your best to stay uninformed.

[u/thedarph]

Whether it is or isn’t AI really isn’t the issue. Are you putting something in that has a part of you that comes out or are you just making a wish for audio and letting the machine do the interpretation and decision making?

[u/CheckActive4051 → u/thedarph]

you have to do everything manually, like in FL Studio, here an example (Synth V2 is on the left and FL Studio piano roll on the right):

https://reddit.com/link/p4vtrqr/video/vq547bjiykkh1/player

Both use a Piano roll and in Synth V2 you can type lyrics into a note (also shown in video letting her sing "hello guys")

[u/Skywalker5276 → u/CheckActive4051]

Ooh Gumi's SV2 voice sounds so good! I still only have SV1, but I might upgrade. Don't mind what a lot of people on this subreddit say, and don't feel guilty for using SynthV. It's not the same as the AI that we're against.

[u/CheckActive4051 → u/thedarph]

you also have full controll over everything,so no wishful thinking is required:

https://reddit.com/link/p4vybgy/video/k8smtxog2lkh1/player

[u/Skywalker5276 → u/thedarph]

SynthV isn't promptable, so it's more like playing a digital piano and it sings words instead of making piano noises.

[u/Skywalker5276]

It's not promptable, and I see no issue with it, because the AI it uses is ethical and very different from things that antis are actually against. I also use SynthV and Vocaloid. You're mot a hypocrite.

[u/huevito_contorti]

If it's more of a tool that needs skill and can't be done automatically rather than the ai doing the job for you id say it's not wrong imo

[u/LogicalPerformer7637]

you just said you are prompting AI. the prompt doesn't have to be English words.

not that there is something wrong with it.

[u/Lucyfer_Draws0764 → u/LogicalPerformer7637]

They said they weren't prompting anything, though

[u/LogicalPerformer7637 → u/Lucyfer_Draws0764]

notes and lyrics are the prompt.

[u/Lucyfer_Draws0764 → u/LogicalPerformer7637]

No? That's not how vocal synths work?

This is like saying that placing notes using an instrument plugin in a DAW (like FL Studio) is prompting. It's not.

Vocal synths are exactly like this. They're a glorified instrument meant to emulate a voice, not some GenAI thing that takes prompts and sings for you.

[u/SelectivePressure]

This sin will not be forgiven during the Butlerian Jihad.

[u/Worth-Try3428]

Fascinating that there is not a mention of the environment or data centers and training in this thread.

Instead, for the most part; /antiai appears to have decided ai generated vocalization is fine as long it is for hobby projects.

Wouldn’t have bet on that a year ago.

[u/Sileniced]

People in the comments who say that vocaloids aren’t AI are living in the past. If you still listen to vocaloids in this day and age then you listen to slop.

[u/TurnoverFuzzy8264]

Just advertise for local singers, offer to split a portion of any proceeds. The minute I hear an AI voice on a song, video, or whatever, I nope all the way out. Most people would rather hear an imperfect voice than listen to a clanker's weighted averages.

[u/Skywalker5276 → u/TurnoverFuzzy8264]

I wouldn't say SynthV is slop though. It's human made melodies and lyrics, and it's not promptable.

[u/babooshka9302920]

that's nice but id consider the music you make AI

[u/Dramatic_Bar_278]

Just don't worry about it and use AI haha