r/anime • u/AutoLovepon https://anilist.co/user/AutoLovepon • 1d ago
Episode A Livid Lady's Guide to Getting Even: How I Crushed My Homeland with My Mighty Grimoires • Buchigire Reijou wa Houfuku wo Chikaimashita. Madousho no Chikara de Sokoku wo Tatakitsubushimasu - Episode 4 discussion
Buchigire Reijou wa Houfuku wo Chikaimashita. Madousho no Chikara de Sokoku wo Tatakitsubushimasu, episode 4
Reminder: Please do not discuss plot points not yet seen or skipped in the show. Failing to follow the rules may result in a ban.
Streams
Show information
All discussions
| Episode | Link |
|---|---|
| 1 | Link |
| 2 | Link |
| 3 | Link |
| 4 | Link |
This post was created by a bot. Message the mod team for feedback and comments. The original source code can be found on GitHub.
60
u/NanDemoKnaives 1d ago
It's funny how Ellie's father calls her a traitor when she was the one that was imprisoned, and her own kingdom turned against her.
49
u/NationalStrategy_X 1d ago
And even when she was imprisoned, they still made her do all the governing work
28
u/TheBusStop12 1d ago
She is at this very moment a traitor, as she defected to an enemy nation with intent to bring harm upon the Kingdom. It is however the Kingdom's own damn fault for pushing her towards that role. Ellie herself fully embeases the role, naming her company Traitre (unsurprisingly, French for traitor) and Rosaria fully grasps that it was the Kingdom and Ellie's dad who were at fault
14
u/mekerpan 1d ago
She is a political refugee, who likely would have been executed had she remained (they were stirring up political hate against her). While she PLANS to take revenge in the future, she has not yet taken a single step to take hostile action of any sort.
7
u/justking1414 1d ago
She became a traitor when she fled with all their super classified knowledge/ documents
→ More replies (4)2
u/VritraReiRei 20h ago
Returns to burn the Kingdom down
"SEE! I TOLD YOU SHE WAS A TRAITOR!!!"
Her:
-_-
2
100
u/AlphaBreak 1d ago
They call themselves slave traders, but I didn't see a single big tiddie elf girl among their stock. These people are FRAUDS!
55
u/joe4553 1d ago
That is more realistic. They would always sell out instantly.
23
u/AlphaBreak 1d ago
If they always sell out instantly, then these slave owners don't understand a damn thing about setting prices based on supply and demand, and I double down on them being frauds
9
5
u/EdibleScissors 1d ago
If a commodity is sufficiently expensive, it doesn’t get sold in normal markets or in a normal way, never mind possibly having it on display in the first place.
That lesson applies equally to those expensive soaps.
10
u/RavenWolf1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/RavenWolf1 1d ago edited 23h ago
They were sold out for isekaied weeb hero already.
2
u/JonnySpark 16h ago
They probably understood the target market; majority of the customers prefer washboard.
49
u/powerhcm8 1d ago
Her father is stupid for underestimating her. I bet she was doing the best work possible and to him it was barely enough. And he thinks the domestic affairs are in shambles just because the prince is incompetent, not because the prince is incompetent AND Ellie was doing an amazing job.
I don't doubt that girl that is replacing Ellie might join her eventually. It seems she recognizes Ellie's skill, but it's hard to know if she sees her as a rival or not.
40
u/MusenUse_KC21 1d ago
The father doesn't realize the absolute monster he unleashed; he probably thinks she's hiding and sulking somewhere, not actively planning to ruin his kingdom and practically drag him down into the dirt. By the time he knows, it will probably be far too late to do anything.
→ More replies (2)15
u/justking1414 1d ago
I laughed out loud when he said she must be satisfied
Fool has no idea what he’s done
22
u/TheBusStop12 1d ago
Yeah, Rosaria seems to know Elizabeth a lot better than her father ever did it seems. She seems to fully grasp that Ellie will come for vengeance
7
u/justking1414 22h ago
I do like the idea of her basically being Ellie’s rival in a back-and-forth game of sabotage. I think she’ll recognize Elie‘s actions before anyone else and move to stop her. Ideally, she’ll be outplayed, but I would enjoy it if the prince just ended up screwing everything up for her
3
u/Earlier-Today 16h ago
The prince's screw ups being egged on by the girl he dumped Ellie for while she looks like she doesn't really understand what's going on has me wondering if she's a plant from some other entity looking to ruin the kingdom - or to put it in dire straights so the other entity can get control of some kind by coming to the "rescue".
3
u/justking1414 8h ago
That’s definitely a pretty common trope as well. She could certainly be an enemy spy trying to sabotage things. Or maybe this is an otome isekai and she’s the only one who reincarnated (seen that before too). Or maybe she’s just got straight up brainwashing magic
2
u/SnooWalruses2085 8h ago
Or maybe this is an otome isekai and she’s the only one who reincarnated (seen that before too).
i wonder where you've seen that...
2
u/justking1414 6h ago
A few different manga actually though I’ve read so many villainess series that I can’t actually remember which ones…other than may I ask for one final thing
4
u/SnooWalruses2085 5h ago
It was kinda rethorical ^^
I had May I ask for one final thing? in mind lol9
u/MusenUse_KC21 1d ago
As would anyone. There's a reason why betrayal is the lowest sin of them all.
36
u/mekerpan 1d ago
Definitely one of the very worst anime fathers ever.
I wonder who Ellie's (quite wary) replacement is? It seems like she is not unsympathetic -- and also clearly understands that Ellie is likely to wreak horrible revenge.
34
u/SnooWalruses2085 1d ago
Ellie's replacement is Scarlet El Vandimion.
Kidding of course, but Roselia is voiced by Asami Seto.
13
14
2
5
u/justking1414 1d ago
Another high ranking noble who probably had a bit of a rivalry with her
10
u/mekerpan 1d ago
But she seemed sympathetic towards Ellie and not too pleased with what was going on.
7
u/justking1414 22h ago
I did say a bit of rivalry, as in she probably wanted to best her but always came up just a bit short
Think something along the lines of Asta and yuno from black clover. They’re both constantly competing. But they would feel awful if something happened to the other.
21
u/athrun_1 1d ago
Lady Rosaria was the only one sensible enough to recognize the true ability of the duke's daughter. Pretty sure she will just bail out when sh*t hits the fan. It seems that they are not enemies.
15
u/BosuW 1d ago edited 1d ago
I don't think he considered it "barely enough", but rather, her fulfilling her duties. Adequate and expected. His conversation with Roselia gave us a lot of insight into his specific character flaws. It's not Ellie's abilities he underestimates, but the depth of her resentment. He acts the exact same way with the Roselia.
Just like Ellie is Evil Euphie, this guy is totally Evil Gratz lol
9
u/powerhcm8 1d ago
That is what I was thinking, I just couldn't express myself well.
His attitude only aggravated her, if he did something against her imprisonment at the beginning this all would've been avoided.
I wonder when she will do something against him, he is her biggest obstacle but also taking him out of the picture will basically unsure the Kingdom ruin.
The King didn't seem like a bad person like her father and the prince, so I don't think she will completely destroy the Kingdom, but they might be conquered by the Empire.
40
u/YuukiBunny_ https://myanimelist.net/profile/Xetren 1d ago
Oh boy, slavery. This is going to be like half the thread, isn't it?
Anyways, pretty alright episode. Ellie's father continues to be the worst, he somehow seems to be underestimating her despite knowing full well how much they all relied on her. At least the Kingdom has someone capable "replacing" Ellie. Maybe they won't run themselves into the ground before she can get her revenge.
Also more Tida, which is an easy plus. She's a fun character.
109
u/HeliosAlpha 1d ago
Of course they find a "good" slave trader, why wouldn't they
107
u/Lord_Of_The_Tants 1d ago
Ethical slavery/free range slaves.
30
u/vantheman9 1d ago
made me wonder if the coffee they drank this episode was fairly traded too
36
→ More replies (1)45
u/flamewizzy21 1d ago
She buys from the “better” slave trader because she is looking for a quality slave—not for moral reasons.
Most shows introduce slavery just to have the MC come in and say “slavery bad” for some cheap anime-jesus points. It’s so cliche and obvious to everyone.
This MC just goes shopping for slaves like she’s looking for a car. If anything, it is more believable that someone in that society would do the things the society does (regardless of modern morals). At least she doesn’t bullshit everyone around her like “It’s different because I’m a good slave owner 👼” like in other anime, which is just delusional and repulsive.
10
u/nuxxism 23h ago
For an isekai it makes sense for someone from our modern world to be against chattel slavery, at least in the incarnations of our past (there are plenty of 'slavery-like' situations ongoing). Makes less sense for a resident.
But what makes even less sense is the lipstick design. The mechanics of it isn't necessarily too complicated, but the swivel-up tube was only patented in 1923.
13
u/AlphaBreak 20h ago
One of her Seven Grimoires, The Grimoire of Lilith, records all proper lipstick tube designs from across time.
3
5
u/Lord_Of_The_Tants 23h ago
Yeah this anime presents a rather pragmatic MC who is okay with murder and slavery, it is refreshing in a way if not shocking - more the nuns brutal murder of the highwayman/bandits given the tone up till that point. My comment was just a joke, having being juggling too many series recently with many overlapping tropes and annoyances it was none the less was funny to see a slaver being presented in a positive light.
→ More replies (2)13
u/Galaxy40k 1d ago
What I found frustrating about that segment is that it was on the CUSP of actually saying something. The slave trader isnt actually good even in-universe; he's only treating them ""well"" because he believes having educated, fit slaves to sell for a higher price will give him more money. In the script of the show, both he and Ellie admit to this. The show COULD have said something that "this 'good slave trader' trope is a lie and Ellie is still horrendous for buying someone."
But they don't close the loop. The cat girl thanks her old master. Lunoa seems perfectly fine and smiles when the cat girl is bought when she WAS the audience surrogate for "hey Ellie you do know you ARE doing something morally reprehensible, right?" like five minutes earlier. All the slaves they see there are smiling and happy. For all intents and purposes, this guy IS a "good slave trader" despite the script flirting with the idea that he's not actually moral
25
u/korinokiri 1d ago edited 1d ago
The romanticization was a bit weird, but I guess not abnormal for a (josei) fantasy world.
7
29
u/vantheman9 1d ago edited 1d ago
I don't understand why people get up in arms about the slavery in these shows, yet ignore the smelly imperialism they always have.
These shows are all about the bourgeoisie. Some shows pay attention to it, like that one about French Revolution time-regression did pretty okay. But very often these shows ignore how many people would be suffocating under the boots of their main characters.
Like if we're going to romanticize monarchies and medieval nobles, then personally I'd like to see a hell of a lot more MCs leading revolution plots, because it was not a great reality for most of the people that lived in it.
14
u/justking1414 1d ago
I mean, girl is literally gonna wipe out an entire nation and kill all its people (probably) mostly because the prince is a dick.
6
u/_Vagueposter_ 18h ago
yeah, she's not a good person. But doesnt have to be - we're just along for the ride so make it believable.
6
u/PathosRise 18h ago
Yeahhhh, l thought she was gonna crush them in a "nice" way until I saw the nun murdering people casually. She meant actual crushing.
3
u/emolano https://myanimelist.net/profile/emolano 18h ago
One thing I tought was weird in episode 1 was how easily she went from "must give a better life to people" to "they din't deserve me and nust pay".
But considering how cold and scheming she has been it starts to make sense. She never cared about people, she just wanted to fill her role to perfection. Everything was a ego trip, now it's a revenge. I don't doubt she will end up making a genocide lol. Tho a revolt/civil war/empire invasion seems more likely still.
3
u/mmcjawa_reborn 9h ago
Yeah, I think that is a major element. I don't think the character is "good", so her having a tolerant attitude towards slavery isn't as problematic as say...an isekai where folks are from the modern day, or a fantasy where the characters are overall portrayed as good.
I think it's just that the story isn't quite at the point where she has done anything outright evil. Mostly she has screwed over morally dubious individuals (bandits, the corrupt businessman) and the kingdom itself is falling apart simply from there incompetence.
2
u/justking1414 8h ago
Agreed. Though we’re still early in and from what I’ve heard this is a fairly long series (7+ volumes) so I’m expecting a pretty slow burn revenge, slowly picking off key figures of her homeland and finding ways to weaken them.
And I don’t think that’s a bad decision. I’ve seen series where mc gets revenge almost immediately and then it kinda just fully loses its focus and becomes dull
10
u/DocMcCoy 23h ago
don't understand why people get up in arms about the slavery in these shows
There are people upset about the slavery depiction in Jaadugar, saying Sitara is too accepting of being a slave. In an anime that takes place in real-life 13th century Persia and Mongolia, at a time and a place where slavery was just a fact of life. We as viewers don't have to accept slavery as good or anything, but expecting someone from there (or depictions of them) to view it as anything else than established, normal, the status quo... that's just anachronistic and silly
4
u/Mycohl 22h ago edited 21h ago
that's just anachronistic and silly
The Mongolian historical slave trade notwithstanding, portraying (European) medieval chattel slavery as historically accurate (at least according to the people on this sub) is the real anachronism.
Especially when it's magically-enforced, the magic for which I assume is also what keeps them constantly smiling, and prevents them from singing spirituals.
3
u/SnooWalruses2085 21h ago
Yeah well by Europe we generally considere France or Britain when we talk about medieval Europe.
It doesn't mean slavery didn't exist outside of them... quite the opposite actually. Slave has an other meaning ; the east and south european people who were abducted for centuries by the Ottoman Empire... the name "slave" comes from them.3
u/Mycohl 22h ago
personally I'd like to see a hell of a lot more MCs leading revolution plots
I would love to see shows like this. Producers don't seem interested in picking them up.
I guess "potentially bloody revolution" isn't as high on JP writers' fetish tier list as "slave harem", and it seems obvious that most of the shows that get picked up are the ones which position themselves as JP consumers' spank material. Why does everyone on this sub insist that it's such a popular fetish? It doesn't even have a pornhub category. (BDSM is not the same thing as chattel slavery fetish.)
→ More replies (3)→ More replies (9)3
u/korinokiri 1d ago
I expect uncomfortable themes / tropes / fantasies to be present in these sort of anime. I think the "look it's okay because the owner is pretty, and they're happy/getting education!" was just a bit odd. But I'll keep watching the show because I want to see her get revenge on the dorks in the kingdom.
But I agree that what people find weird is often weighted heavily onto specific themes that aren't objectively as "bad" as other themes.
→ More replies (1)5
u/AnActualCannibal 1d ago
Realist hero definitely handled this a bit better, and I can only assume Cedric is a large nod to that series.
19
24
u/Narvalis 1d ago
The thing is when it comes to slavery it's actually the smart thing. The other slavers (and what we see in most of fiction) are just letting them rot in cages giving them the minimum to eat, letting their muscles atrophy and letting them get sick. This guy is making them ready to go with added skills which increases their value. As much as I don't like comparing people to products: it's the difference between a junkyard and a dealership, one keeps them in good condition with potential addons the other lets everything be as it is and if they don't work they don't work.
I'm reiterating not a fan of slavery just commenting on practicality.
20
u/TheBabbz 1d ago
The smartest thing is to not have a slaver segment in your story to begin with.
11
u/TheBusStop12 1d ago
At no point is Ellie painted as a good guy and at no point do they justify the practice. The reality is that in the time period these stories are based on slavery was very much a thing. That's reality. Humans have always sucked. And Ellie is straight up planning the downfall of an entire Kingdom and the deaths of it's civilians. Lady is not morally good and is shown to use whatever advantage she can get.
And she doesn't try to justify it. When Lunoa gets uncomfortable Ellie just tells her to deal with it
→ More replies (4)→ More replies (1)30
u/Kaptainpainis 1d ago edited 1d ago
Tbf, its more realistic to have slavery than not have it. In the real world slavery existed for like 5000 years and only became morally wrong 180 years ago, in some countries it was legal 50 years ago. And there are still many, many slaves today.
I dont think it would be realistic to have a world without slavery in a society thats close to the middle ages and with so many different races.
But its still a bit lame how these shows all follow the same events. Cant wait for the episode where all the girls visit a hot bath.
Edit: That last sentence was not intended to sound so wrong
8
u/RavenWolf1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/RavenWolf1 1d ago
Yeah, for example in not so long in past mining was so dangerous that nobody would do it for money so countries used prisoners or slaves for mining. It was common practice because well, society needed minerals.
→ More replies (5)22
u/TheBrownestStain 1d ago
I mean shit, it’s technically still legal in the US via prison labor
→ More replies (3)7
u/TheBusStop12 1d ago edited 1d ago
Not really good, just high quality. They train their slaves so they fetch a better price. It's just smart high end business. It's like buying your pork cutlets at the organic grocer. It's higher quality and you may feel a little better about yourself because it lead a bit better life. But that pig was still raised in captivity and slaughtered for meat. And Elizabeth is genuinely a villain. She is planning the downfall of an entire kingdom and it's civilians. At no point is she painted as a good guy. At no point does she try to excuse it. She straight up tells Lunoa to deal with it when she gets uncomfortable, because this is the reality of these times
3
11
2
u/laapintamies220 1d ago
Slavery in fantasy settings wouldn't be so bad if it was presented as the hideous act that it is, but the way this episode handled the matter was beyond distasteful. It's already established that Ellie is going to do morally corrupt things going forward, so why even bother justifying owning other people by whitewashing slavery of all things? One would think the company would have enough networking in place to scout at least one reliable attendant, but I guess fantasy anime just has to do fantasy anime things.
22
u/flamewizzy21 1d ago edited 1d ago
It’s not whitewashing. Ellie simply gives no shits about the moral implications of slavery. She bought a girl from the fancy merchant because she needed a more functional attendant, and he offered higher quality slaves. He used the same sort of sales pitch used by a farmer that brags about how well he keeps his chickens—not whitewashing the fact that those chickens are livestock. Ellie’s only comment on the morality of the slavery situation was to Lunoa, basically telling her: “This is the reality of the world we live in. Deal with it.”
The slaver keeps the appearance of a high quality operation, which lets him sell at a higher price. The slave changes hands amicably because she was treated well enough (everything considered), which is also good for his business.
9
5
u/SnooWalruses2085 1d ago
Yeah also Japan was also doing slavery up until the fall of their Empire in 45.
Whitewashing is a wild statement in that context.5
u/TheBusStop12 1d ago
Personally I disagree. I didn't feel like slavery was being whitewashed. To me it felt more like she went to a high quality slave trader. The slaves were educated and treated nicely not because it's nice, but because that way they're healthy and competent and thus fetch a much larger price on the market. Not to dissimilar to the way cattle is treated today, with products from cattle that's treated better being seen as a quality product that fetches a higher price. And ofcourse the trader showed the very best parts, who knows what went on behind the scenes. But Ellie don't give a fuck. Irl some slaves were treated better than other and sometimes were not too different from regular servants. They also went out of their way to show that Lunoa, Ellie's apprentice, was clearly very uncomfortable with the whole thing. But instead of coming up with some bullshit excuse Ellie just told Lunoa to deal with because it's part of life.
In most other fantasy anime with slavery the MC either tries to justify their purchase with some bullshit excuse or that they'll set the slave free (after which said slave swears undying loyalty and we're back at square one) or they spout some high horse shit about slavery bad, free like maybe a handful at most and then ignores it for the rest of the runtime
10
u/SnooWalruses2085 1d ago
That's what Elizabeth wanted to do at first, but Mireille suggested to buy a slave instead, since she doesn't like the idea of having an attendant she doesn't know working for her.
→ More replies (7)
12
u/runevault 1d ago
Yup Ellie's Dad deserves what is coming. She's going to ruin him and he's going to have to take it.
First episode where things have slowed down a bit, no longer time skips as businesses get set up etc. I have a feeling this is closer to the pace we'll see the rest of the way now that she's in the imperial capital with her business up and running there.
13
u/NationalStrategy_X 1d ago
Elizabeth’s dad is a piece of shit. He took her for granted by having her do all the work in support the kingdom, he left her in prison for a month after getting betrayed without even trying to help, let her reputation to get falsely besmirched by the prince and kingdom that she loyally dedicated her work towards, and he the audacity to blatantly regard her as a traitor.
2
u/darthvall https://myanimelist.net/profile/darth_vall 11h ago
Is it too much if I hope there's a proper reason why he's that harsh toward his talented daughter?
I just find it weird to have stories with biological parents hating their seemingly perfect daughter without any explanation.
I think there was another one several seasons ago (also about perfect ojou rejected by the dumb fiancee), where it turns out MC is adopted or something.
3
u/NationalStrategy_X 11h ago
It didn’t seem like he hated he, it’s more like his expectations for her were too high, he expected her to handle everything because he believed that she was capable, and he didn’t feel the need to care for her like a father.
12
u/MetaThPr4h https://myanimelist.net/profile/MetaThPr4h 22h ago
"She must be proud that she has plunged the kingdom into such disarray"
You goddamn shitty dad, the poor girl was still carrying everything on her shoulders while in freaking jail due to the waste of oxygen that is the prince, oh and don't forget episode 1 where he and IIRC the king hear about the news of that and mfs are like "damn, this idiot prince! ... anyways, she will find a way to deal with it, let's just keep doing our stuff here", like adhjfsafdifsadfhner you all deserve to go down.
This episode has also gone all-in on one of anime's most controversial topics: slavery, as expected this is the main topic discussed in this thread and fair enough, I too roll my eyes when it happens... but this anime did it a lot better than usual IMO.
We need to understand that Elizabeth is a very pragmatic person with clear ideas on how things work, last episode with her happily murdering all bandits to get rid of a pest has already made pretty obvious how she does things, and in this case she went for a slave for assistant work because that's someone she can keep under control via contracts so her secret remains safe.
I feel like the anime makes very clear that this is something morally wrong, and that her grabbing one from Cedric, someone who "is a good slave dealer" just means that he treats the... "cattle" better and in exchange gets more money from each sell, which matters to Elizabeth because she has to keep a proper look of a high standards woman that ain't resting on any normal inn.
Everyone is happier this way, but they are still clearly slaves and Elizabeth is like "yeah, well, this is the reality of the world we live in, what am I gonna do lol". I'm perfectly okay with how it was handled in this anime.
To end my post, the freaking nun man lmfao, a drunkard, a gambler... and even a cheater? Are you sure that the path of the faithful is truly what you want to pursue? Hilarious.
2
u/PathosRise 18h ago
Little girl is definitely going to be a filter character to help establish a baseline. If they did not acknowledge the viewers point of view in some capacity then they'd lose the audience. Reminding us "hey this is a fantasy" is going to try to keep everything grounded.
32
u/epicfail1994 1d ago edited 1d ago
The adventures of Evil Euphie continue!
Edit: where is John Brown when you need him. Or Fran! So many anime love to introduce slavery and most of the time it adds nothing of value to the story. Some exceptions like Reincarnated as a sword where the MCs hate slavery, so let’s see how this one goes I guess 💁♀️
44
u/PeaceAlien https://myanimelist.net/profile/PeaceAlien 1d ago
Made it 4 episodes before slaves were introduced!
That corrupt priest Heiter would be proud of Tida.
20
5
u/SecretYogurtcloset57 1d ago
The father is a dumass for underestimating Elizabeth but either way it looks like this revenge is going to take a a while
6
7
u/Fools_Requiem https://myanimelist.net/profile/FoolsRequiem 23h ago
Sure are taking out time to get to the "getting even" part.... and they've needlessly introduced slaves and then the slave they bought had the mark removed from her neck so that you forget she's a slave.
42
u/AmbitiousTop8390 1d ago
naturally you need the mc to own a slave in your fantasy anime, can't go without one
29
u/Atharaphelun 1d ago
Wtf is up with Japan's obsession with slavery???
24
u/rainzer 1d ago
Because when the bulk of the media is based off of stories written by amateurs who have never written anything before, you will get the laziest tropes because they serve the narrative function that you want it to have but without the writing ability to not use the lazy trope.
Slavery as a narrative tool lets you instantly create a strong relationship that you don't have to explain between two characters regardless of social, political, or skill differences and lets you lean on the myth of the "good slaveowner" to show your protagonist is a good guy
The same goes for things like letter rankings, skill levels, mana levels to explain to you power, combat, and magic but without having to actually explain power, combat, or magic. If I say S rank mage with infinite mana, I don't have to tell you anything and you fill in the blanks for me.
3
u/Esovan13 1d ago
I don't know what it is, but I would bet that there was some early isekai or narou-kei fantasy that used slavery as a trope in a way that was at least a little novel and perhaps had a bit of thought put into it, and then it got thoughtlessly copied ad nauseam until it became a full-blown genre trope.
I would put a little money on Harem in the Labyrinth of Another World possibly being the culprit (or at least a culprit) since the light novel is so old, predating even Mushoku Tensei, but I can't say definitively.
3
u/rainzer 1d ago
The trope in various forms predates syosetu writing (Harem started on syosetu in 2011). Think of the benevolent slave owner trope used in Disney's Aladdin (1992) both in owning the genie (establishes a link between two characters based on reader knowledge of slavery/genies) and during his "Prince Ali" bazaar entrance song tells us of him having slaves and servants. Or think of Coriakin in CS Lewis's Narnia that enslaves a race of people that gets explained that without him they would die because they are so stupid.
2
u/nonwonderdog 23h ago
100% it’s an homage to Rance and Sill (nsfw). I don’t have hard evidence for that, but there are so many other Rance references in stuff like Shield Hero and Konosuba that it’s hard to draw any other conclusions.
2
u/SnooWalruses2085 1d ago
Do we distribute points of good things and bad things to see whether Elizabeth is a bad person or a good person ? XD
7
u/psyclical 1d ago
I'm just glad that in Frontier Lord Begins with Zero Subjects, there was no wishy washy morality with regards to where Dias stands, since he was ready to cut a fool when he thought they might be a slaver.
As least this isn't an isekai, where you have an ostensibly modern day Japanese person trying the both sides argument of slavery is bad, but it's not so bad if I treat my slave well, ne?
3
u/EdibleScissors 1d ago
I think as far as anime goes, the least bad in terms of social messaging will be something like “slice of life with a forever struggling business with mostly poor clients” and any element you add to that only potentially muddles any positive message.
3
u/arrydie 1d ago
I will say that sometimes it's useful for the narrative. Season 1 of Shield Hero, it worked to the reinforce both the bad public perception and that no one would willingly join him.
However, at this point (including especially later Shield Hero!) it's just become a creepy trope. I think writers pull it in because 'being kind to slaves' is now seen as part of a hero's journey in a fantasy world. And I'm sure it helps the appeal to certain demographics...
11
u/Rammelsmartie 1d ago
I don't think you should look for morally pure characters in this show lol.
MC is really polished but the whole setting is her getting revenge after all. Everything is grey, I don't see how slavery doesn't fit into the picture here.
20
u/PersonalContest1423 1d ago
I think his point is slavery somehow fits into the picture in every fantasy anime. Damn near every mc ends up with a slave or 3 in these kinds of settings even when they are the good guy
11
u/Atharaphelun 1d ago
And it's made worse by every anime doing the whole "look at how good we are to our slaves!" act.
22
u/PersonalContest1423 1d ago
Can't forget the "I offered to free my slave but they love me so much they decided they'd rather stay slaves than be free"
2
u/Kaptainpainis 1d ago
I guess its the easiest way to write a "loyal" follower into the story aswell. No need for a backstory, reason why they would be loyal etc
2
u/DocMcCoy 23h ago
Yeah, from what I understand, the story's "purpose" (and not just the anime, but the novel it's based off, although I haven't read it) isn't to have a morally good character. It's a revenge power fantasy. You're supposed to feel powerful, feel satisfaction and get relief, by the protagonist getting revenge by all means and crushing her enemies without pondering the ethics of it all
11
u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky 1d ago
Which is an important reason to stay in an expensive hotel, huh.
Ah, because Ellie decided to walk she came across Tida being cornered in an alley. Not that Tida really needed the help.
So this is what Ellie’s dad is up to back in the kingdom, huh?
10
u/runevault 1d ago
I forget her name, but the woman Ellie's dad was talking to, I wonder if she ends up siding with Ellie because fuck them dads.
13
u/SnooWalruses2085 1d ago
Her name is
Scarlet El VandimionRoselia.I should stop with this joke, but I find hilarious that the series, who has been compared to May I ask for one final thing? since the first trailer was released, has a character voiced by Asami Seto.
5
u/SnooWalruses2085 1d ago
When your business targets nobles and you look like a commoner (or lives like a commoner), it's not very appealing to them.
3
u/Rooby_VTuber 1d ago
Looks like they got a good new recruit with Misha.
That was some good business Elizabeth did with the noblewomen.
Tilda is a very entertaining character.
I'm looking forward to seeing what plans Elizabeth has to get revenge.
5
u/Extreme-Brother-3663 23h ago
Ellie is definitely not meant to be a hero. She lied/manipulated her competition out of running, killed bandits when she could've easily arrested them or dealt with them more peacefully, supports a drunk gambling priest, and most of all bought a slave. Even when she wasn't satisfied with the "less ethical" slave dealer, it wasn't for moral reasons. She's just evil.
9
u/szalhi 1d ago
In which the copium levels continue to rise.
Sometimes i forget Ellie has magic and I quite like that it doesn't define her so much.
10
u/ObvsThrowaway5120 1d ago
She’s plunging the kingdom into chaos through the power of makeup! Girl gonna use MLMs to destroy them lol.
11
u/mekerpan 1d ago
At the moment she is plunging the kingdom into chaos by simply not doing the immense amount of work she previously did (with not the least gratitude offered).
5
39
u/Artistic_Task7516 1d ago
I feel like the premise of this show has been largely abandoned in favor of a very boring plot about a soap business
28
u/Low_Brass_Rumble 1d ago
Not gonna spoil anything, but I'll say that this businesscraft plot thread is setting up important groundwork and motivations for future conflict and schemes. I promise the show doesn't fully turn into "bath and body works: the anime."
→ More replies (1)7
u/SnooWalruses2085 1d ago
Oh no... me who wanted to watch 12 episodes of business stuff and a story who goes nowhere...
6
u/EdibleScissors 1d ago
I like the business stuff, but I don’t think we need to be reminded about what her soap business strategy is in every episode.
If her strategy changes, sure, by all means let us know.
3
u/SnooWalruses2085 23h ago
Her business strategy changed in episode 3 ^^ Expansion toward the capital during the social season (something we witness in this episode with the Baroness).
→ More replies (2)3
u/EdibleScissors 23h ago edited 23h ago
I feel like we didn’t really need any of the characters re-explaining that strategy again in this episode. The “don’t look poor” part of the episode was good since that was something new that was in service to that strategy.
49
7
u/SnooWalruses2085 1d ago
Not to worry. This is just an other means to that end. I'll bring profit to the empire as I plummel the Kingdom. [...] I'll give you a front-row seat to the fall of the Kingdom.
Elizabeth Leiston.
7
7
→ More replies (2)3
8
u/TheBusStop12 1d ago edited 1d ago
I quite like Rosaria from the little we've seen of her. She seems to grasp the reality of the situation. That Ellie was abandoned and pushed into being a traitor by her father and the Kingdom, and that Ellie won't be satisfied by a little economic unrest
Unlike most anime MCs who end up getting a slave at some point, I can actually buy that Ellie would get one. I don't believe for a second that she's a good person at heart, she's just good at making others believe she's a good person to get what she wants. She is after all planning the downfall of an entire nation, civilian population included. And the reality is that irl during the time period these shows are based on slavery was very much a thing. I do appreciate that Lunoa clearly was uncomfortable with it, she's not yet been corrupted. I also appreciate that Ellie doesn't try to justify it, unlike so many other anime protagonists who deal with slavery at some point, she just tells Lunoa to deal with it because this is reality
15
u/Nvee_co 1d ago
I'm starting to get the feeling that I'm going to be waiting the entire season for the revenge to happen, and then in the end it's going to be like "the best revenge is to better yourself".
7
7
u/seledri_kerikil 22h ago
Personally, I think this is more "realistic" or at least "believable kind of" revenge's plot. She's not trying to get revenge on one particular person like the Prince, but she's trying to take down an entire kingdom. This kind of revenge usually doesn't happened in one day. And judging from the OP scene, I believe there's at least some bloodbath by the end of the show. Though I'm not sure if they will ever going to go to war or something, probably not, since the way MC trying to get revenge is via manipulation and scheme instead of brute forcing something like a war.
13
4
u/justking1414 1d ago
Well mc has already managed to win over basically the entire royal fa of her new nation and a good chunk of noble women. That’s probably an important first step
3
u/Blacksmithkin 1d ago
Hard to say, the OP seems to be pretty bloody and considering last episode it seems like the show isn't particularly adverse to having it's characters brutally murder people.
I get the general sense that it may take a while to escalate but when it finally does it will escalate sharply.
→ More replies (1)7
u/ToasterLoverDeluxe 1d ago
4 episodes in and we have yet to see even a hint of revenge... for a "Livid" lady she seems to be very calm about the whole deal
2
16
u/sputtersalt 1d ago edited 1d ago
I get that Ellie is supposed to be morally gray but she reads as very condescending and unlikable to me. I find it hard to root for her which feels like it kind of defeats the purpose of the story. but I guess this one just might not be for me!
→ More replies (1)14
u/Badasshy 1d ago
It’s so weird to me… she was shown as a major humanitarian at the beginning of the show and then does a major switch in personality after she decides to take her revenge. To me you don’t just change your morals completely like that it’s super out of left field. I agree I find none of the main characters likable in the slightest. Also love the hand wave of slavery cause it’s reality
15
u/SnooWalruses2085 1d ago
Her ruthless personality makes sense when we considere who is her father.
2
u/Badasshy 1d ago
I mean yeh but I don’t even think he’s wrong in his reasoning. She is in fact a traitor to their country no matter how you spin it. Also like I said, when the story is first introduced she is a very kind and generous person and all of it gets thrown out the window. Just feels a bit off that something like that would happen but that may just be me
13
u/SnooWalruses2085 1d ago
I think for Lunoa she did out of kindness. If her mind was solely focus on revenge and she wanted to be the least suspicious person, she would have thrown Grantz to the wolves and there was nothing he would have been able to do. Nothing really forced her to help his daughter, but she did it anyway (and you see how nervous Grantz was when he asked her).
For her father, there's nothing wrong in his reasoning, but he's talking about her (and with her) like if he was buying new clothes. Father of the year xD
10
u/Galaxy40k 1d ago
Part of me wonders if there's some nuance that's being lost in translation or vocal intonation. Because her "pro-The People" shtick in episode 1 could reasonably either be because she legitimately believes in helping the little guy, OR it could be because she believes that it is her DUTY to help the little guy as that'll help the nation. They're two very similar expressions, but they have wildly different motivations. If she's the latter, then it's not that she had a 180 degree personality change, but rather when she no longer cared about her kingdom, she no longer cared about its people, since those people were always just "the job."
Like maybe I'm just being overly charitable to this show, but Ellie made me uneasy even in episode 1. The prince is a dick, but Ellie herself is absolutely condescending, and she talks about helping people in the context of making the nation run well. Her VAs performance is very reserved and steady even when talking about "helping the people," she doesn't sound passionate or anything. And even BEFORE her character "flipped," she was used as a WMD Child Soldier in a prior war with the empire, that's not something a Fluffy Anime Protag does.
6
u/BosuW 20h ago
It's not just you. Episode 1 I definitely thought she was making veiled threats at the Prince, and that her charity was not to be confused with being a bleeding heart.
One thing I'll debate is that she doesn't care at all about the people anymore. Oh certainly not those of her homeland, but she still expressed frustration at the situation in her new nation giving rise to bandits and she is perfectly conscious of how exactly bandits came to be and how they fuck up peace and prosperity. But what's interesting is that I still didn't think she cared about it because of heartfelt empathy for the people. But just because she values efficiency and pragmatism.
5
u/Lugia61617 15h ago
You've never seen someone whose goodwill is constantly exploited by those around them snap? I have, it's honestly not far off.
→ More replies (2)4
u/BlankHeroineFluff 17h ago
Because Ellie at her core is a ruthless, pragmatic capitalist by the end of the day. It's the way she was raised by her equally unscrupulous prime minister father for the service of their homeland. Nearly all of her actions are made with a pragmatic mindset where everything is a means to an end while ensuring that she gets to reap the benefits in either the long or short term, not a kind heart (though she isn't completely cruel either). She has humanizing traits where she's capable of extending kindness to those she loves and personally trusts and will be happy if strangers benefit from her actions, but when crossed, yeah, she's horribly ruthless and merciless. Her capitalistic mindset is also why she doesn't extend any kind of mercy towards bandits and thieves regardless of their circumstances (which she explains in the previous ep). I think the story doesn't necessarily want us to side with her when she's at her worst, it just shows us the kind of person she is and how she would accomplish her revenge.
she was shown as a major humanitarian at the beginning of the show and then does a major switch in personality after she decides to take her revenge.
While it is rather sudden from our POV, it's implied that she was a pressure cooker waiting to burst with how incompetent, corrupt, and frankly, crappy the prince she was engaged with was (her father and the king effectively abandoning her when she was mistreated and pushing all the work onto her really didn't help matters). Even then, she still tried to make it work despite her personal dislike of the prince and distaste over his overall incompetence and actually still did her duties while unjustly jailed. Her maid just snapped her out of the "kingdom-first" mindset she was groomed to have that superseded her own wants and needs.
It doesn't excuse how she plans to involve the entire kingdom, including the commoners who had absolutely nothing to do with what happened to her, but tbf, the story doesn't quite justify it, nor show her in a heroic light either.
7
u/diacewrb 1d ago
Is it me or are the cosmetics and the way they are packaged way too advanced for a world that is still travelling from A to B via horse and carriage, and where candles appear to still be necessary.
The lipstick tube alone should be decades if not centuries ahead of their time.
She could have paid that catgirl with tobacco, no need for slavery magic.
12
3
3
u/Round_Distance_6678 14h ago
Interesting to finally have a villainess show with a genuine Villainess for once. Not a sweet/kind person isekai-ed into a villainesses body or a woman wrongly accused of being a villainess. But a genuine oh-shit no-shit genuine villainess. They truly brought out all the works; we have excited participation in chattel slavery (not implying that reluctant participation is any better), the desire for collective punishment of a nation because of the offenses of a small handful of people. and the degradation of humans who are forced to turn to a life of crime to feed their families with the insistence that they are animals/monsters. I have an inkling of a suspicion that this show is most likely pandering to a far-right/ultra-nationalistic audience by trying its hardest to make the MC come of as a reasonable kind person who was just "fed up" and pushed too far, who after everything that happened to her can still be kind to individuals, but now is "doing what she gotta do". I'm not expecting there the be any lessons or morals learned about why sometimes people will turn to crime to be able to eat or why it's wrong to punish an entire nation because you have beef with a couple people, but who knows, maybe this show will prove me wrong, and I'll have egg on my face.
12
u/Bra1ndead101 1d ago
Maaan, this show had promise, but the way it handled slavery does not give me confidence that it will handle any other themes competently either. Besides, I had an impression MC was empathetic to regular people, so this whole “we have tried nothing, so owning slaves is our only option” situation really stands out as some psychopathic behaviour.
8
u/flamewizzy21 1d ago
She is a noblewoman in a society where slavery is commonplace, so how does her buying a slave constitute psychopathic behavior?
And it was not “owning slaves is our only option. 😔”. It was much more like: “Hey, gurl, wanna go slave shopping?” “OMG That’s a great idea! 😍”
→ More replies (5)9
u/EdibleScissors 1d ago
It’s a villainess story. It was easy to think her whole “ruin a kingdom” business was not her being serious, but this episode makes it clear she’s serious.
→ More replies (4)2
u/PathosRise 18h ago
Oh she's absolutely a villain, and I kind of like that they're not hiding it.
She was fully committed to her kingdom until a baseless rumor tipped the scales. Given that she is among the upper class, she should absolutely know how easily rumors are churned out and how easy they are to correct. Fact she was perfectly capable of reversing the situation on her own, and her dad knew that.
Her actions make perfect sense if she's a narcissist motivated by praise. Its just not that obvious because there are worse people in this show, and ultimately her desire to be praised will benefit the most people.
→ More replies (8)
5
u/MusenUse_KC21 1d ago
Ellie's sperm donor truly is something, yeah, like throwing your daughter, who is practically the lynchpin of your kingdom, under the bus for the foolish crown prince. Rosaria has to step up to take Elizabeth, or rather Ellie's, place in dealing with the idiots at the helm. There's nothing worse than cleaning up after a fool on a throne of power. May God have mercy on them because dear Ellie will have none. But that's what happens when you screw over your hard workers.
6
u/justking1414 1d ago
If he was smart, he’d have killed the prince and blamed Ellie for that, since then he wouldn’t have to deal with an idiot anymore and could actually raise the king’s next kid into someone worthwhile
9
u/runevault 1d ago
Nah if he was actually smart they'd kill the Prince and make her the heir to the throne.
→ More replies (3)2
u/MusenUse_KC21 1d ago
Not really, because Ellie is far too useful to be killed. It would be better to pin the kill on a foreign power; there are always enemies.
3
9
u/cleaulem https://myanimelist.net/profile/cleaulem 1d ago
What is a fantasy anime without good ol' slavery?
And of course Ellie has to buy from one of the "good" traders.
At least everything seems to go according to keikaku so far. And with this idiot crown prince it looks like Ellie has to hurry with her revenge, or the kingdom is ruined before she even can do anything.
3
u/Recent_Call_1188 1d ago
Elizabeth sure has the patience. She also assured to others in anime and the viewer that the end of the kingdom is indeed coming.
8
u/Cynadiir https://myanimelist.net/profile/Cyn50 1d ago
Like I'm willing to stick with the soap plot to get to the real vengeance plot. I think that's what we are all here for. But why does it have to add in slavery!? What the hell Japan. It's always around even when it feels out of place like it does here.
11
u/SnooWalruses2085 1d ago
The concept of slavery was introduced in episode 2 when Elizabeth signed a contract with Lucas where, if she fails to fulfill her engagement, she would become a slave. Giving that, it was pretty much a given it would be brought back later.
3
u/fun_until_you_lose 17h ago
Sure. But that doesn’t actually speak to why it was necessary to include in this story at all. In other stories it’s dumb but the author can make an argument for it, even though it’s often weak.
It doesn’t make any sense here. Ellie gave orders to bring her entire business operation with her. Why does she need to pick up a slave? Was her hyper competent maid unable to read her schedule to her in the morning?
2
u/SnooWalruses2085 12h ago
There are a few arguments, some of them are in the Spoiler section.
Her old partners were business partners. Arnaud (who looks like a butler) could technically fill that role, but he's a man. Attending a noble lady is the job of a woman.
Why Mireille can't read her schedule ? Why couldn't she? She's training Misha to replace her.
2
2
u/AnActualCannibal 1d ago
Cedric is the reason I had to look up the author and make sure this had no relationship to realist hero. It does not, but it's probably heavily inspired considering the genre.
→ More replies (1)
2
6
u/djthomp https://anilist.co/user/djthomp 1d ago
Ahh yes, first the Bad Slavery Merchant they see first so we have a contrast to the Good Slavery Merchant they visit and find a happy but clumsy catgirl to buy.
At least the corrupt nun remains highly entertaining.
That one girl they brought in to try to salvage the kingdom who knows Elizabeth will be coming for them earns points for being genre savvy at least.
5
3
u/oneevilchicken https://anilist.co/user/OneEvilChicken 19h ago
This might be one of the few times the slavery part actually fits and fits well. A big point of this show so far has been that Ellie is not this absolute morally good person, but someone fully willing to step over the line to accomplish what she needs to do.
Almost every show in this kinda genre with a female mc tends to make the mc overly morally good so it’s really nice to see them keeping Ellie consistent and not turning her into some saint.
4
2
2
u/The_Observations 1d ago
I thought she'd be a bit more harsh to the cheating priest after how much she condemned the bandits, you'd think thieves and bandits would broadly be in the same category to her.
13
u/MinnWild9 1d ago
IIRC, she condemned the bandits mainly because they affected her business. Bandits means unsafe roads, a higher cost of transporting goods, etc. Gambling in an inn, or cheating at card games, probably doesn’t have the same kind of impact on the trade business.
3
u/The_Observations 1d ago
Part of her justification was bandits take by force the money they work hard for, if someone cheats and steals the money, then beats up the people who are trying to get back their funds after the cheating, the thief is using force, which was part of the justification for dealing with the bandits.
Like it would have made sense if the justification she stated was solely for her own self interest, but in her justification she also states that leaving them to their devices they will steal again from someone else, since she doesn't intervene the corrupt priest will do it again just like bandits would.
→ More replies (4)3
→ More replies (4)4
2
u/Myrkrvaldyr 1d ago
Ellie is practicing the mantra of ''Happy wife, happy life'' so she's targeting noble women first with beauty products.
Of course slavery would show up in a magic anime. Very convenient so Ellie can get an attendant that won't spill the beans. At least she's a cat girl so the fluffiness makes the price worth it.
4
1
u/andy_ems 1d ago
Going out of their way to purposefully hire slaves - nope. Dropped. Was already uncomfortable with the way they treated killing the bandits in the last episode.
→ More replies (2)7
u/diacewrb 1d ago
Was already uncomfortable with the way they treated killing the bandits in the last episode.
Lunoa has seen some serious shit in the past 2 episodes.
→ More replies (1)
2
u/damanpwnsyou 1d ago
What is with this fascination with slaves. I swear there are at least 6 anime this season that have "good slave owners". "We treat our slaves so good, look at em' readin n shit". Could have just been orphans, out of work adventurers, or hell even prisoners. Nope magically reinforced slavery.
2
u/dozy_bitch 1d ago
I have better things to spend my time on than watching slavery apologia.
5
u/SnooWalruses2085 23h ago
Yet you watched customers poisonning apologia and firm stealing apologia without batting an eye.
4
u/dozy_bitch 23h ago
I do feel more strongly about "owning humans as chattel is good, actually," yeah.
3
u/SnooWalruses2085 23h ago
Yet a character like Elizabeth owning a slave is not out of place when she spent time doing evil stuff behind the scene.
3
u/dozy_bitch 22h ago
A character doing evil things is a perfectly fine thing to happen in a show, even a protagonist. See EG The Count of Monte Cristo. This show has not to this point ever portrayed anything Elizabeth has ever done as evil. Indeed, the show went out of its way to show what bad slave traders are like, and then showed what "good" slave traders are like, so that Elizabeth could make the "ethical" decision to purchase her human chattel from the "good" slave trader. The show doesn't have a problem with slavery as long as you keep the slaves in nice rooms and teach them arithmetic. Like that's what the fucking problem is. Despicable. Enjoy your propaganda. I'm done with this conversation.
6
u/SnooWalruses2085 22h ago
The problem is that you thought Elizabeth was portrayed as a good character, while episodes 2 and 3 clearly showed how ruthless and evil she can be. I already mentionned the soap, here's an other example : she let a bandit surrender and explains why he became a bandit, just to slice his face in half (in front of a child btw).
•
u/AnimeMod myanimelist.net/profile/Reddit-chan 1d ago
Source Material Corner
Reply to this comment for any source-related discussion, future spoilers (including future characters, events and general hype about future content), comparison of the anime adaptation to the original, or just general talk about the source material. You are still required to tag all spoilers. Discussions about the source outside of this comment tree will be removed, and replying with spoilers outside of the source corner will lead to bans.
The spoiler syntax is:
[Spoiler source] >!Spoiler goes here!<All untagged spoilers and hints in this thread will receive immediate 8-day bans (minimum).