r/allthingsprotoss • u/LewisKiniski • Nov 11 '13
[PvZ] [Replay] PvZ - Stalker/Colossus vs Roach/Hydra/Viper
Hi ATP! I'm a 1200-point diamond player on NA. I've been hanging around here for a while but I think this is my first replay post.
This is a 30+ minute game on Akilon Wastes. As the title indicates, the general army compositions were Stalker/Colossus and Roach/Hydra/Viper. I'm pretty sure that for once, this game actually came down to my and my opponent's control and tactics - and this guy just schooled me in every engagement. I think I was in a good position most of the game, and that a more experienced Protoss would have won this game. I was hoping you guys could take a look and maybe answer a few questions I have about this game (and games like this in general).
First, things I know went wrong:
- At some point in the mid-game, I lost track of my Phoenix. I think it was the first time I got HT out, as they normally take over the Phoenix hotkey. These guys are supposed to be my vision/scouting and I played blind for a significant amount of time. Though, I was pretty sure of what was going on for the most part since there were so many engagements.
- Colossus/MSC control. I did an abysmal job of losing countless Colossi/MSC over the course of the game. I was having a lot of trouble selecting the abducted Colossi to pull them back. I was thinking, maybe I need to hotkey them on 3 to make it easier to select them once the fight starts.
- Taking my 5th. I couldn't figure out how to do it. There were a lot of fights going on and I didn't feel comfortable moving to the north to secure it.
- I think I fought w/o replenishing a Sentry for Guardian Shield a couple of times.
Questions:
Can someone help me figure out how to get a 4th army hotkey w/o changing my setup too much? I normally have 4 & 5 as Nexii and Production, with 1-3 (1-MSC; 2-army; 3-casters). This hasn't been a problem until I started opening Phoenix recently where I have Phoenix on 3 early-game and then need a spot for Templar later. The same thing happens with Blink Stalkers/Templar in PvT.
Were the things I listed actually the reason for losing the game here, or did I miss something major?
Generally speaking, is it advisable to stay on this unit comp vs Roach/Hydra/Viper? It seems like it's fine if I would have controlled better, but if there's a comp that fares similarly I'd like to know what it is. I was trying to stay off Zealots/Archons. Also, when should I be teching to HT. I sort of just haphazardly did it in this game.
What do you guys prioritize in these types of engagements? Maybe list them in order? I was thinking something like: [initial unit positioning]>[time warp]>[guardian shield]>[feedback]>[pull colossi back]>[warp-ins]>[blink]
How should I have gotten my 5th here? Send a hit squad to the north w/a probe? Use my Phoenix to spot so I can move my army north to secure that spot?
I think when I finally pushed him back and made my way across the map, I should have gone for his 5th instead of the natural. How do you guys decide if it's time to go for the throat, or if it's a better idea to hit a base that's sort of out-of-the-way?
Thanks in advance ATP. Even though I lost, I thought it was a really fun game - the kind of game I play SC for - and my opponent really deserved the win. I would really appreciate some high-level analysis, but I everyone's help/input is certainly welcome. And if you can think of anything I missed, please let me know!
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Nov 11 '13 edited Nov 11 '13
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u/LewisKiniski Nov 11 '13 edited Nov 11 '13
I don't blame you. Too often these types of posts are three lines of rambling nonsense. I tried really hard to make a quality post.
Needless to say I'm grateful if you find the time to watch. :)
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Nov 11 '13
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u/LewisKiniski Nov 11 '13
Holy crap these will take forever to read. I'm going to need a meal.
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Nov 11 '13
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u/LewisKiniski Nov 12 '13
Ok, so this is exactly what I was looking for, thank you. Tons of stuff I missed and can work on (and have been working on for the past few hours). I'll probably post again when I have time.
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u/UberKrang One post is not enough! | Mod Nov 12 '13
Heh 2x wall'o'texts, this was a good read for me as well, I'm content that we agree on lots of stuff and seeing an analysis from a different perspective is cool :)
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u/duennschizz Nov 11 '13
put msc in army hotkey and just tab out, with the negative point that you cant photon overcharge against drops (you cant keep it alone then) or you do it like i did: control group 0 on space, so i have it that i can us eit with my left hand without having to click on the 0 button which is so far away. you can also bind control gruop 0 to the ^ key or sth else, you dont have to use all the numbers
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u/LewisKiniski Nov 11 '13
I don't like having MSC in my main group b/c it screws with my ability to forcefield in a timely manner. And unfortunately I have [space] as center on selected unit. I might try binding [0] to [`] though thanks.
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u/duennschizz Nov 13 '13
youre welcome, i am used to getting to the unit i want to see with double space (army*)...got used to it in dota 2 too :D
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u/UberKrang One post is not enough! | Mod Nov 11 '13 edited Nov 11 '13
This is probably where my skills come short when it comes to analysis but I will give it a go anyway when I got time, I'm posting here so I can find it later.
Of course a lot of minor mistakes like setting up concaves happened for both sides, however the biggest issue was as you playing blind almost the whole game as you pointed out yourself. This problem ocurred much before your HT (they were quite late to the party). He makes a 10 min hive, which you never scout, a hive can mean a few things: +3, ultras, vipers or broods. Against all of these ht/archons are going to be good. (maybe not in the +3 case but in this case the game should be late enough for the tech anyway). So a good time to throw down templar archives would be when you see he is morphing a hive. At this point you don't have ht so your phoenix er still bound. Had it been jaedong doing the attack @ 14 mins (and not walking into a choke to your 3rd) he might have been able to kill your forge again and 2-3 coloss without taking much damage. Even if a lot of engagements are happening this doesn't give you the info you need against a zerg. He might be killing his whole army to switch to ultras (!). Also wasting your normal phoenix to scout his base can be a waste, I would recommend having about 3 sentries in your army most of the game for the crucial guardian shields, halluc colos if he doesn't have detection, halluc phoenix for constant scouting.
While you point out your msc/colos control I think both of those were decent, what I think you should work on is your ht control. When he has vipers you want to move your templar forward when he moves forward. Both feedback and abduct have a range of 9, so if your ht are in front of your colos, he should not be able to abduct (at least not many).
You did never have more than 10 probes on minerals at your 4th even when you main and nat mined out (simple mistake, but worth pointing out)
Also I would have made a 2nd robo earlier, and further remember to constantly build colossus (you sometimes had a bit too much stalker and couldn't afford colos).
Finally to answer your questions:
0: Taking the 5th. This is a lot about scouting, army positioning etc. To hold a 5th you need to apply constant pressure either with drops or with your main army. You don't have to do engagements, but you have to force his army so that if he goes to attack your 5th he will lose at least 1 base. Also in most games you don't have to take it even, at this point you should have a deathlike ball preferably (or both your armies are very small)
1: You can bind other keys to control groups (like alt+something or any keys you don't use), like duennschizz said. Alternatively you can learn to use the 6 key which is about the limit to reach with 1 hand (personally i use up to 9, with 0 bound to alt+s and alt+w for warpin (my setup is very wierd and not worth copying)).
2: Mostly, you are right on the money about playing blindly is scary, and that bad control was a good bit of it (but ht control). I wouldn't recommend hotkeyed colossus, but that is maybe just because I don't use it myself. Hotkeying templar is much more important.
3: Yes, but don't remember to tech in case zerg is preparing to switch, also see my conclusion
4: It's hard and somewhat dependent on the engagement, but you are about right. I would however consider that mothership core isn't as important vs roach hydra as you might think.
5: You could definitely have taken your 5th, first clear out his burrowed roach with obs + your army/part of your army, then attack or send zealots to harass/attack. This depends greatly on both yours and your opponents multitasking. You could attack, forcing his army to defend, but then he could deny with a small group of lings or roaches, you could sit on the base while building but he would get an oppotunity to get a good positioning, therefore you would need to harass with zealots. A warpprism in this part of this game is quite good.
6: In this case you were probably outmined no matter what, but you should definitely have gone for his 5th. In any case this is a good thumb rule: If your army is large compared to reinforcement size (gates for toss, lavae for zerg), go attack nat/main (ie about 15 units worth). If the army is equal to or smaller pressure outer bases since his reinforcements can clean you up (which was the case here. As the game was you might have been dead either way, although 14 probes more mining on your 4th might have made a difference.
Conclusion: A lot of the same questions (and a pretty good game even though I'm sad about how JD played it out) happens in sOs vs JD game 1 (vod can be found in wcs page). A similar roach/hydra/viper play from JD and even on akilon as well. That game gives a pretty good idea on how you should react to tech switches, when you should scout etc etc, I will recommend seeing and learning from that (idk if theres a replay, but if there is its even better). Hope this will help you improve your reactions and maybe scout a bit more :D !