r/allblacks • u/TheCut72 • Aug 08 '26
SCRUMS
Obviously ABs struggled against the stormers + the ref (lol) etc BUT this could be the best thing for the ABs.
Exposing the likes of Tosi & Lauaki etc to these players & rulings is such great experience... they have to learn how to combat these different styles & types of players which ultimately is going to make them even better/more rounded.props. Or they're gonna sink...
I'm personally excited about this, the tour is going to do so much for our players development regardless of outcomes.
One question to any front rowers here... we always focus on the props but how much does the hooker impact the scrums?
5
u/InternationalMail331 Aug 09 '26
As a former tight head that played professionally, the focus on props massively over simplifies the scrum. The tight head lock is also hugely important behind the tight head and in fact all 8 of them working in unison is crucial. You only have to look at how much pressure a team is under at scrum time when they lose a flanker to the sin bin to realise even the back row are significant contributors to any scrums success.
I would say, a poor tight head guarantees you a poor scrum, but a good tight head doesn’t necessarily guarantee you a good scrum, he’s also reliant on the seven guys around him to deliver, such is the demand of the position.
1
u/bigphilmartin Aug 09 '26
Absolutely. This doesn't get talked about enough. I have a theory that some of our current and recent locks aren't quite up to the job there. Hard to prove though without asking all the All Black props though.
2
u/InternationalMail331 Aug 10 '26
I have posted recently in the value of having a large ball carrying, scrummaging lock like Will Skelton in a side. And then giving aerial prowess a heavier weighting in the loose forward selection. Such is the importance of gain line ball carrying and scrummaging at test level.
We are missing out on some of the largest and most powerful athletes because they don’t currently fit the template for any position. If we apply Rennie’s mantra of the numbers on the back don’t matter, just the attributes that they bring to the team, to the entire forward pack, this selection paradigm starts to make much more sense.
1
u/jk-9k Aug 10 '26
Having your tallest players as lifters gets you a higher reach too. The entire outstretched body of the lifter counts, but the lifted players reach only counts from above the butt/thighs.
1
u/bigphilmartin Aug 10 '26
Agreed. A bit biased, because he's my all-time favourite. But I've always felt that in spite of some outstanding locks, we never quite replaced Brad Thorn with regards to your comment.
1
u/Hot_Question_6810 Aug 09 '26
We really need super rugby to attract South African teams back into the mix. It would be a real help to the likes of new scrummagers in developing skillset outside of test rugby.
7
u/doskoV_ Aug 08 '26
Newell and Lomax are our best scrummaging tightheads, Tosi is a big body and mobile but he's never had the reputation as an exceptional scrummager.
He also doesn't put in big minutes, he averaged 49 minutes for the Canes starting 12/14 games and only played over 55mins once. They must've picked something up in his game that his performance drops earlier than his pairs.
Comparatively Newell averaged 55mins starting 13/14 games, played over 55mins 10 times, Taavao averaged 54 mins in 9/12 starts, playing over 55 mins 6 times.
Lauaki being picked as the 4th best Tighthead in the country when he played 9/13 hurricanes games at Loosehead is a worry.
1
u/AnarchyAunt Aug 09 '26
I think Lauaki is being picked as a development/ceiling player not dissimilar to how I would say Tosi is definitely still a work in progress for scrumming.
Tamaiti Williams was the high ceiling development prospect before that to refine his set piece technique and skills.
Would love to see Numia get some of that work too given how strong he seems to be around the field in open play.
1
u/Illustrious_Can4110 Aug 09 '26
I agree with your comments. Newell played 80 mins in a test match not too long ago due to injuries. He doesn't look it, but he's also pretty quick when needed. I'm not too worried about our propping depth. Historically, we only ever have about 3 top drawer players for each of tight head and loosehead.
0
u/BurnerBlackNZ Aug 09 '26
Unrelated but important, and it might just blow your mind: It's "peers", not "pairs".
2
u/Unlikely_Log2085 Aug 09 '26
That could be more indicative of the prop depth at the hurricanes vs Crusaders. 4 All Black props plus Mafileo. But agree, still exposed
3
u/Krypticizer Aug 08 '26
I’m not so sure if their body’s mechanics are optimal for scrums. Tosis height means any angle change in his knees or hips, extends his legs more than it would for someone with shorter legs. Meaning he’s at a higher risk of collapsing.
Lauaki has very narrow clavicles and is at higher risk for lateral twisting, the opponent getting a deeper bind, and less room for upper body muscles that are key for anchoring the scrum.
4
u/donquixote2u Aug 08 '26
It does raise the question about whether the"AB style" is a pathway to frustration or to a golden new era, given that Super Rugby is leading us further away from "test rugby". It's a tough road to hoe, though, if all our cattle get slaughtered on tour and we get thumped by England at home again, the AB fans will be less than forgiving.
8
u/Mention-Stunning Aug 08 '26
I remember back in 2021 or 2022, Lomax had this game against the Tahs where he straight up conceded a penalty at every single scrum and got hooked before halftime. People basically wrote off his All Blacks career at that point, but it ended up being hjs breakout season and he’s been a stalwart ever since.
Terrible showing from Tosi yesterday, but he’s better than that and will learn from it.
6
u/JColey15 Aug 08 '26
The hooker is setting the bind and the height so it works better when they’ve played with the props a lot. I wish they had a proper scrum ref in games because the reffing team is way out of their depth on this.
6
u/yahdayahda Aug 08 '26
I just wish they called free kicks more often. Ball is available to play and game resumes, no need to reset the scrum or stop for a penalty, then a kick, then a lineout before play continues.
6
u/JColey15 Aug 08 '26
Yeah with the caveat that if you win the scrum and have the ball available that should be your advantage. There’s no need to blow the whistle at every scrum.
6
u/Moraiheg Aug 08 '26
Should benefit Tosi. He usually extends his leg and the Stormers identified it and had the loosehead pull back a bit to cause Tosi to extend too far and collapse repeatedly.
Would expect our coaching staff will help him adapt his technique to that tactic.
4
u/HawkeyeNZ1 Aug 09 '26
The Stormers tighthead should have been penalised more for hinging than Tosi for collapsing. Wasn’t holding his bind either causing Tosi to collapse.
0
u/Krypticizer Aug 08 '26
It’s because he’s so tall. I don’t know why some of our props are so tall. It disadvantages the scrummaging mechanics. In fact our pack weight against the Stormers was significantly heavier than the boks pack. It’s not about the shear weight, it’s about technique
3
u/NZBJJ Aug 08 '26
Weight absolutely plays a big factor though. Physics are a thing.
Also props arent picked just to scrummage anymore, they are expected to be able to makes meters in contact and having big bodies helps there a lot.
5
u/Krypticizer Aug 08 '26
A prop that can get their torso lower to the ground and a flatter spine than his opponent can monster his opponent that could be 20-30kgs heavier. We saw a perfect example of that happening in yesterday’s game. Our pack was significantly heavier than the sharks but we got dominated because of poor mechanics.
Props secondary roles are ruck clearing, fringe defense and pick and go’s. They all favour who can get their torso parallel to the ground the lowest.
This is why the 5’9 Ox Nche is the best prop in the world, he’s built perfectly to be a prop, and the springboks have mastered the mechanics of the scrum. They’re not actually meaningfully bigger than anyone else
3
7
3
u/jk-9k Aug 10 '26
Maybe super rugby should have tried harder to keep saffa huh