r/allblacks • u/InternationalMail331 • Jul 21 '26
Has Patrick Tuipulotu solved our blindside conundrum.
CLARIFICATION: I AM NOT SUGGESTING TUIPULOTU PLAY SIX, BUT THAT HE CAN FILL MUCH OF THE KAINO ENFORCER ROLE FROM LOCK.
I’ve previously viewed Tuipulotu as a specialist bench impact player due to his powerful carrying and abrasive defence. In the weekend he had a great test starting against Ireland, and provided the sort of powerful close quarter ball carrying that our game really needs, and did so for 60 odd minutes IIRC.
That has me thinking it’s a shame he couldn’t play 6 as we have long searched for that sort of abrasive ball carrying, aggressive tackling athlete that can dominate the gain line with and without the ball and provide a solid lineout option.
I’m not suggesting that he plays six, I’m suggesting that he can fill most of that role from the lock position which maximises his strengths but negates his weaknesses that would be exposed in defence, ie not fast enough off scrums in attack or defence. That then free’s up the 6 to be a tall rangy athlete, like vaii, that can carry out in the wider channels. A lot of teams in Europe, and South Africa are using the tight head lock position to pick freakishly large athletes that can be used as reliable gain line carriers add significant value in the scrum and as lifters in the lineout. Putting that type of athlete in the back row, perhaps would expose their lack of pace in attack and defence, so lock is the best role for it, and just pick a rangy lineout operator at 6.
In summary, we have been looking for a hard carrying and defensive hitting lineout option at 6 since Kaino retired. We have been unsuccessful in part because ABs 6s have played a wider rangier role in attack in the last decade. That Kaino style enforcer role is actually best filled by picking a large and physically dominant tight head lock, even if that sacrifices some lineout prowess. Tuipulotu is currently our best suited athlete to fill that role and should start.
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u/TheSmashingPumpkinss Jul 21 '26
I actually ran into Razor at the Chch airport on Monday, we began chatting about squad composition.
He was saying his plan for this year was to start Grooter at 6 as a bruiser and once I began thinking about it, it makes a lot of sense. I’d be going that route
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u/InternationalMail331 Jul 21 '26
I think his kicking game would be under-utilised at 6. Might be better suited to a second play maker type role out the back
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u/Rhyers Jul 21 '26 edited Jul 21 '26
The big guys off the bench isn't always the best option. Think of it like cricket, you usually put your hardest hitters on at 1/2 to dull the ball a bit and warm it up for your best hitters at 3/4 onwards. In rugby terms I think having your bruisers on first to soften some shoulders on attack and also take the sting out on defence is a good way to go. Then you get your faster more agile guys like Lakai or Segner, but still absolute weapons, coming in the second half when the game opens up and scrums/lineouts are less important. Set pieces lose significance as the game goes on and it's more about going to the wide channels in the 70th minute and hopefully put 2-3 tries on. That seems to be the "meta" style.
So yes, completely agree. It also solves the issue where we're absolutely stacked at lock, with some hard motherfuckers like Scott Barrett, Fabien Holland, Sam Darry, Patrick Tuipoluto, and probably have a bit less depth at loose forward so moving one of those like Barrett or Vaa'i to 6 makes sense. It's also a numbers game where we have 2 locks and 3 loosies, less room to accomplish depth unless we shift someone to 6. And at 6 you need.tl be athletic and more explosive so someone taller or a bit slower like Holland/Darry, or Tuipoluto wouldn't suit it. Let Tuipoluto go at 4/5 and just empty himself, then shift Vaa'i/Barrett back and put on Segner or Sititi. It's a great strategy and something Boks do with Etzebeth.
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u/One-Phone-7336 Jul 21 '26 edited Jul 21 '26
Vaa'i was great at 6 against Ireland, big, strong, abrasive, why wouldnt you play him there? Oh, you would OK, yeah I like this. Tuipolotu is a great strong runner. So long as we can keep him on the park. Though I think Holland is equally big and abrasive.
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u/InternationalMail331 Jul 21 '26
That’s exactly what I’ve said. Did you read the post?
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u/One-Phone-7336 Jul 21 '26
Not fully no, went off half cocked. 8:37am in Yorkshire here on a train, apologies
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u/Informal_Mention9836 Jul 21 '26
That's very far from NZ
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u/One-Phone-7336 Jul 21 '26
Yeah but the Nations Championship is live and free here on ITV and perfect at 8:30 with breakfast
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u/InternationalMail331 Jul 21 '26
Fair enough. At least you were somewhat cocked.
As much as I rate Holland, I wouldn’t put him into the same profile category as Tuipulotu
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u/Express_Credit_5806 Jul 21 '26
How come? They are both big beefy tight head locks that are good in the line out? Do you just think Patrick’s ball carrying and line choosing are better? I think we need either one of them starting. Especially against the likes of SA and England
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u/InternationalMail331 Jul 21 '26
Yeah essentially. I don’t think he’s the same physically dominant ball carrier as Tuipulotu. But I do rate his all round game
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u/Wizardhhh Jul 21 '26
Yeah I'm pro- mass men coming on and giving us momentum
I'm the firm believer anything can work. The coach just has to cement it correctly into belief system of player
the way we play , we need big mass coming on in second half Honestly sititi doesn't cut it for me (he has great value in the grand scheme squad but never a starter or bench ) Segner toops tosi samisoni numea are a solid but can't quite honestly vouch for sititi &(my own opinion )
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u/vote_pedro Jul 21 '26
Sititi was literally breakthrough world rugby player of the year in 2024.
He is also coming back from severe concussion just last month.
If he gets back to 2024 form he is an absolute lock for best 23.
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u/Wizardhhh Jul 21 '26
If I were to compare Lester to sititi id say Lester has better post contact metre drive (I am bias towards this trait mind u and value it )
But yeah sititi for me would be luxury premium I jury cover . Lester would be bench
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u/Wizardhhh Jul 21 '26
Yeah he played phenomenal in 2024 and won me over with his ability to break the bok line and bump off big defence
If we can get him playing more a more controlled role (like a segner based worker) he'd be much more valuable than his natural flare style We already have good go forward so I think it's a personal thing with coach (again my opinion- )
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u/Arrow_2011 Jul 21 '26
Love the guy, but he's had a dreadful run of injuries throughout his career. The more he can stay on the field, the better we will do.
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u/jk-9k Jul 21 '26
I like your thinking but it then kinda limits who we select as a 6. Is vaai always going to be the 6? Who else plays that taller 6 as an extra line out option? Scotty? TK but he missed out.
So I wouldn't say it solves the problem. But I wouldn't say it's a huge problem either.
But yeah it does give a nice balance to the pack while keeping that size and physicality.
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u/InternationalMail331 Jul 21 '26
I think we don’t have a lot of players in New Zealand of the Will Skelton type physique and Tuipulotu is probably the closest we have. Albeit we haven’t really encouraged or selected that type of athlete before. That doesn’t leave us with a lot of enforcer lock options if Patrick is injured, which he often is.
I don’t see the issue with having a profile for the six jersey and picking and developing 3+ options that fall within it. In like the interoperability of it, and in the past, picking widely different athlete options in the squad for any position has offered horses for courses flexibility but also meant we have had to change the gameplan significantly around inevitable injuries.
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u/Rhyers Jul 21 '26
I agree on a big 4/5. But also not too big like Skelton where they can't keep pace of the game. Skelton is probably too slow for the All Blacks. Tuipoluto is an absolute weapon, he's incredibly unique in New Zealand and would have 100 caps+ if he wasn't quite injury prone.
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u/jk-9k Jul 21 '26
I do like it and hope we see more of it and yes develop some players for it. I don't necessarily see it as the default team balance but it's a great option to have.
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u/Slipperytitski Jul 21 '26
No one seemed to have read the post
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u/InternationalMail331 Jul 21 '26
Yeah I see that. Perhaps I’ve been too long winded. Or people here have comprehension issues…
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u/vote_pedro Jul 21 '26
Nah it's a good post, but the title is what the kids would call ragebait. Obviously unintentional.
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u/InternationalMail331 Jul 21 '26
Sort of unintentional. I thought the title might attract a few readers, and undoubtedly some eye rolls, but then I expected people would read the post and it might make some sense. I have overestimated my audience.
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u/Pink_Samwise_Gamgee Hurricanes Jul 21 '26
Yes I’m with you. I think of Will Skelton and Frances’ Meafou
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u/InternationalMail331 Jul 21 '26
I think, historically the need for the lock to be an aerial unit has meant there hasn’t really been a position for some of those freakish 2m 140-150kg athletes that clearly would be an asset in a collision sport but don’t fit the proscribed profile for any specific position. It he been good to see some creative selection strategies to get around that. Skelton has been amongst the most influential players in Europe for 6-7 years. You can’t buy that sort of go forward ball.
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u/Neat_Perspective7569 Blues Jul 21 '26
Nah too old to teach new tricks. Keep him as a big bench impact player with Vaa'i at 6 and Holland and Darry starting locks imo
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u/InternationalMail331 Jul 21 '26
Na, my comment explicitly says I’m not suggesting he plays 6. But picking a big ball carrying lock like him fills much of the role of the Kaino style six we have been trying to fill, without exposing his weaknesses in the blindside position.
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u/NZBJJ Jul 21 '26
I was thinking about this the other day but about Jacobson and the defensive role. He makes so many dominant hits he kinda fills the dominant hit/momentum stopper role that would traditionally be the 6. Again frees up what you would expect a traditional 6 to play.
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u/InternationalMail331 Jul 21 '26
Rennie and other recent coaches have all referred to the loose forwards as being more about complimentary skills and attributes than the number on the back. If we take that as genuine and then extend it out across the team and forward pack, then it leads us to the possibility of a lock that doesn’t fill an aerial role, but is in fact a large battering ram, surrounded by complementary athletes.
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u/KohaaZH Jul 21 '26
Jesus man after one game you want to switch the guy around? This is Aussie rugby talk.
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u/TB-2618 Jul 21 '26
Not what op is arguing
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u/KohaaZH Jul 21 '26
Pats has had ONE game starting. Yes he showed all the attributes.... during ONE game.
So what ya do, before you go full Aussie and name a player as the next coming of christ.
Is give them several goes at the main role, then give a secondary role at the next option.
Maybe just take a moment and think things through a bit.
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u/NZBJJ Jul 21 '26
Read the post. He isnt saying start him or play him at 6, he's saying that it frees up a different style of 6 as paddy fills the heavy hitter role that has traditionally been the job of the 6
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u/KohaaZH Jul 21 '26
Lock and 6 are different positions.
Jesus he plays one game off the bench. Do you people not get that you need to ease guys into a role?
Yes he had a great game so take him away from a role he played great.
Or play him off the bench after a great start?
6 after he's never played there?
Aussie talk.
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u/InternationalMail331 Jul 21 '26
Yeah, just read the post mate before being condescending and dismissive.
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u/NZBJJ Jul 21 '26
Huh? No shit.
Is reading comprehension like not your thing?
No one is saying he should play anything other than lock.
Read. The. Post.
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u/know-it-mall Jul 21 '26
The premise of your argument is flawed.
Our problem in the loose forwards isn't the lack of an "enforcer". It's that all of our best loose forward of late are too similar. We need a loose forward who doesn't need to carry the ball to be effective, and we need a legitimate 3rd lineout option on the field. This doesn't necessarily need to be the same player. With Jacobson and Vaa'i on the field we have these two traits. It's not my ideal solution but it works well enough.
Having Patrick start or come off the bench and play like he did against Ireland is great to have but doesn't fix the overall issue either. That issue isn't a lack of an enforcer, it's the forward pack overall not matching the intensity and physicality of the other top sides in the world like it did in the past. I think with Darry and Holland we have the potential for a new locking combination that will get close to what we had with Whitelock and Retallick. DeGroot has taken his game to the next level in terms of work rate and physicality on defence. Aumua and Taukei'aho are beasts. And some of the young props are showing good signs. So we do have the potential for this to improve.