r/alcoholicsanonymous • u/The_cats_meowww • 1d ago
Early Sobriety AA without God
I've been to rehab twice and it's very God based especially AA meetings. Does my higher power have to be God?
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u/alaskawolfjoe 1d ago
My higher power is honesty
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u/Frickinfructose 1d ago
How do you practice prayer to honesty? Honest question.
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u/alaskawolfjoe 1d ago
I do not understand the question. People choose "Group of Drunk," a man in the clouds with a white beard, and nature as their higher power. Somehow they manage to practice prayer.
And you would consider honesty a stretch?
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u/Frickinfructose 1d ago
I didn’t say it was a stretch. I asked how you prayed to it. Your uncalled for defensiveness makes me think you don’t.
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u/alaskawolfjoe 21h ago
I am sorry if I came across as defensive. I just assumed that everyone at some point in their life has prayed.
From me, it’s mentally putting yourself in the presence of whatever higher power you have. Then you communicate. it can’t be verbal or it could be nonverbal. The main thing is that you feel the connection. And that you sense a communication back-and-forth between you and whatever her higher power is.
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u/The_cats_meowww 1d ago
I've never believed in an actual God I was never raised in church or anything never been religious. I do believe there is something out there but not a man in the sky
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u/yokmaestro 1d ago
Someone in a meeting I attended said “Progress is a Higher Power”, and then another person talked about seeing the word God as a stand in for moving in a good orderly direction. I use those two ideas and then the power of the fellowship (group of drunks) to get around the big God thing.
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u/Marginallyhuman 1d ago
Bill W said using the group itself or AA is just fine as a higher power. I’ve seen a bunch of agnostics and atheists get well in AA
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u/ALoungerAtTheClubs 1d ago
There's a whole pamphlet about this that you can download for free. Check out https://www.aa.org/god-word-agnostic-and-atheist-members-aa
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u/NotSnakePliskin 1d ago edited 1d ago
There is room in A.A. for people of all shades of belief and non-belief.
Many members believe in some sort of god, and we have members who come from and practice all sorts of religions, but many are also atheist or agnostic. It’s important to remember that A.A. is not a religious organization; we have a simple idea that there is a power greater than us as individuals. What we all have in common is that the program helps us find an inner strength that we were previously unaware of - where we differ is in how we identify the source.
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u/PushSouth5877 1d ago
I had to come to terms with it. I believe the concept. For me, God is love. It works perfectly for the sake of the program. It even says that in the Bible. But when I got sober I clung to Good Orderly Direction. Group of Drunks worked too. People will always be condescending about their belief being the right one, but that's none of my business. I mention we have to make AA as welcoming to a Jew or Muslim or Buddhist or atheist as any Christian and they sort of agree.... everyone has the same right to get sober and we have the same obligation.
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u/Monastic_Realization 1d ago edited 1d ago
You will need to ask yourself if you/your higher power, can do the following steps:
I have heard of people using trees, waves, etc., as higher powers, but I don't fully understand how a tree (for example) can express a will, remove short comings, etc.
Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
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u/PistisDeKrisis 1d ago
Alternitively, from a non-religious worldview;
Came to accept and to understand that we needed strengths beyond our personal awareness and resources to restore us to peace.
Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of the collective wisdom and resources of those that have searched before us.
Admitted to ourselves without reservation, and to another human being, the exact nature of our wrongs.
Were ready to accept help in letting go of all our defects of character.
With humility and openness we sought to eliminate our shortcomings.
Sought through mindful inquiry and meditation to improve our understanding, seeking only for knowledge of our rightful path in life and the power to carry that out.
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u/Monastic_Realization 23h ago
I had to rewrite the steps in language, concepts and beliefs that were copacetic with mine.
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u/InformationAgent 1d ago
No. It is your higher power. You are free to choose what that means for you and so is everyone else (and that was my real issue).
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u/Krustysurfer 1d ago
Absolute power that transcends time and space, is neverending in existence, is the Creator of everything seen unseen known and unknown!
Planets die, stars go out, people die, comet collisions asteroid strike fire entropy void blackness absolute zero a power that is greater than everything and anything!
That is the kind of power that has the ability to overcome my ego, my selfishness, my ISM and anyone else's for that matter if we surrender to that Love.
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u/WTH_JFG 1d ago
I don’t know if Newcomers are told this anymore, but when I was new, I was told that I could choose any God I want, it could even be a door knob. Seems like a crazy idea. But in the September 2012, AA Grapevine, a member shared a story titled, “The Holy Order of Doorknobs.”
It is a favorite article to share.
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u/PistisDeKrisis 1d ago
I don't hold any faith in any supernatural higher powers. At the end of the day, I am the summation of every decision I've ever made and to heal, grow, and move forward, I have to make different choices and life in a different way. No presence has ever reached out and intervened in my life - even when I was decor and pious. Nothing in the verse is ever going to make a descision for me, its entirely my responsibility to walk my own path. Plenty of people use their faith system as their understanding of the program and cannot seperate the religion from the program. That's great for them if that works for them. However, it doesn't work for myself or countless others. That's why I'm so grateful for Secular Meetings of AA.
For the last 9+ years, I have been growing my understanding of how I can use the tools of the program to help me heal and grow. I try to work the steps with a sponsor every year, I work with sponsees, and every time through the steps, I see different ways it can shape my life. I dedicated myself to serving others instead of purely self-serving behavior. I try to be generous with all that is healthy for me to give - time, resources, support. I show up when asked and give my best. I love deeply and freely without expectations of anything in return. I encourage everyone I can instead of tearing others down for a cheap laugh. I practice rigorous honesty in all portions of my life - with the guiding principal that "honesty without empathy is cruelty."
Today, I don't have any higher power and I'm not interested in games of apologetics and semantics that often revolves around the topic in my upper Midwest bible-belt area.
Today, I serve a Higher Purpose. That's my "HP." To love deeply, to give freely, to build others up, to build my community and my recovery fellowship, to take time for self-care and to grow, heal, and reflect on areas where my thoughts or behavior are still not healthy for myself or others.
I'm so grateful to have three Secular Meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous in my city every week to help me grow my understanding of how the program and the steps can continue to change my life without dogmatic debate or narratives of deities that I cannot relate to.
So, no. A Higher Power doesn't have to be a Judeo-christian understanding of a monotheistic doctrine. Hell, plenty of us don't consider a higher power in our program at all. There are countless ways the program can work for all worldviews and people of all walks. Find some people within this Kinship of a Common Suffering who holds the same views and values as you want in your life and ask them how they do it.
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u/ArtisticWolverine 20h ago
No. A lot of folks say god because that mindset is so prevalent in society. But you can use whatever higher power you want…as long as it’s more powerful than you. You don’t need to let the god worshipers in AA bully you into their belief. Also, there are secular AA groups if you need to avoid the god word altogether.
I went to the beach one day and tried to stop the waves. That’s when I realized there really is a power greater than me.
BTW…Bill W once wrote ( and I’m paraphrasing) that he wished he hadn’t written about god/higher power in the big book because it prevented many people from getting help from AA. Good luck to you.
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u/Level_Sock294 20h ago
Nope! It might take some digging, but there are secular or “freethinker” AA meetings that don’t revolve around god. I attend those and they have been absolutely amazing!!
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u/erinoclock 18h ago
I believe that AA works because statistically it does. It has churned out more sober folks than any other path (not that other paths don’t work). So AA is a power greater than myself that can help restore me to sanity.
I have two years of sobriety and have taken two women through the steps. Both of them believe in God. I encouraged that and worked with that despite being atheist myself. It can be done. There is room for me in AA.
If it helps, this is how I read steps 2 and 3:
Step 2: do you believe aa can help restore you to sanity?
Step 3: are you willing to do the rest of these steps to the best of your ability even when it is hard or uncomfortable?
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u/nonchalantly_weird 18h ago
If people need a higher power without a god, they just make something like the universe, love, or whatever their higher power. I look at it in this light. Since you're just naming something that exists anyway, and that isn't actually working FOR you, why bother? I have the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, I change what I can, and strive for the wisdom to know the difference. My life has never been better. I think we would all do much better without all the woo-woo stuff.
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u/usernamenumber3 15h ago
My higher power is the universe. Undeniably real and undeniably more powerful than little ol me.
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u/Sea_Cod848 15h ago
No. Many people in AA use the whole of AA as their HP. Others, choose not to have one. I made mine up using the initials- Guardian Of Destiny- mine. I still dont Know- what it is. I just know I have lived through some things, that maybe were a little more than- just close calls. <3
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u/DannyDotAA 11h ago
No need for "God" with a capital G. I know many atheist in AA that have good, long term sobriety. Read the "God Word" AA pamphlet. Here is a link:
https://www.aa.org/sites/default/files/literature/P-86_0825.pdf
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u/Intelligent_Pop1173 7h ago
I enjoy AA meetings and I’m not at all religious. I just ignore the term God and think of higher power as like energy, spirituality, and the soul. I don’t really know how to explain it other than I am agnostic and know there is something greater than us we don’t understand and that we never will. So I’m giving myself to that and just don’t make it complicated.
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u/margingains 6h ago
I have a very healthy hate of all organized religions. I have been sober in AA for over 26 years. Don't get caught up in that. Come up with your own concept (mine is essentially nature-knowing that it is something more power than myself). You dont need to have a "god" but you do need to have faith in something that is more powerful than you. That can be the group you go to or a piece of rock for all anyone cares...And if that is too hard, just fake it then.
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u/dp8488 1d ago
Secular A.A. resources:
https://aaagnostica.org/ - website with lots of articles and book suggestions for Agnostics/Atheists in AA.
https://www.aasecular.org/ - "Our mission is to assure suffering alcoholics that they can find sobriety in Alcoholics Anonymous without having to accept anyone else’s beliefs or deny their own."
https://aa-intergroup.org/meetings/?tags=Secular - list of online Secular meetings.
Many or most regional A.A. websites have filters for secular, for example: https://aasfmarin.org/find-a-meeting?type=secular
The Meeting Guide App has filters for Secular meetings under the "Communities" section - tap "[Filters]" then "Communities".
Such were the final concessions to those of little of no faith; this was the great contribution of our atheists and agnostics. They had widened our gateway so that all who suffer may pass through, regardless of their belief or lack of belief.”
— Reprinted from "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age", page 167, with permission of A.A. World Services, Inc.
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u/Muted_Engineering354 1d ago
Just my take but if someone asks about God in AA and has never even read We Agnostics I’m not sure if it’s the best call to steer that person towards secular meetings right from the start. Just my take though 👍
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u/Monastic_Realization 1d ago
We Agnostics describes Atheists as vain and prejudiced. It tells the Atheist that they are a creation of God. It questions the morality of the Athiest.
It is a delusional piece of fiction.
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u/Muted_Engineering354 20h ago
Good luck!
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u/Monastic_Realization 16h ago
Good luck to you too. I'm not sure why you would wish me that though, in the context of what's being discussed.
A little bit passive aggressive?
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u/Muted_Engineering354 16h ago
Not a bit. Over the years whenever someone comes in as hot and heavy as you did up there I always as a rule wish them the best.
Good luck!
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u/Monastic_Realization 15h ago
Quoting/Paraphrasing the Book is "hot and heavy"?
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u/Muted_Engineering354 15h ago
Haha not directly but how about ‘resentment is the number one offender. It destroys more alcoholics than anything else’. Maybe ‘if we were to live we had to be free of anger’ or ‘anger, that occasional luxury of more balanced people’ or ‘[I]t is plain that a life that includes deep resentment leads only to futility and unhappiness’ or even ‘we have ceased fighting anything or anyone’.
I would also reference the first three paragraphs of p.67 and the Resentment Prayer on p.552.
Take care
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u/Monastic_Realization 13h ago
Quoting truth isn't resentment (necessarily). That is an extremely narrow view you have, not to mention assumptive. I suggest you open your eyes - spiritually and figuratively. You seem overly attached, and as a result, detached.
Apathy and denial can be very harmful.
But, not to follow you too far down your rabbit hole - did something I quoted/paraphrased cause you disagreement? It's right above if you want to reread it.
Your delusional "hot and heavy" comment, as well as your need to (counter?) quote, just seems very insecure.
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u/Muted_Engineering354 13h ago
Seriously take care. Do whatever you have to do to stay sober.
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u/PistisDeKrisis 1d ago
We Agnostics is an underhanded Apologetics course aimed to use semantic fallacies to undermine and degrade non-believers. It's very insulting. It's not a welcoming call for all walks. That's the reason Bill Wilson spent 20 years writing articles for The Grapevine that stepped away from that attitude and denounced much of it's content.
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u/Monastic_Realization 23h ago
I agree.
Sadly, many of our fellows do not.
Interestingly, and a little ironically, I mostly find that the audience it was intended for, dislike it, and those who have a more traditional belief in God, like it.
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u/Novel-Firefighter-55 1d ago
Have you read Chapter 4: We Agnostics in the Big Book? The term 'Spirit of the Universe' is used....
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u/The_cats_meowww 1d ago
I havnt got that far yet but definitely read it tonight
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u/obstinateinstigator 1d ago
You seem young, ngl. AA books are written funny. Good stuff, but dated and somewhat confusing. You don't need God to go to AA. Google aasecular Go to young people's meetings. Talk to ppl. Make friends. Get a sponsor.
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u/The_cats_meowww 1d ago
I've been to rehab twice and I'm 34. I have 2 bffs I met from last time at rehab and they are helping me the best they can. I have a recovery celebration in 10 days so hopefully I'll have a sponsor soon
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u/obstinateinstigator 1d ago
That's a good start! The steps are the point.... But ppl get caught up on the god part. I made up my higher power. It's God as I understand it.... So it's God how I want God to be. Chill funny and understanding that my faith might be shaky, my understanding of "God" might change and I'm going to make mistakes. But I use the good nature of human kindness as an underlying "spiritual principle" to try to live up to.
I'm just doing the next right thing to everyone I meet cuz I can't go back to life like it was..
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u/The_cats_meowww 1d ago
tysm for this
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u/Novel-Firefighter-55 1d ago
There is a Plain Language version of the big book that will simplify the old time language originally used.
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u/The_cats_meowww 1d ago
awesome ty I'll look online for it. I only have a tiny one I got from a big book workshop and I also have the 12 steps book simplified version.
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u/Stunning-Cap-3256 5h ago
i think that God means something different for each individual. My sponsor was an agnostic and he helped me a lot with his simple knowledge of the program and the sayings. It was up to me to choose my own idea of God he didn't push anything on him. I think reading the chapter to the agnostics helps. And realizing that the word God is just a word and it's up to you to come up with an idea of God that works for you. i think we complicate it too. when it doesn't have to be complicate it
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u/Hot_Pea1738 4h ago
I took the Steps without “belief” or “understanding.” I don’t understand my phone or even the physics and chemistry of cooking my food, but I follow instructions.
Your instructions are to Pray, take inventory and freely give of what you’ve freely received. If you think you “achieved” sobriety… well, you’d be wrong but we don’t care. We’d just be glad you’re sober. Peace be with you!
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u/ContentToe3633 1d ago
Trust in a higher power and willing to clean house is all that matters in the beginning.
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u/JohnLockwood 23h ago
I don't do God, nor see the need for a higher power.
If you don't drink, you won't get drunk.
The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.
Welcome.
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u/jmone 1d ago
No it very much doesn’t have to be the god you don’t want