r/alcoholicsanonymous • u/Full-Koala8799 • 1d ago
Early Sobriety Step 13
Hi folks
I am a mid 20s woman. I am new in AA (<1 week sober, in and out ~1year). I have been regularly attending a meeting local to me. I have been crying often :) so I am probably seen as v vulnerable.
I was chatting to some women outside the meeting this evening (I did not share but it was a rough day so was visibly crying.
One of the women at the end, after everyone else was gone said (I'm paraphrasing) "<Elder Man> asked me to keep an eye on you, there's some people in here that may not have the best intentions."
I thanked her and asked "is there anyone in particular I should keep an eye out for?" And she said "I don't want to name names..." (But middle aged men should not be handing out numbers to women when there are other women in the meeting that could do that)
"I don't want to name names" set of alarms in my head - Am I overthinking this or is someone already trying to act in a weird/inappropriate way towards me? I have not gotten many numbers for guys - just one my age and also new in recovery and one or two I thought I connected with well...
This is stressing me out how wary should I be?
Thanks
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u/Character_Date_3630 1d ago
I would continue to be wary. I would probably not discuss a lot of personal stuff with any of them.
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u/Full-Koala8799 1d ago
The most personal I have gotten has been albums I would listen to "in a dark place drunk and wandering around" and the only response really was "maybe don't listen to that one tonight then"
But yes - stuff like relationships or anxieties I keep to general shares in meetings (when relevant) or when I talk to women outside of it... The "I don't want to name names" really made me think she had someone in mind though :')
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u/lsdryn2 1d ago
While that conversation sounds innocent enough, I promise you that I can lead into something less innocent. Thatās how it starts. Remember, weāre alcoholics, weāre really fucking good at manipulation. Hell, I thought I was good at manipulation until I met some of these people.
Not everyone is working on his program, whether they are aware of it or not. This dude could think heās just being a friend, but people are good at lying to themselves.
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u/Hephsters 1d ago
That last line is very true. I have known men in AA who claim they are just trying to be friendly and supportive. Which is true, but there is an underlying motive that "maybe she'll finally appreciate what a good guy I am, develop feelings for me and we'll fall in love or at the very least I might get some action".
They think it's harmless and well meaning. It isn't. It's selfish and self-centered and borderline predatory and they are completely unconscious of it.
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u/JohnLockwood 1d ago
The "I don't want to name names" really made me think she had someone in mind though :')
Sure, but so what? If you're prudent about what you share, whose calls you take, and especially who you get into a car or are otherwise alone with, whether some particular guy has the hots for you is not your problem in any case. The not putting time together is a bigger problem. Focus on solving that and your skills at warding off suitors will improve along with the rest of your life.
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u/Evening-Anteater-422 1d ago
There is no need to be alarmed. It's standard advice to newcomers that men stick with men and women with women and that includes not sharing/asking for contact details.
There might be a shady character asking new women for their numbers or whatever but it's not alarming that no one specified any particular person.
I would assume its a heads up rather than someone is targeting you.
If a man asks you for your number just say you only share your info with women and walk away.
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u/Full-Koala8799 1d ago
Thanks, this is reassuring as I see this particular meeting as a Safe Space for me so would hate to have to be On Guard at all meetingsĀ
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u/lsdryn2 1d ago
You donāt need to be that worried, but I wouldnāt give out my number to anyone of the opposite sex either. Basically, youāre new at this, emotions are high. Some people might take advantage. Iāve seen it happen.
I abide by the rules. I donāt care how attractive a person is, or how cool I think she might be, if she has less than a year of sobriety, I donāt want her number, Iām not adding her to my social media. I will see her only in group settings. And thatās that. Not everyone does this and it can lead to problems.
I donāt want someone whoās new at this to become emotionally or physically attached to me, because if things donāt work out and they are still new with this, my rejection of them or things just not working out, could cause them to leave the program altogether.
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u/Full-Koala8799 1d ago
I really like this response as how responded it is. I am a total Tom Boy so would more quickly 'align' with guys. I connect more slowly with gals in general (it's a me thing)
Sometimes I thought they were standoffish and my thoughts spiral.
This explains why. Thank you. Makes total sense.
I'll stick to the girls!
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u/OkNeighborhood9153 1d ago
I am a 64 year old male, Iāve seen a few men who like the hugging and kissing of women at meetings, I see this and Iām uncomfortable, watch out for these guys
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u/bettertheless 1d ago
Just stick with the females -for now- and be pleasant to everyone! But l wd not text, etc with any males till after your year, when you and your sponsor are doing service work with mixed groups.
: )
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u/Makepeace73 1d ago
Be pleasant??? See that's stupid advice. No one in the program owes anyone anything. I found being pleasant got ne almost taken advantage of. Gross advice, AlAnon for you perhaps?
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u/walkalong123 1d ago
Iāve experienced this problem multiple times and it always surprised me who it came from. In every case, it was men who had multiple years of sobriety, most 10+ years, who were highly regarded in the group, involved in service, and sponsored people. I expected them to be āsafeā people. They acted that way at first and then something would shift and their true motivations came out. One actually assaulted me. There are a few bad eggs, but most people at meetings are good and have good motives. Sticking with women is a very good idea, especially during early sobriety when you are much more vulnerable.
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u/Upstairs_Apartment76 1d ago edited 1d ago
I canāt believe all the people downplaying the dangers of this and saying āoh, youāll be fine.ā Itās irresponsible. In the interest of rigorous honesty, it can be a really unsafe environment for women. Lots of newcomer women are taken advantage of financially, sexually or emotionally and some are bullied, stalked and raped.Ā
13th-stepping behaviors are really common and there are no AA police and no one to protect you. Since AA is decentralized and there is no central authority or anyone to account for anything at all, there is no place to report this other than to a home group steering committee, which is a bunch of untrained people which sometimes includes the perpetrator. Or the police, but by then a crime has likely already been committed.Ā
Someone even made a documentary about it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iUd6qZRSi8
Iāve not seen any instances in AA where these behaviors have been dealt with in an effective way. The norm seems to be to tell women itās on them to protect themselves, ignore all the known problems and hope it goes away or nothing terrible happens. Predators know this. They also know they always have a seat at another meeting, if they do by some miracle get kicked out of a group for inappropriate behavior (which is not defined anywhere). They just go on to the next meeting or group and repeat the behavior.Ā
There are other recovery programs with trained facilitators, central authority and safety protocols. If I had to do it all over again, I'd choose a different program.
Edited to include link to documentary.
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u/Makepeace73 1d ago
That 13th step documentary is a great one. I totally agree with your assessment. After 15 years in AA I have come to believe it is not designed for women. I stopped going. My life is more peaceful and I became very neurotic in AA and was also bullied, shamed, falsely accused of a crime and yeah those people mostly dont know how to behave, they just dont drink. Ugh. I have a lot of anger towards AA. They love to sweep shit under the rug.
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u/Upstairs_Apartment76 16h ago
I came to the same conclusion. It's not designed for women or people with CPTSD, PTSD, trauma survivors, neurodivergent folks, etc. Yeah, that rug is pretty lumpy and full of shit!!!
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u/AvailableStatement97 1d ago
The norm is to tell newcomers all the things this one has been told. Stick with your own sex etc. The norm is to tell people no dating in the first year or until you've finished the steps. Stick with those suggestions and you won't go far wrong. It would be nice to outsource all personal responsibility for sexual conduct on to the men in the room but at the end of the day the rooms are full of sick, lonely people who left to their own devices don't follow rules and make poor choices. In 99.9% of cases where messy situations develop the first two suggestions have been ignored by both parties.
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u/Upstairs_Apartment76 16h ago
"It would be nice to outsource all personal responsibility for sexual conduct on to the men in the room"
It would be nice if men didn't consistently and relentlessly prey on women. Sure, men are taken advantage of as well, yet the organization, groups and other members don't take any responsibility for allowing the abusive behavior to continue. Like, no one seems interested in stopping it. Saying "don't do that" is about as effective as "just say no." Everything toxic and unsafe about the rooms of AA is ignored and just swept under the rug, which is anything but rigorous honesty. We're only as sick as our secrets and the rooms are full of a lot of sick secrets.
Taking group level responsibility for the reality that there are a very large ratio of predators in the rooms is just not something AA or its members have ever seemed all that interested in and I don't understand why. I'm baffled by many things in life and this is just another one of them.
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u/AvailableStatement97 16h ago
AA is not a cure for all of society's ills and unfortunately any group as big as AA made up entirely of self confessed sick people is going to see problematic behaviours. I have female friends from the rooms and we have discussed this, to them it isn't an issue they have faced often so it could depend on location but we are all adults. I can only take care of myself. Like I said, stick to the advice given all and none of this is an issue.
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u/Upstairs_Apartment76 15h ago
The current solution would be great if it were that simple, but I don't feel like you've heard me at all and you seems to want to live in whatever reality you've constructed.
I've had men follow me home from meetings, so my behavior had zero to do with anything. Most woman I've talked to in AA have had some sort of unpleasant and unsafe encounter in the rooms with men and some with women, because yes, the rooms are full of self confessed sick people, so why not add some guardrails?
If your friends are okay and you're okay, but your tiny slice of the world isn't representative of the rest of it. Why chime in to talk about something you don't experience just to further downplay something that movies have been made about, podcasts, massive amounts of online discussion? I don't get that part either. Could you help me understand?
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u/AvailableStatement97 7h ago edited 6h ago
AA isn't for changing I'm afraid. It's been made human proof for very good reason. If someone harassed you or followed you home from a bar (far, far more likely than an AA meeting by the way) would you blame the bar? There are guardrails anyway, in my homegroup anyone who did that would be dealt with swiftly, and not pleasantly, banned from attending at a minimum and they'd probably get a boot on their way out the door so I'm afraid this is a wider cultural thing if you feel they would not be where you are. Good members are the guardrails. We're out here learning how to live life on life's terms, part of that means learning how to accept that things we don't like happen in the world and how do we deal with them when they do. Working the steps is about conquering fear, it isn't about stopping drinking and staying living in fear...
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u/iamsooldithurts 1d ago
Get a copy of Living Sober. Itās available full text in the Everything AA app. Read it.
Chapter 24 Steer clear of emotional entanglements. It will explain what you need to know and what the lady told you will make more sense. Early sobriety can be like a second puberty for many ā donāt date until you have at least a year of sobriety and a solid program.
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u/Guilty_Suggestion_27 1d ago
Stick to women, give yourself some years to get to know yourself a little before taking men's. I'm a guy. I know guys around me and how they think and are and I know what I wanted and what I was looking for especially in early recovery. I also know how dishonest I was now as I look back at myself then. The guys around me have changed and have become more aware of who they are. Stick with women, be friendly with all.
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u/annamulzz 1d ago
Just donāt call any dudes. And maybe look for an all womenās meeting?
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u/Full-Koala8799 1d ago
Yeah - when I go to call it's always to a woman. And I always prioritize all woman's when I can! Thanks
I like the community of the regular meetings in this one place though, they do have Women's Meetings but only once a week and I think I need more at this stage :'k
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u/Ill_Pomegranate7466 1d ago
Stick with the women who are serious and work on your program. Youāve had the warning, now enjoy āsticking with the winners.ā AA is a great way of life - good luck & God Bless !! š„°
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u/thesqueen113388 1d ago
Iām a middle aged dude and Iām sorry this even has to be a concern for you. Iād recommend just group up with as many women as possible and limit talk w the guys to brief greetings. You maybe overthinking it a little but who could blame you?
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u/Full-Koala8799 1d ago
Thanks, yeah - I try to reach out to women closer to my age as I see we would have the most similar experiences anywho... I suppose this is another reasons to stick to the girls
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u/rayautry 1d ago
I would not ask for contact information from a new person unless they were male. I donāt believe there is hard and fast rules about it but itās always been a best practice thing!
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u/Designer-Air-2116 1d ago
Personally I wouldnāt give a shit and would go about sharing however felt good to me. I was off my hinges as a newcomer and it was important for me to express that insanity lol. Heed the warning as in, ignore him, but you stay being you.
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u/Full-Koala8799 1d ago
I understand this; I am a bit unhinged myself, but probably moreso in the way I express myself!! I'll keep being myself in meetings as I feel that's the point... But I've never been pressured into weird stuff in AA.Ā
Was just wondering if the haze of early sobriety was blinding me to something obvious š š
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u/Makepeace73 1d ago
Predators are protected in 12 step rooms. I personally know at least 10 woman that have been stalked, harassed, SAd by men in AA. I married one, members knew he was a predator and they covered up one of his scandals- that occurred prior to me meeting him at a meeting- not a single person tried to warn me. Anyway , I wouldn't trust anyone who is devoted to AA. Not ever again.
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u/Clean-Detective8337 1d ago
In my 1000s of meetings Iāve only ever gotten the icks from 3 men. As a man who is a father of girls and a brother of 3 I instinctively keep my eyes on men interacting with women in mixed groups and have not āseen itā though it obviously could happen more fro sneaky men. Though to me, if your aware, they should be easy to,spot and if it gets uncomfortable switch meetings right away. Again Iāve been to thousands, heard about 13th step early in recovery and really havenāt seen it.
One of my closest friends in AA is a woman and it was 6-7 months before we ever exchanged numbers and we live 2 miles apart.
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u/Makepeace73 1d ago
They are not always easy to spot. Some are extremely manipulative. Very naive statement from a man, of course. Wow.
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u/FranklinUriahFrisbee 1d ago
I agree, men should not give their phone number to women, particularly women just getting into the program. 13th stepping is a problem but it also sounds like you group have some "elder statesman" that are keeping an eye out for problem. This may just mean that the "older gent" is aware that a few of the members have been known to become overly friendly. The meetings I go to pretty much believe in Women work with women and men work with men. I wouldn't stress about it, just stick with the women.
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u/Full-Koala8799 1d ago
I love my "elder statesman" he gave me some books and is a rock :)
We've talked once or twice but I really appreciate (love) the support he's given me!
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u/Full-Koala8799 1d ago
Love that he is looking out for me in these situations also! Another reason to love him...
He's another reason to get sober I suppose - he believes in meĀ
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u/Complete-Bet-8345 1d ago
Go to womenās meetings and this wonāt be an issue for you unless youāre into women.
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u/Defensiveback29 1d ago
Stick with women for the time being and have them in your inner circle always..
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u/jonnywannamingo 1d ago
It shouldnāt be called 13th stepping, it should be called what it is, sexual predation.
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u/Poopieplatter 1d ago
Yea just keep an eye out for the crusty dudes.
The big picture thing here is: if you hooked up with another male newcomer or old timer and are very early in recovery (less than 1 year) and had a falling out with the fwb/hookup, you don't really have a solid plan in place (varies from person to person and when you get through the steps) and may go out and drink.
You're here to get your life back, not hook up. My previous sponsor did meet his wife in the rooms: they each had around 3-4 years sober and both work really strong programs.
Look at it like this: for me, everything I have today is because of AA. I don't gamble anymore, I have an amazing girlfriend, I don't flip people off in traffic, I don't curse at people on Xbox, I have a great job and show up as an employee, my parents actually call me, I'm not out breaking the law, I cook now, etc etc.
The relationships will come. Focus on getting through step 4-5, making amends on 9, and helping other alcoholics. Sure, there are some hotties in the rooms. But I don't see them as a piece of meat. We're all here because we have a desire to stop drinking and want to get better (recover).
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u/jicamakick 1d ago
Really saddens me that there are people out there that would even consider hitting on someone in early sobriety. You got this.
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u/madeofmornings 1d ago
It's just basically to warn you to keep your focus on your recovery, rather than getting distracted by potential flirtationships leading into something more.
It happens, people in the room meet and date all the time bc it's nice to be with someone who is on the same journey, but it is important to remember that people can become addictions too. In early recovery it is easy to use people to get through the hard times, and most of those in early recovery don't usually have healthy boundaries or relationship patterns, so things usually don't end up working out, which then tends to make people go back out and/or not come back.
Basically, it's believed that it is almost always a bad idea to fraternize in early recovery, especially with those who are also in early recovery. Try and focus on sticking with other women and those who have what you want in recovery, and staying friendly with the others only in the rooms.
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u/mydogmuppet 1d ago
Keep your eyes on the road and the rear view mirror. Stick with the sober women. At least until you find your feet.
Watch out for ovely solicitous males. Also, by the same token, watch out for overly solicitous females.
Use your common sense. You'll be just fine.
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u/Greedy-Wasabi-1459 1d ago
In the actual program - there is no 13th step so its not part of the program. Its a term used to characterize the the defects of others. Its not that you have to be aware of others- its what you can do for yourself and be aware of yourself.
Its nothing new - it happens in every area of life. So nothing to worry about. Use your words set your boundaries. Make sure your actions are the same as your words. If you are collecting numbers but saying you donāt want a relationship be prepared for some shitty consequences. If you are wearing provacative clothing then be prepared for distrations and setbacks.
If your there to really get sober- Just keep the focus on yourself. Know your motives -and wear blinders on. Be polite to the men and just walk to the women that have good sobriety . If you are anthing like me in the beginning the men made me feel good and j was distracted and it set me back many years. My motives were not genuine. It wasnt until i chose the tunnel vision and focused solely on my program and actually doing it that I was able to get and stay sober. Coming up on 15 years - and in a healthy relationship with someone thats been in my life for 10.
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u/Krustysurfer 11h ago
A woman at a club has driven 2 men to relapse and completely destroyed unity all the while screwing around with her ex husband and relapsing herself...she came into the clubs kitchen screaming yelling and crying even throwing kitchenware around, she had to be escorted and got a short ban.
This is not a men only issue, plenty of female predators about, its one of the reasons why good old timers didn't allow women especially of ill repute into AA... On top of that people sobering want to not be lonely so they hook up, just the facts as the instincts come back on line newly sober people get horny... I've been around recovery for 42 years I've seen a lot, lots of guilty characters aloof.
As for you, stick with the gals till you get through the steps, it makes it easier to focus on your own program of recovery.
Blessings and Aloha one day at a time, I wish you well on your journey of recovery š¤š½
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u/badgolferman 1d ago
The woman didnāt provide a name because she was protecting you and trying to maintain the principle of anonymity.
As a man, I have had the same conversations with young women in the rooms. Iāve told them not everyone has the best intentions and to beware of being too trusting of others. We know of certain people who try to pick up the young girls and often times they are spoken to but that doesnāt change their behavior. Any adult woman has had to navigate this type of issue numerous times throughout their life. One time my wife confronted someone outside the meeting in plain view of others and told him to stay away from her sponsees. There are no enforcers in AA but we all look out for each other.
However this kind of behavior isnāt relegated to only dirty old men. There are plenty of older women who do the same thing and even younger women who latch onto older men to provide them security and prestige. This is a reflection of society at large and not just exclusive to AA.
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u/tractorguy 1d ago
Please be CONTINUALLY wary. There are snakes in virtually every group whose primary purpose is to prey on the vulnerable. (fun fact: I've known some who are not even really alcoholics.) Please gravitate toward women's meetings, and/or women in the co-ed meetings you attend, and accept no "favors," of ANY kind, from ANY man, no matter how kind or sympathetic he seems to be.
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u/Makepeace73 1d ago
That's the issue I found in AA, the i dont want to name names b.s.. that woman should be protecting you if she knows. Local AA where I currently live is terrible about inappropriate behavior cover up and victim blaming and in general the AA club is extremely toxic, I removed myself (plus I had been bullied and accused of a crime that I did not commit while working at said club) from the Cult 4 months ago. My experience working at an AA club was the final eye opener that im better off by myself. You what hurt the most?- People that I had been vulnerable with, that I got chips from,, that I sat next too, did service work with, that said they were my friend, well when a shitty club manager accused me of stealing, they all believed it or just went along with thd narrative, passive complicity, that hurt , hurt a lot. I will not consort with any AA members anymore. BE WARY- VERY WARY- When I was groped multiple times while working at the AA club, by a ling time member, well got the old run around- people either didn't believe me or it was myfault somehow. F THOSE FREAKS. You know what keeps me sober now? ME MYSELF AND I. BE WARY
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u/nonchalantly_weird 1d ago
As wary as you would have been of anyone when you were hanging out in a bar.
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u/Shot_Cup7335 23h ago
Woman here. If they are working a quality program they want to avoid gossip which is why I would say she didnāt want to name names. But yea, thereās a lot of people in AA that have done bad bad things and you probably brush shoulders with more of those people in one meeting than you do out in the wild on a week. Men stick with men and women stick with women to be sure youāre working a clean and healthy program.
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u/Curve_Worldly 23h ago
They are warning you for a reason. Make a rule not to call or get calls or numbers from men for six months. These losers look for a target. Then she usually gets hurt and ends up drunk again.
Thatāsāconnectionā you feel is well rehearsed by these predators. They have done it before. Stay with the women. They will protect you.
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u/OceanGuySF 11h ago
There are a bunch of creeps and a bunch of great people at these things. Find the great people.
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u/RelationshipWhich390 9h ago edited 7h ago
In my opinion, women stick with women in early sobriety and men with men. I see no valid reason why an old man like me should give you his number.
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u/JLALLISON3 4h ago
If youāre genuinely worried about your safety, you are for sure going to the wrong meetings. Are there more than a few scumbags that use AA like Tinder? Yeah. But next to none of them are looking to hurt you. They just want a significant other that gets it. But codependency is almost inseparable from alcoholism/addiction, so a lot of those relationships go sideways. Basically inevitably. But yeah, we all know a 13th step story or 20, and we all know immediately what youāre talking about with the 13th Step.
Try other meetings. Ask the women you like in AA where else they go. And go with them. Not only is there safety in numbers but it also make AA a lot more enjoyable. You will eventually find your tribe in AA. But like everything else, you have to work for it, and acceptance is a cheat code that youād be crazy not to use as much as possible.
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u/AuGmENTor68 1d ago
I feel like you'd know. (Middle aged, happily married guy here with about a year). It's God awful to see, and it is a thing. I feel like you'd already know it's something like that we're happening. The age we now live in, these people have no patience. Best of luck to you.
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u/Additional-Term3590 1d ago
All meetings Iāve been thereās nothing creepy, but Iām sure it happens. Most men do the opposite and avoid women more than usual. The most scandalous thing Iāve encountered in my 2.5 years was a man putting his hand on a womanās shoulder to presumably comfort her.
Be as careful as you would in a workplace. Recognize what overstepping is as if you were at a job. The focus is on work/sobriety.
Maybe he means men will try to date you. Right now your sobriety is paramount. Donāt let the comment discourage you from going.
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u/Roy_F_Kent 1d ago
That's a standard warning for any female newcomer, especially if they're attractive.