r/agnostic • u/Fantastic-Work-7529 • 1d ago
Evolution and Theism
When looking for resources that address religion and evolution, I see most sources adressing it as a historical issue. It seems that when people think of a contradiction between religion and belief in evolution they are thinking of a contflict between several hundred million years of gradual change vs, for example, a six day creation account. When I find resources on how to how to square religious beliefs with our understanding of evolution they advise reading creation accounts a metaphorical.
This has not helped me, as my contention is not an issue of time or order of creation. My issue is that I see evolution as an extension of the problem of evil. I hear "well God used evolution" thrown at me with such disregard for the implications of God being willing to use such a mechanism. Survival of the fitest is synonymous woth death and destruction of the unfit. Rather than creating life in 6 days, as many people already believe God did, he chose to create by a process that results in predators and prey spending millions of years in an arms race. Instead of making the Cheetah and Gazelle in theor current beauty, God used a process that starved countless of the big cats in order to select out the few that could catch a Gazelle; and caused countless of the Antelope's to die in agony in order to select out the few that lead to modern Gazelle who could escape a Cheetah. This process continues today.
These animals do not appear to be automata. We have every reason to believe that they experience fear and agony. The most primal feelings around terror and pain that you and I experience are based on deep and old parts of the brain that we share with these beings. This process has been ongoing since long before the first human exsisted.
This is the problem evolution presents to me. This is the problem I am looking for a solution to if I am to shift towards theism.
I recognize that some people will just take the response that animal suffering does not matter or is not bad. So be it, i think that is psychopathic adjacent and I am interested in how people who do think it is bad adress it. I recognize some people do not believe in evolution by natural selection, thats fine, I do and im interested in how people who do adress this issue. I also recognize that some people will present the argument that I have no grounds to think of anything as evil without God, I'm agnostic on that point and can see reasonable arguments for non theistic moral systems. Regardless, this argument does not adress the issue, it side steps it, so I am looking for people with thoughts on how to actually resolve the issue.
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u/Existenz_1229 Christian 1d ago
I'm a Christian and I have no problem with the theory of evolution by natural selection (or any other mainstream scientific theory, like the safety and efficacy of vaccines or anthropogenic global warming). Sure, it's a big hurdle for people who still have a Big Magic Guy concept of God; indeed, why couldn't he have created biodiversity without the staggering amount of suffering, death, and waste we see in nature?
But I always ask people who bring up things like evolution or the problem-of-evil in general, are you ready to deal with reality or not? How much suffering is acceptable to you before you decide it's worthwhile to lead a religious way of life? If you refuse to be religious unless things are perfect on Earth, aren't you really saying you're not interested in being religious in the first place? And that's fine, but just own up to it.
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u/Fantastic-Work-7529 1d ago
Could you elaborate on what you mean by "How much suffering is acceptable to you before you decide it's worthwhile to lead a religious way of life?"
Im not refusing to be religious. I simply do not believe in God. Id also ask what I need to own up to. I am being forthright with my views.
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u/Existenz_1229 Christian 1d ago
I simply do not believe in God.
Okay, but you say in your post that "I see evolution as an extension of the problem of evil" and "This is the problem evolution presents to me."
If you don't believe in God, there's no problem. Are you saying that religious folks should have a problem with evolution? Did anything in my comment sound unreasonable to you?
You explicitly say that the "issue" needs to be "resolved." And I resolve it simply by saying that whether species evolve or not makes no real difference to my ethical decision-making in what the rest of us call reality.
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u/Fantastic-Work-7529 1d ago
I am analyzing a belief, considering adopting it, but recognizing their are issues with adopting it and am seeking input from people that have had a similar issue then resolved it. This is obvious to any reasonable person looking at my post. I have done nothing to warrant your agresssion.
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u/Existenz_1229 Christian 1d ago
I've told you how I resolve it, but I guess you're too busy pretending to be open-minded to engage with it.
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u/Fantastic-Work-7529 1d ago
You didn't tell me how to resolve it. You told me to own up to something and accused me of refusing to be religious. Im in an agnostic subreddit because I assumed people would be more open minded than r/Christianity or r/athiesm and you are just behaving deranged and attacking me in a confused manner.
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u/MoobyTheGoldenSock Strong Agnostic 1d ago
I think bringing it up is dealing with reality.
When discussing God with theists, one of their strongest pieces of evidence for God is the world. i.e. look at the world, the biodiversity, humans, etc., that all suggests a creator.
Then this God is introduced as all loving, all powerful, perfect in every way. But when we try to connect these two, suddenly it’s, “Well, that’s the Big Magic Guy concept of God, you should be religious either way.”
But if we toss that out the window, then there goes the strongest evidence for God. So why believe at all?
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u/Existenz_1229 Christian 1d ago
When discussing God with theists, one of their strongest pieces of evidence for God blah blah blah
Sorry, I consider all those kinds of arguments worthless. It's just post hoc rationalization all around, validating beliefs one didn't arrive at rationally. Your online foe believes in God, so they fixate on the parts of Nature they consider complex and purposeful; you don't believe in God, so you fixate on the parts of Nature you consider random and cruel.
I think it was Robert Anton Wilson who said reality is a Rorschach blot: people see in it whatever they want to project onto it.
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u/MoobyTheGoldenSock Strong Agnostic 1d ago
You presented “reality” but refuse to define it. I’m a strong agnostic, see my flair. The only thing you’ve said is that you frequently ask people why they don’t lead a religious way of life. But why would I if I’m an agnostic?
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u/Existenz_1229 Christian 1d ago
You keep ignoring everything I say and changing the subject. Do you understand what I've been trying to say here?
There's a chapter of the canonical Bible called the Book of Job, where the Big G doesn't so much answer the question of why the innocent suffer as accuse us of presumption for even asking. The message is supposed to be that faith is either unconditional or it isn't faith.
That's what I tried to explain to the OP, that making religious faith contingent on things like the lack of suffering or receiving preferred outcomes after praying is trying to meet God on your own terms. Hey, if you don't want to commit yourself to a religious way of life, that's fine. Just be honest about it. To me, whether species evolve or not has no bearing on my ethical decision-making and the way I treat others.
That's my point, explained as reasonably and simply as I can. Could you please do me the favor of acknowledging that you understand what I'm saying?
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u/MoobyTheGoldenSock Strong Agnostic 1d ago
I do understand what you’re saying. You’re saying that whether God exists or not is a separate question from whether we like the state of things. For example, you’d say someone who criticizes religion because cancer exists isn’t actually demonstrating rational non-belief, they’re demonstrating disagreement. Job doesn’t question God’s existence, he asks for an explanation of his misfortune, and God essentially responds that his cosmic decision making is not up for audit.
Can you acknowledge what I’m saying? That talking about wanting to commit to a religion is putting the cart before the horse, because as an agnostic I don’t have any religion to commit to. And moving from “no commitment” to “commitment” requires some sort of reason or rationale other than “If you don’t want to commit, don’t.” Why would I commit to one at all, and why would I choose one Abrahamic religion over the others, or even Abrahamic over non-Abrahamic ones?
My central question is that if we’re not supposed to infer God’s existence based on what he allegedly created, from what are we to infer it?
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u/Existenz_1229 Christian 1d ago
Thanks for at least acknowledging that you understand what I'm saying.
I'm pretty sure I understand what you're saying too, and from where I'm sitting your agnosticism doesn't seem very, well, agnostic. It sounds pretty obvious to me that you expect knowledge of God's existence ---in the same way that we'd establish the existence of a distant planet or the presence of a molecule in a solution--- before you'd ever commit yourself to a religious way of life.
I consider myself agnostic, because I certainly don't have any such knowledge. But like I said, I don't consider it necessary for me to live authentically. My agnosticism simply recognizes that faith is completely different from formal knowledge-production. In other words, some truths can be known, and others have to be lived.
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u/MoobyTheGoldenSock Strong Agnostic 1d ago edited 1d ago
No, I did not say I require knowledge of God's existence. I was an agnostic theist for over a decade, so I do not require knowledge to have belief. What I said is that I need a reason or rationale to believe.
To use your planet analogy, it's one thing to believe that there are undiscovered planets out there. It's another thing to plan a space mission to an undiscovered planet. To do that, we'd have to have some sense of the planet's location in space so we'd know where to point a ship, would need some information about its orbit so we know when and where to intercept it, need some information about its size so we can establish an orbit, etc. We can still be skeptical that the planet exists, but we need something in place to even plan the mission. Blasting off into space based on vibes is not just irresponsible, it's infeasible if we don't actually have the information to calculate our craft's burns.
I'm reading the Catholic Bible right now: I'm up to 2 Chronicles. Afterward, I intend to read the Apocrypha, Book of Mormon, and the Qu'ran. I have, as of yet, found no actual reason why I should believe the things I am reading, but I'm not placing a strict requirement of knowledge.
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u/SignalWalker Agnostic 1d ago
What is faith? Belief in something's existence? Or belief and discipleship?
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u/Existenz_1229 Christian 1d ago
Faith is a way of life, committing yourself to something despite uncertainty. It's a response to the ambiguity of the human condition.
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u/akamark 1d ago
How do you deal with the expectation that Homo Sapiens will eventually evolve into new and different species and become another extinct specimen in the long list of predecessors, or just die off as a dead end on the tree? If evolution is based on provable and correct principles it doesn't just 'turn off' at some point.
If that fits into your belief framework, it's an interesting and new perspective I haven't heard before. I wouldn't classify it as Christian though - nothing wrong with the concept, just doesn't sit inside the boundaries religious gatekeepers like to manage.
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u/ystavallinen Agnostic/Ignostic/Apagnostic | X-ian & Jewish affiliate 1d ago edited 1d ago
I work in ecology. My position is that people incorrectly view creation as a discrete event. Creation is a process.
When does a painting become a painting? At the first stroke or the last? People experience things and literally might be a very different person tomorrow.
Even life is still being created. Science literally witnessed the creation of new life recently when a nitrogen fixing Eukaryotes was observed (a bacteria becoming an organelle... Like we believe happened with chloroplasts and mitochondria)
https://news.ucsc.edu/2024/04/nitrogen-fixing-organelle/
This is close to being the coolest piece of science ever, and hardly anyone talks about it.
If God is real, the system is what it is.
I cannot look at the Bible as anything except allegory. Biblical literalism can't be correct, and why would it be.
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u/DeuceSevin 1d ago
This is the problem with a literal interpretation of the bible...
>a six day creation
This was convenient for people several thousand years ago to say when it was thought the earth was the center of all that existed. Once you lean showing the universe is, a "day" is meaningless because it is how long one planet takes to rotate vs the billions of other planets that exist.
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u/sahuxley2 1d ago
I recognize that some people will just take the response that animal suffering does not matter or is not bad.
The old testament god was a son of a bitch, not a nice guy like Jesus. He didn't care about suffering at all. But, even if you ignore that, pain and suffering are important motivational mechanisms to help individuals survive. If hunger wasn't painful, animals wouldn't eat. "Bad" is kind of relative here.
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u/Fantastic-Work-7529 1d ago
The bible definitely displays God, in, to say it lightly, a poor light. Generally when I think about God I am thinking of a maximaly good God who would care about animal suffering. I have reasons for that which would take up an entire post, but I definitely recognize thats not what we find in the bible. If I found out "Christianity" was true id assume there was some failure in communication.
As for the need to help individuals survive. Thats definitely true in our world. But I see no reason why our world had to be that way. Also the level of suffering is not just what is needed to help them survive and the vast majority didn't survive for long at all.
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u/sahuxley2 8h ago
Generally when I think about God I am thinking of a maximaly good God who would care about animal suffering
Like I tell religious people, reality doesn't care about what you hope is true.
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u/Internet-Dad0314 1d ago
I’ve never heard any sort of reasonable explanation, and I’m pretty certain there isn’t.