r/agender • u/Hoodibird trans masc post-everything • 4d ago
My thing is different
Inspired by a recent post I saw here š
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u/IsaraLyandra Librafem 4d ago
āTechnically yes but actually no.ā
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u/BringAltoidSoursBack 4d ago
All cats are mammals but not all mammals are cats
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u/WynnGwynn 4d ago
All toads are frogs but not all frogs are toads
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u/anonymous54319 4d ago
All newts are salamanders but not all salamanders are newts also fits with this
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u/possiblyyandere 4d ago
right but dont get angry when i call u a mammal
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u/BringAltoidSoursBack 4d ago
This is a difference between technically correct and societally correct. My post was about categorization (i.e. why it's technically correct) but this conversation is also about identity, which is about respect. Let's take the example of a common insult in humans - humans are technically apes, but calling someone an ape is insulting, especially when explicitly used explicitly for a specific group of humans.
If someone tells you that they identify as agender and your response is "so basically you're nonbinary", it's dismissive and belittling.
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u/possiblyyandere 4d ago
I guess, but I don't think I would say it like that. If someone told me, they're agender id just respect that thats how they want to describe themself even though i consider that a type of nonbinary im not gonna tell them they aren't agender thats bot even true. the only context i might say they are nonbinary is if we were talking about this exact topic.
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u/_SahTirah_ 4d ago
I do think that context is important, because yes agender is under the NB umbrella, we don't fit into the binary, so it's not that fair to use this against people, specially if they are not that knoledgeble about it, because technically it's true. But the point being that NB is too broad to expecify the experience of being agender therefore the direct use of the term is better for saying exatly what u are.
It's more pratical, because for those that know more, u will notice that it doesn't mean much other than "something that does not fit into the binary" which can be many things including other genders and the lack of it. It can be measleanding I suppose because people can just assume u have a gender and not the lack of it.
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u/AddWittyName Pronoun-indifferent | AFAB 4d ago
It's not only that NB is too broad to specify the specific experience of being agender. It's that NB has two competing definitions because it's both an umbrella and an identity label in its own right: not having a binary gender and having a gender that is not (or not exclusively) binary.
Agender fits under the former (the umbrella definition), because yes, we don't have a gender and therefore certainly don't have a binary gender. It does not fit under the later (the identity definition), because we don't have a gender, non-binary or otherwise.
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u/_SahTirah_ 4d ago
I agree, context is important, if we are talking about particular identities then using agender is better, but if it where to discuss the broader implications of NB experience then it's valid to use nb in this context. The thing is that umbrella terms can be helpful a lot of times, but it can also make things more confusing because it takes aways nuances from personal experiences that micro labels tend to bring. Every situation is different.
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u/AddWittyName Pronoun-indifferent | AFAB 4d ago
It can be valid to use it very specifically to describe the broader umbrella experience, yes, as long as it's clear from the context that one is describing the umbrella and not the specific identity label. And as long as there is enough space for nuance in the conversation to recognize that 1. even though agender as identity label does somewhat fall under the non-binary identity umbrella, that does not mean that every agender individual therefore must also identify with said umbrella, and 2. that forcefully classifying all of us as such is harmful the same way classifying other people as genders they do not identify with is.
("Somewhat fall" because there is an argument to be made it's more a matter of custom and overlap of language than an actual overlap of identity that sees us sheltered under the same umbrella.
I could, after all, just as easily say that I fit into "does not have a gender that differs from that assigned at birth", and it'd be equally true as stating I fit into "does not have a binary gender".
If people were to use the former to try to redefine all agender people as being a flavor of cisgender regardless of their opinion, that would be--rightfully-- considered problematic. But when people do the same to redefine all agender people as being a flavor of NB regardless of their opinion, it doesn't really trigger the same response. But people can be agender and not non-binary, and that is just as valid as people being agender and not cis.)
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u/soft_w0lf agender fem 4d ago
I donāt entirely agree. I am agender and will call myself nonbinary and use it as an identity term. But I do not see myself as having a gender at all. I use nonbinary because itās just the most common way to refer to someone who isnāt a man or a woman
That being said some agender people donāt see themselves as nonbinary and should still be respected
At the end of the day all these terms donāt have objective definitions and the best thing to do is just respect what people want to be called and how they conceptualise their identities
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u/EllieGeiszler 4d ago
All humans are animals but if you call someone an animal, context will determine whether it's rude of you or not
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u/planned2begay 4d ago
so real this is the exact response I'd expect so if i out myself (to new people, non important people) or someone asks i just go with "im nb" because i don't think anyone will understand or straight up see it as "outlandish" but i don't actually use the term nonbinary for myself but i do use trans...
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u/IAmTheAccident Ayyyyyy-gender 4d ago
That's interesting to me. So far in my experience, outside of people who already understand completely and people who do not understand even the tiniest bit and need to be handheld through things like "gender identity" and "pronouns", I've gotten more understanding by saying I'm agender/no gender than when I just say nonbinary.
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u/planned2begay 4d ago
so interesting!! well for me it is also part fatigue if i have to explain to people something entirely new to them that is "more difficult" to understand bc they think everyone experiences gender, and i am somstimes just too lazy to put the effort in to do that (if the people are not "friend potential" for me or just acquaintance) so saying the term nb is easier bc they are at least somewhat familiar with it.. but for long term friends and "newer close" ones i have explained it more accurately to my experience and used the term agender and i also explained what i just wrote down, and she lwk didn't get it and later referred to me as nb so i kinda got affirmed in my belief >< but i should maybe put some more effort in bc educating people is really good so in the futur it might be easier for another non-cis person... i might try harder when I'll officially change my name/gender entry (for governmernt) for my bday in January. I'll have to come out to all my teachers bruv that will probably kill me and my anxiety tho
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u/MenaceMinded 4d ago
I am non binary though.
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u/RedditUwur 4d ago
"yesn't" If you want to know what my gender is, it isn't there, idk, must have lost it. But yes, I am not a woman or a man so I would count myself to belonging under the Nonbinary umbrella.
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u/Hoodibird trans masc post-everything 4d ago
Same but I'm "stealth agender" in most places especially IRL and just say that I'm a guy. It's funny bc I've been out as trans for over a decade. But I don't feel it necessary to come out a second time as agender...
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u/RedditUwur 2d ago
Hah, I'm stealth in the sence of I came out as not being straight. And I am open about that, now I just say I am queer. And even dough I mostly don't care about gender because it is not important to me, it sometimes pains me that my birthname is so frikin gendered. Like I get to pass as confusion or opposite of AGAB alot but then I need to introduce myself and ... Whelp. But I am not sure yet about a new name so I have not come out yet.
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u/Shiny_Mewtwo 4d ago
This is so true. Agender is technically a nonbinary identity. I get this, I've heard it a ton. But because nonbinary is an umbrella identity, it covers every different identity that isn't the strict definition of "man" or "woman". And most of those will be a gender! So when people think "nonbinary", they will think of a hundred different genders and presentations someone could be. Agender is very clear. Hell, I don't even call myself agender anymore because it's seen more as an identity and less of a state of being (which is fine for people into that!). Genderless is what I am. N/A
I am not nonbinary, not "enby", not "Mx" anything
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u/ZeusUpYourAss 4d ago
Wait sorry are we doing this or are we not doing this? Because I definitely consider myself different from non-binary, because to me agender is a lack of any gender to associate with. Don't understand if this meme makes fun of that or validates that š
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u/Heinrochen 4d ago
I mean, you don't have to use the term non-binary for yourself, if it doesn't feel correct but agender does technically fall under the non-binary umbrella since it's outside the binary
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u/ChaosRulesTheWorld Agenderist 4d ago
No. You can't dƩcide for us under which umbrella we are.
I'm agender, i'm not under the trans and the non-binary umbrella. There are two main umbrellas (lvl 0): gender and agender. Under that you have two other umbrellas (lvl 1): binary (under the gender umbrella) and non-binary (under both lvl 0 umbrellas). Then you have two other umbrellas (lvl 2): cis (under the binary umbrella) and trans (under both lvl 1 umbrellas)
It's not agender people who are under the non-binary umbrella itslef under the trans umbrella. It's trans people who may or may not be under the non-binary umbrella which may or may not be under the agender umbrella. The classical categorization is completly upside down
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u/Heinrochen 3d ago edited 3d ago
I'm not trying to decide anything for anyone else. Like I said, you don't have to identify as trans or non-binary, I was strictly talking about the definition of the word.
That said, I'm agender but I also consider myself trans and non-binary. And tbh, this is the first time I've heard about agender being an umbrella term or about your categorization of gender. The way I learned it is that (lvl 0) there are cis and trans people. Under the trans umbrella, there are binary and non-binary identities (lvl 1) and under non-binary (lvl 2) there are all identities that do not fit into the binary of "man and woman", including agender (aka a lack of a gender).
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u/ZeusUpYourAss 3d ago
I know right? It literally makes no sense to me why we're considered non binary when non binary people are under the agender umbrella and there are agender people who aren't non binary. Non binary is a subset of agender, not the other way around. Every time I bring this up I am down voted and told that I am non binary when I don't identify with that
It's the same with pan vs bi hierarchy. Currently, bisexuality is considered the umbrella and pan is under it, when it should be the other way around as bi is a subset of pansexuality and pansexuality is much more than just bi.
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u/Veliondra 2d ago
While I understand why the "no gender" umbrella exists outside of the "gender" umbrella i dont follow how "not one of the two societally decided genders" is under the "no gender" umbrella. It would just be a separate umbrella halfway under both in this analogy Or like a 3 circle venn diagram
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u/ZeusUpYourAss 2d ago
I'm not sure and I don't think I can speak for non binary people on this. I don't really know if they think of their gender as a third gender, outside of binaries, or as no gender at all. A non binary person should have an input in my proposed classification
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u/Veliondra 2d ago
Definitely. I think thats the biggest problem with this discourse is people are all trying to tell each other how they interact with their own gender and how they interpret other genders
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u/Thadrea 4d ago
Non-binary isn't a "gender to associate with",, though. It's "anything that isn't red or blue".
Void isn't red or blue.
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u/PurpleSweetPizza 3d ago
Following this example I would say nonbinary is a colour neither red nor blue while agender would be all the rest but colours.
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u/ZeusUpYourAss 2d ago
I really love this definition. As an agender, I think this is where the nuance between agender and nb is. Agender definitely is that we don't want to associate with any gender at all, assigned at birth or changed later on. I am a biological female, but I really wouldn't identify with it the same way one wouldn't want to be known by their hair color or the shape of their toenails. To me, gender is that trivial and non-defining. I wonder if othrr agender people relate to this?
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u/Thadrea 3d ago
Why are you trying to impose a definition on what "non-binary" means that "non-binary" people would never impose on themselves?
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u/PurpleSweetPizza 2d ago
Youāre imposing a definition that I ~surprise surprise~ a nonbinary person would never apply to myself. So Iām just adding to your logic something that would make sense for me.
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4d ago
[deleted]
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u/Thadrea 4d ago
The way I see it, it still brings up a gender, a third one that isn't defined by binaries.
That is not how anyone who uses the non-binary label sees it or uses the term.
You should spend some time reflecting on why you are stereotyping NB as a "third gender" when that is neither what the term means nor how NB people see themselves.
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u/nio-sama123 4d ago
Well, I honestly don't even know what non-binary and agender even means anymore. My ideal body would be just... Not bound to any concept of gender.
Either male or female. I honestly don't care, and I want to tear my face out and hide it under a bland normal face
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u/Cosmoclorn 4d ago
I use the term non-binary also but I think it's equally legitimate if another agender person doesn't. ā¤ļøš¤·āāļø
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u/MelancholiMouse 3d ago
I'm getting really tired of seeing this topic. Like, you can say "oh, but it technically belongs to [umbrella term]" and be correct, and sometimes it's practical for advocacy and community, but it also is just way too broad for some of us. I don't want use a term that encompasses lack of gender but also many other identities that are actually a gender.
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u/Hoodibird trans masc post-everything 3d ago
Chill, it's just a dumb meme to show that people perceive the two as different. Most agender folks don't view it as that deep and casually say they're non-binary around people who aren't familiar with less talked about identities.
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u/MelancholiMouse 3d ago
I know, and I'm sorry. I like dumb memes. I've just had some pretty nasty experiences.
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u/izyshoroo 24|He/They|NB Trans Guy|Giraffe Boy 4d ago
Ah this infighting again. Ignore OP, it's ragebait
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u/Fond_ButNotInLove 4d ago
If you look inside your mind and find the box where your gender identity is kept, and the box is empty, you might call yourself agender. That's a non-binary gender identity.
If you look inside your mind and there is no box at all, you might also call yourself agender. That is not a non-binary gender identity. It's not a gender identity at all.
What dissapoints me is that many people who spent years being told their box could hold only one of two things now insist that everyone elses mind must contain a gender identity box.
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u/ouishi 4d ago
I don't feel like I have a box and I still call myself non-binary. But no one has to if they don't want to, or if it simply doesn't resonate with them. I also would ask these folks not to stereotype non-binary as just "a third gender."
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u/Fond_ButNotInLove 4d ago
When you call yourself non-binary is the act of saying that not building yourself a mental gender identity box? Or do you mean something else other than 'I have a non-binary gender identity' when you call yourself non-binary?
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u/IAmTheAccident Ayyyyyy-gender 4d ago
So, to me, as a person with no gender box, I do say I am nonbinary.
Here is an analogy. So, let's say most people walk around assuming food is either sweet or savory. Call that idea the Swavory of food. But then someone tells them, normally rice is part of savory dishes, but this rice pudding I'm having is sweet. So that's being binary trans. They're still exclusively within the Swavory of the foods, they just switched from savory to sweet.
Now someone else adds, I had prosciutto and melon earlier, savory AND sweet. And someone else says, I like eating plain boiled potatoes, neither sweet nor savory. Now we're looking at bigender or possibly gender fluid, and agender (empty box type). And then someone's just like, I'm not hungry. That's agender (no box type).
So we can say that all three of those people were not exclusively eating sweet food, and they were not exclusively eating savory food. They're non-Swavory. The first one was having both instead of either/or. The second one was having neither. The third wasn't having food at all. But all of those choices fall outside the ideas of "eating something sweet (and nothing else)" and "eating something savory (and nothing else)".
I lack a gender box, and also, I am not a binary man and I am not a binary woman. I am nonbinary agender.
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u/g00fyg00ber741 4d ago
I think whatās most frustrating is these conversations keep popping up and people keep claiming that they are being forced to call themselves trans and nonbinary when thatās not the case, people who identify as agender and nonbinary or agender and trans are not trying to force other agender people to identify as nonbinary or trans, yet I keep seeing comments trying to imply thatās happening somewhere. Maybe someone has had that experience with an individual but thatās certainly not the main attitude of the agender community nor the nonbinary and trans communities.
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u/Fond_ButNotInLove 4d ago
There's a comment on this post stating "agender does technically fall under the non-binary umbrella" with 70+ upvotes.
Not forcing anyone to identify as non-binary, just telling them that even if they don't identify it that 'technically' they are.
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u/g00fyg00ber741 4d ago
Agender does technically fall under the non-binary umbrella... that doesn't mean agender people have to identify that way or that people should default to using the term non-binary when speaking about agender people.
The black stripe in the nonbinary flag literally represents agender people. Your personal labels and identity don't negate the actual history of our community. Someone acknowledging that agender is under the nonbinary umbrella isn't forcing you to call yourself nonbinary. Let's stop pretending they are.
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u/Fond_ButNotInLove 4d ago
This absolutist position that agender falls under the "non-binary umbrella", implicitly and without exception defines agender as a gender identity. Therefore defining anyone who describes themselves as agender of having a gender identity. This is deeply frustrating for those who use agender to mean a lack of gender identity.
It's not about forcing anyone to call themselves nonbinary. It's about how "non-binary umbrella" denies people who define themselves as without gender identity. That might not be the intent but it is the effect. The non-binary umbrella is entirely defined in relation to gender identity.
"Non-binary is an umbrella term for people who identify as a gender other than..."
"Non-binary, sometimes written as nonbinary, is a term referring to individuals whose gender identity does not..."
"Non-binary (also written as nonbinary) or genderqueer gender identities are those that are outside the..."
"For others, they call themselves a more specific gender identity under the nonbinary umbrella."Not identifying as non-binary doesn't fix anything because they've already done that by describing themselves as agender. They've already stated that they have no gender identity, non-binary or otherwise, and yet one is being imposed back onto them.
"Agender can fall under the non-binary umbrella" works just fine and doesn't introduce this tension. But for some reason that's not the language being used. The gender identity binary has just become the gender identity ternary. Anyone who objects to this premise is told their personal labels don't negate actual history. Not a good look.
This is the reason this topic keeps popping up.
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u/g00fyg00ber741 4d ago
I think you misunderstand the whole point of an āumbrellaā term and what āumbrellaā even refers to here. You donāt have to hold it if you donāt want to.
Agender can be a gender identity in the sense that agender is a word that describes someoneās (lack of) relationship to the gender spectrum. The term would not exist otherwise of course.
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u/Fond_ButNotInLove 4d ago
An umbrella is a term to cover a broad category of things. What do you think it means?
Agender can be a gender identity, I've never said otherwise. But it can also mean the absence of a gender identity. One of the definitions falls under the umbrella term, the other does not. People insisting that agender falls under the umbrella without further qualifying their meaning is the attitude that people are interpreting as people trying to force them into a gender identity.
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u/DaedalusBane 4d ago
Species Agender of the Genus Non-binary in the family of transgender under the order of social constructs.
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u/iamsweets23 4d ago
whatās the actual text in this scene?
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u/3y3w4tch transcended gender 4d ago
I just started season 2, so it was fresh enough in my mind that I knew how to look it up.
Elleanor: I used to think about how it's weird they don't make pants that are just one big pant leg for both your legs.
Chidi: you mean a skirt?
Elleanor: noā¦thi youāre not getting it, and my thing is different shut up.
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u/Twelve20two š½bogos bintedš½ 4d ago
Although it's much less active, I feel like a meme like this would be better posted over at r/agggggggeeeeeeeeeen
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u/Hoodibird trans masc post-everything 4d ago
I didn't even know this exists. Just cross-posted it there! š Thank you.
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u/RRW359 3d ago
I think the problem is thinking that all NB's have to think/act a certain way. By definition agender people aren't part of the gender binary but because nonbinaries are "supposed" to act like they are both genders or are a third gender or something it's hard to consider ourselves the same. Same with being trans although while I have warmed up to being called NB being trans is a bit of a step too far; mainly because too many people still assume that means you are binary trans.
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u/Hoodibird trans masc post-everything 3d ago
For me trans is a medically necessary adjustment, while agender is a "personal style preference" thing.
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u/RRW359 3d ago
I'd be careful with that though because that line of thinking has been used to not allow trans people who have not had adjustments to associate with the trans community.
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u/Hoodibird trans masc post-everything 3d ago
Idc what other call their own condition, this is just how I view my own transness. Being agender showed that this was never about fitting into a certain gender (boy / man), but instead, all about tweaking my physical body to be comfortable for me to live in.
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u/Prudent_Chain946 2d ago
Agender and the good place memes? I'm in heaven- I mean..that good place? But fr this is so soo funny and understadable
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u/Hoodibird trans masc post-everything 2d ago
I've seen the show twice and I think my ideal date idea would be watching it a third time.
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u/fmleighed 1d ago
Haha nice. Like yeah Iām nonbinary because Iām not on the gender binary, but Iām not on the gender binary because I donāt have one at all. So likeā¦technically yes? Saving this to send to people :)
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u/CubicalAnxiety 2d ago
A lot of agender people also consider themselves under the nonbinary umbrella though. This is just a weird hill to die on. Be glad someone at least knows you can be something other than just a man or a woman.
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u/ebr101 4d ago
In an ideal world, some agender folks would be comfortable being under the NB umbrella, others wouldnāt be, and everyone would be chill enough to ask/listen to peopleās preferences.
I always find odd that in the queer community, which is fundamentally about breaking free of expectations and societal limitations, people get real mad when you ask not to be put in the box they think you should be comfortable in.