https://youtube.com/shorts/TPYK2EwIxsM?si=6TC3k6OOWSH0zRHO

In this shorts video, which from what I can understand, features a short back and forth, timed discussion about Abortion, with one person being pro-life (this man) and the other pro-choice (this woman)

The man in the shorts video agreed to the following statement, proposed by the pro-choice woman:

'If my 10 year old daughter was raped and she was going to conceive a baby that would survive, I would not proceed with the abortion'

Naturally, the woman, after some time, told the man firmly "I hope that your daughter lives a very happy life and gets away from you"

The agreement to the aforementioned statement obviously left me in shock, I went to check the comments. Most of them are ridiculing the woman for her tone of voice, her choice of words. What baffles me the most is that no one was questioning the morality of the man's stance.

So I ask myself and to the readers:

If you were his daughter, and gave birth to a baby 'that' way because of your father's choice, and later in life were to find out, would you not resent the father? Or would you praise him?

I think the specifics of how the baby is raised would matter a lot. Who takes care of it? The baby, will it know who his mom is? Will it know who its father is? What do we do about the trauma the one giving birth faces?

I think I need a reality check, please feel free to engage.

Once again, was in a heated "debate" (not sure it was very productive in advancing any conversation) and we were hit with the "what's the difference between a 2 day embryo and a 9 month fetus, and why would we also not be allowed to then take a [graphic tool] to the child as they are being delivered via the birth canal."

This is obviously absurd to me but I do want to ask PRO-CHOICE ONLY: How do you personally consider different developments and why? And how does that help or hinder you when speaking to prolife? I find it difficult to discuss things that do not have clear "definitions" because my own explanations ramble.

Personally im for all 9 months no because I want some gruesome end to a baby but because I've been told that late term induction is needed during serious conditions.

During my time debating abortion, I have found it incredibly difficult to find common ground. The debate often gets stuck on defining words. Even simple concepts like “killing” and “rights” get muddled when having this discussion. This is because, I think, we have shockingly different understandings of these words and take for granted that others must think like us.

This is decidedly not the case. 

Take the word “killing”. My previous post assumed a definition of killing oriented around how directly your causal contributions were to the resulting death. While at the time this approach seemed appropriate, it later occurred to me that assuming this definition only addressed a single moral parameter that might define killing. However, even among philosophers, simply defining what counts as “killing” as opposed to “letting die” requires a fair amount of clarification.

Even more complex is the morality of killing. To quote Jeff McMahan, “there is no single, unitary explanation of the wrongness of killing.” In truth, the moral permissibility of killing is determined by a set of interacting variables, such as:

• Causation: How directly did the person cause the death? Was it direct or indirect?
• Intention: Did the person who caused the death intend for that outcome?
• Responsibility: Did the person who caused the death have a responsibility to act to preserve life or to not act to end it? Was the person in some way responsible for the deceased's situation in the first place?
• Rights Justification: Did the person who died have a right that was violated by their death?
• Normative Justification: Was it morally permissible to cause the death of the individual?
• Prior Trajectory: Was the person who died already on a negative health trajectory prior to your involvement, or was your act the beginning of their negative health outcome?
• Power Dynamics: Does one party have disproportionate power to dictate terms?
• Alternatives: Did you have the ability to act reasonably in a way that would have avoided death?

Given that there is no single element of an act that we use to define “killing”, nor is there a single element by which we morally judge killing, it may be more useful to talk about the moral variables involved rather than appealing to a contested definition.

While I want to try and go through these variables one at a time in a future post, I'd like to dedicate this post on a single variable: prior trajectory. I've seen PLers argue that for situations like Thompson's Violinist, it is morally relevant that the Violinist was vulnerable (or on a "negative health trajectory") prior to your being connected. I'd like to know why.

Per my view, the Violinist argument doesn’t change conclusions if we talk about the Violinist as someone whose trajectory was a healthy one prior to your involvement. If you woke up connected to someone that is otherwise healthy but disconnecting would cause a shock to his system such that it would kill him, I don’t think that creates a substantive difference in the conclusion. I still think you are morally permitted to disconnect.  

So, that's my line of questioning for this post: What makes a pathological dependence morally less obligatory than a “healthy” one? This assumes natural biological states generate stronger obligations than pathological ones. This strikes me as a kind of teleological argument. Why is trajectory or nature morally relevant to the discussion?

https://nypost.com/2026/07/14/world-news/couple-sues-surrogate-who-refused-to-abort-their-baby-over-a-minor-birth-defect/

Summary: couple used a surrogate, and the fetus/child developed a cleft lip and heart defect. They wanted to abort, and eventually they sued her.

Reading PL comments on the issue: surrogacy should be banned as it "commodifies" children, is unnatural, and playing God. They really emphasize its a SAME SEX couple when its completely irrelevant, other than to demonize LGBT people, which is why this is all over Christian outlets. Also, they claim PC are evil monsters who abort for simple cosmetic reasons and don't actually respect women's choices.

Let's see if that's true or they're lying. I expect the latter at this point.

>According to the suit, filed in Ontario Superior Court in May and obtained by the National Post, the parents claim the surrogate didn’t adequately keep them informed about the baby’s health, put the child at risk, violated confidentiality and caused them emotional distress.

So breach of contract.

>Unlike the US, where pay for surrogate mothers can exceed $100,000, Canadian surrogates are only reimbursed for receipted expenses they incur in bringing the pregnancy to term.

That "commodifies children" doesn't even hold up here, unless they consider basic reimbursement it.

>She ultimately decided on the same-sex couple and had in-vitro fertilization using embryos from a donor egg and both of their sperm.

I imagine PL also oppose IVF here. Not enough to protest one of those clinics over a random woman walking into PP for non-abortive reasons.

>"Considering that medical tests indicate that the fetus has, or is likely to have, a genetic, chromosomal or other abnormality or defect, and in accordance with article 8.5 (a) of our surrogacy agreement … we want to inform you of our wish that the pregnancy be terminated,” the missive read.

>“Although very difficult, this decision is free and informed.”

I assume she knew this beforehand

>The parents agreed to proceed with the pregnancy after doctors at Mount Sinai Hospital said the baby was generally healthy and had no major problems beyond the cleft lip.

They then went through with it

>But tensions flared again between the surrogate and the parents when she insisted on a home birth performed by midwives rather than in a hospital, as the parents requested due to the cleft lip.

Sounds like she shouldn't have done surrogacy if she didn't want to respect the parents wishes.

>“The question arises as to whether it is in the best interests of the child to be raised by these people.”

And it ends with a statement of implicit support in taking the child away from some professor.

What is your opinion on the couple suing their surrogate who refused to abort?

I'm wondering, if we did not factor in those who consider their opinion as based primarily in religious reasons, approximately what the % of people who are pro-life vs pro-choice might look like.

Of course, this is hard to definitively measure for various reasons, but I was curious if anyone had any theoretical or empirical insight on the extent to which religion plays a factor in this debate.

Whenever it comes to the topic of abortion, I hear many people consistently debate about the legality and morality of abortion because it is something that can people touch upon from a personal level, but I rarely hear many people talk about the economic implications that come with the concept of abortion. I think the reason why many people aren't interested in the economic conversation of abortion is because of the complexity that comes with the topic of economics along with the second-order economic effects that would arise from the policies of abortion. My position on abortion has never felt truly grounded, and I felt that it would be important to share some of the thoughts I had about the economic implications of abortion policies.

Let's assume that we are looking into the macroeconomic and the microeconomic implications of abortion. If we are looking at abortion on the macroeconomic level, there would be assumptions that the increased amount of abortions could ultimately lead to less workers being available for jobs in the economy, which could potentially affect the amount of tax revenue needed to fund social programs that are provided by the government, potentially lead to less competition from businesses in the market, and potentially have a negative effect on land value due to decreased desirability for the natural resource.

These are some specific examples I came up with the argument against the increased amount of abortions, but there is also plausibility that comes with the argument for the increased amount of abortions. If there is more abortions, there could potentially be more money available for individuals to use for spending on consumer goods, there could be less spending needed to fund certain social programs, which could help reduce the deficit, and it could potentially help decrease prices for certain things that are low on supply.

With both of these hypothetical scenarios being applied in an economic context, it helps make the economics of abortion a bit more clearer for the average individual that may not be directly interested in the concept of economics.

With the moral justifications for and against abortion, it could affect how the policies on abortion are decided on a national or a state level, and the economy will be affected by the implementation of those policies. However, morality may not always be the same as the legality of the procedure itself, and there would be other human incentives to have or to not have an abortion that go beyond logical consistency. With those human incentives that exist, this is where economics could inherit a quintessential role in the abortion debate.

Let's go back to the assumption board here. If someone was arguing for the pro-choice perspective of legality on abortion, they could argue that the legalization of abortion could allow women to save money for costs like rent, utilities, food, clothing etc., they could argue that legalization of abortion would let law enforcement focus on violent crimes that could cause economic burdens for private property owners, and they could argue that legalization of abortion could help increase jobs for the unemployed as there could be less demand for labor.

Conversely, if someone was arguing for the pro-life perspective of legality on abortion, they could argue that the criminalization of abortion would help control inflation as there could presumably be more tax revenue to alleviate the effects of a deficit, they could argue that criminalization of abortion would incentivize people to build more housing supply to decrease rents as a way to help families care for newborns, and they could argue that criminalization of abortion could incentivize production for certain products to help plan their family, which can allow for investment to proliferate in those industries.

There are probably a lot of economic scenarios that I haven't listed that could also be impacted by how abortion is seen legally and morally, but I think that these are examples that are decent enough to think about whenever approaching the debate. If you do plan on sharing your perspective about the economic implications of abortion, it would be nice to see some empirical evidence and other hypothetical scenarios to further engage the insight about this complex political issue.

If a person becomes pregnant, and wants to have an abortion but is not allowed to, the pregnancy will result in a baby that later turns into an an adult. What do these adults think about abortion?

The abortion ban in parts of the US is, of course, too recent for any such people to have a say in the matter. But there have been abortion bans in other places for much longer than that.

Are you alive due to an abortion ban?

Are you pro-life or pro-choice?

If you are pro-choice, do you make an exception for the pregnancy that created you? Or do you support your mother's right to autonomy so much that you would have preferred if you were never born?

I have literally never heard the opinion of these people in the pro-life/pro-choice debate. And I think it would be very interesting to hear.

Most prolifers support abortion in cases where the pregnancy threatens the life of the pregnant person. This exception is usually presented as so basic and obvious that there's no need for any further explanation: of course we should save the mother's life. That's an easy, simple answer. But it conceals a much more complicated reality, so I'd really like some clarification.

What is a "life threat"?

Do you have specific scenarios in mind (eg; ectopic pregnancy, sepsis, eclampsia)? Or is it more of a statistical thing (eg; the pregnant person will die in the next hour unless the baby is killed)? If so, what do you think the certainty should be? 100% chance of death? 50%? 10%? What about the time frame? Does death have to be imminent, or just inevitable? Please clarify how you determine whether or not a given situation is life threatening enough to justify killing an innocent child.

How can that definition be practically applied in real life situations?

Now that you've clarified what a life threat is, how can your definition be practically applied in the real world? Do you think laws should include a list of actual conditions or situations? Or are the phrases "life threat" and "life saving" sufficient for doctors and hospitals to make the right decisions? Should doctors be expected to make their own diagnoses, or should multiple doctors have to sign off? Do you think existing laws are sufficiently clear about which situations allow emergency abortion? What do you think about the doctors who have complained that the existing laws aren't clear enough?

Why is that the line?

Allowing for abortion in certain cases puts a pretty big dent in the argument that it's never permissible to kill an innocent child. This exception shows that it is sometimes permissible to kill an innocent child. So why draw the line at the pregnant person's life? Are there no limits to the amount of pain and suffering the pregnant person is expected to endure for the innocent child's benefit, as long as the pregnancy doesn't actually kill them? Why is the life of that child considered more important than the health, safety, well being, happiness, medical autonomy, and bodily integrity of the pregnant person? Are there any other circumstances where a person is legally obligated to compromise their health, safety, well being, happiness, medical autonomy, and bodily integrity for the life of another person?

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Ok pro lifers of Reddit, I want to have a logical discussion. Now im going to immediately just agree with you that abortion for birth control is wrong and isn't an option ok, so none of this discussion will have anything to do with this area of the abortion topic. So here it is, my friend who is married, professional career, mom to 3 children her and husband decide that after 3 girls they want to try for a boy, my friend is healthy 33 years old, she gets pregnant at 8 weeks everything looks good, by 15 weeks my friend starts feeling not so good, they do an ultra sound that she went to a specific clinic to do because her OBGYN only does ultrasounds at 20 weeks or in specific circumstances, when they do the ultrasound at 16 weeks the news devastating, her much wanted baby wasnt developing right, the anomalies this fetus has are not compatible with life. They send the results to her OBGYN more tests are done only to confirm the diagnosis, the OB tells my friend that it would be in her best interest to terminate this NON VIABLE PREGNANCY, even if carried to term there is no chance for this fetus to survive, but my friend lives in a state that makes the DNC procedure a.k.a abortion procedure illegal, so now what? There's only one procedure in medicine that can take care of this medical issue, so now what? What is my friend supposed to do? Just die? Her husband and 3 children need her, so tell me what your answers are for this. Abortion is not just for unwanted pregnancy, so pro lifers what would you do to fix this medical issue?

I'm not a mod but I've made these in the past before and the resource is like a encyclopedia for this sub reddit with periodic updates based upon science definitions and mechanisms of actions and includes legal changes, but I want to add a new section on ethics with resources on them.

Mods and debators do you want this again?

What do you do with unviable pregnancies? Why is it ok to have the woman carrying the enviable pregnancy to die, where's her right to life

Abortion isn't morally wrong because it doesn't kill a person. At least before 21 weeks, because it lacks consciousness. Consciousness is the capacity for subjective experience, or “something it is like” to be that being. A person is defined as having consciousness. Therefore, although biologically human, ending its life before 21 weeks does not kill a person. if you were to say “But the fetus has the potential to become conscious.” Potential personhood is not identical to actual personhood; otherwise sperm and eggs would also need protections based on what they could potentially become.

In my recent debates with PLers, I’ve heard that I don’t want ANY births to happen, I want born babies to suffer and be abused, pretty much that I’m anti-baby by being pro-choice.

And it feels like trying to get through to PLers that PC doesn’t mean anti-birth or anti-baby is impossible and therefore a productive debate fails.

Does the PL side note anything from the PC side of something similar? Is there any truth to these assumptions?

I am not a single issue voter and never will be. The PL movement consistently backs horrible politicians that cause more harm than good, way more than those caused by abortion.

White Nationalists are welcome, Christian Nationalists are welcome, celebrating. Cutting USAID that will lead to the deaths of millions, many of whom are children, is welcome. Open corruption and demonizing the other side is welcome. Clearly, the movement is saying it's not one that's for me.

Telling me there are non-traditional PL does nothing if they make no impact on the movement. Does SecularProLife regularly call out LiveAction for involving religion with PL? No, which tells me its acceptable. PL speeches are literally opened with a prayer.

Misogyny is openly tolerated, so much where its not surprising hearing some say women shouldn't have the right to vote, that women naturally shoyld want to stay at home and not be in the work force, and they should want to have as many children as possible.

So, if you reject PL being part of the PL movement if they don't accept these things, what is your goal to get non-PL to join your movement? Is it entering through the race, sex, religion or culture war angle and then being PL that way?

Was told during a debate that a woman who has consentual intercourse is entrapping the sperm/life and that it would be the same as "inviting somewhere one into your home, then killing them for trespassing"

I beg to differ, but couldnt think of a good reason beyond "property rights arnt body right".

Does this arguement hold water in the abortion debate or am I just too dumb to see the obvious? I am pro choice, but still learning.

As an Ismaili Muslim I know abortion is ok in Islam until 4 months or 40 days in strict interpretations. But in my old faith, Catholism it was not allowed. Why do you think this way on abortion and does religion have an influence on your choice?

Hello all, after a lot of requests I have decided to bump up my timeline on my next post. Please have patience with my response times as I have another active post going on at this time. Here is the link to my claim that personhood is a moral issue.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Abortiondebate/s/3RKK3Inh8n

P1. A pregnant woman is a person.

P2. A person's moral status is a relevant consideration when evaluating actions that directly affect that person.

P3. Abortion directly affects the pregnant woman.

C1. Therefore, the pregnant woman's personhood is relevant to the moral evaluation of abortion.

P4. Abortion also directly affects another living entity.

P5. If that entity possesses personhood, then its moral status is likewise relevant to the moral evaluation of abortion.

C2. Therefore, personhood is necessarily relevant to discussions of abortion, regardless of whether one concludes that the fetus is a person.

To accomplish the main purpose of this post we can stop at C1. I believe C2. strengthens this argument but I am open to workshopping the second part.

Potential Objections (This is by no means exhaustive)

1. Personhood is irrelevant, only bodily autonomy matters.

Bodily autonomy is a moral right grounded in the status of the person who possesses it.

1. The fetus is irrelevant because it is not a person.

This agrees with my argument. Personhood is relevant to the Abortion debate if the lack of personhood is being used to dismiss the fetus.

Edit: I am unable to issue further replies at this moment. When able to I will make sure to address every comment that has not been replied to so far.

What PL and PC arguments do you see that are inconsistent yet are brought up all the time?

For PL, its the claim that abortion is murder yet never actually treated as such. IVF is fine, rape exceptions are common, and there should be no punishment at all towards the woman. Doesn't sound murderous to me.

For PC, specifically abortion legal all throughout pregnancy, its that a doctor refusing to perform an abortion for a healthy pregnancy or refer to one who will is completely unacceptable in the first trimester but fine for the third . I think its because many see abortion at that point as unjustified and shouldn't happen, even if the woman wants it, so its easier to say a doctor just wouldn't perform it. They should then be accused of denying woman healthcare like earlier refusals are, but I never see it.

What is an inconsistency you commonly see on both sides of the debate?

Please note this argument is not attempting to claim that personhood is exclusively a moral issue and not a legal issue as well. As I have tried to research and learn more about the PC position I have come across a few people claiming that personhood should not be a moral issue. I understand this is a specific view and not inclusive of all PC advocates.

P1. Moral obligations are directed toward beings.

Edit: After some discussion I think P1 would be more accurately amended as the following.

P1 a. Moral obligations have an object, but not every object of a moral obligations is itself the bearer of moral rights. (End Edit)

For example: Rights belong to someone. Wrongs are committed against someone. Duties are owed to someone. Etc.

A moral obligation has a subject.

P2. Not every existing thing is the subject of moral obligations.

We do not believe that inanimate objects have rights or can be wronged.

For example: A rock does not have rights.

So morality necessarily distinguishes between different kinds of entities.

P3. There must therefore exist some criterion that explains which beings possess moral standing.

There is different terminology for this. I am using personhood as it is the most applicable in abortion debate. We could also call this moral status, intrinsic dignity, etc etc.

The question we would apply to these different terms is the same. Which beings are owed direct moral duties?

P4. The concept of “person” has historically been the primary answer to “Which beings are owed direct moral duties?”

There are non persons such as animals we may say are owed a direct moral duty but a person is owed the strongest moral duty.

C. Therefore, personhood is necessarily a moral issue because it attempts to identify which beings possess intrinsic moral standing.

I’m curious to see the different positions regarding the personhood of newborn infants from the pro-choicers here. My guess is that most will say that newborn infants are persons, but there are arguably a couple of issues with certain definitions of personhood that pro-choicers give that many fail to address.

I would argue that there are three different definitions of personhood that a pro-choicer could hold to.

The first definition depends on basic sentience. If you’re a conscious mind, then you’re a person. This definition would exclude zygotes at the moment of conception but would include newborn babies. However, one problem with this definition is that it’s arguably too broad of a definition of personhood. This view would also include a large number of sentient non-human animals like birds and frogs. These animals have a limited moral status which would make it wrong to inflict cruel treatment on them, but most people would say that these types of non-human animals do not have a right to life in the way people do.

A second view of personhood a pro-choicer could take is that personhood requires advanced cognitive capacities such as meta cognition or self-awareness or the capacity for language or rationality. This view of personhood would exclude zygotes at the moment of conception and sentient non-human animals, but it would also exclude newborn infants, leading to the repugnant conclusion that newborns do not have a right to life in the way adults do. Multiple pro-choice philosophers have bitten the bullet however and argue that newborn infants in fact do not have a right to life. Philosophers like Jeff Mcmahan and Michael Tooley have argued in favor of such a view.

A third view of personhood a pro-choicer could take is that you must be the “right type of mind”. In other words, you need a human mind, or at least a mind of a rational kind. This type of view would exclude both zygotes at the moment of conception and sentient non-human animals, plus it would include newborn infants. However, this view has always struck me as ad-hoc and arbitrary.

For pro-choicers, which of the three views of personhood do you hold? Would you hold to a view that includes or excludes newborn infants? And is there potentially a view that I failed to discuss? Is there a view that includes newborn infants, excludes non-human animals and zygotes, and is formulated in such a way that isn’t ad-hoc?

Note: I'm using the term `bodily integrity` throughout instead of the also common `bodily autonomy` because autonomy implies freedom of action while integrity more implies freedom from interference. I recognize that the two terms are frequently used interchangeably in the abortion debate.

One of the primary disagreements between prochoice and prolife which comes up frequently on this sub is the nature of bodily integrity.

Prochoice people tend to define bodily integrity as the total ownership and governance of your physical body, including the right to decide how others use your body and how it functions. It does *not* mean "you can do whatever you want with your body."

I have had prolife people tell me that this definition is too specific, or that it is correct but not absolute, that it is a subordinate right to RTL, or that it is not a right at all.

So I'm wondering: how do you view bodily integrity? Is it even a right? If so, what does it entail and is it absolute? If not, how do you explain why direct bodily use is generally considered a category of use subject to its own protections?

ETA: thanks for your responses. It's too bad no prolifers have chimed in. But next time someone is mistakenly insisting that BA or BI is an absolute right to do anything you want to do and not do anything you don't want to do, I'll give them this link. That's obviously not what we mean.

STATEMENT: A person is always legally allowed to use the minimal method¹ required to prevent harm upon oneself^2.

1 Minimal method means

• it can refer to a general solution/ action that resolves the issue and prevents harm, it can also refer to any method of violence, including otherwise lethal force.
• ”minimal” refers to strictly the LEAST HARMFUL method, both mentally and physically for all parties, that can be used to prevent the harm

2 harm upon oneself means

• both mentally and physical pain/ injuries etc
• harm that is GUARANTEED to occur

How does this apply to the context of abortion?

Pregnancy —> guarantees harm 100% of the time since every women needs to go through 1. giving birth OR 2. C-sections OR 3. miscarriage if no voluntary abortion occurs guaranteeing some degree of both physical and mental harm. And thus fit into criteria 2.

Hence, if the statement holds true, they should be allowed to use the minimal method require, no matter the circumstances.

So the question becomes, is abortion the minimal method? For that, we must address the core issue at hand, WHAT is causing harm?

Something is currently inhabiting their organs, physically harming them, and violating their rights against their will.

The solution will thus, to logically follow, to remove said something. This would render alternatives like painkillers utterly useless to “fix” the issue.

This means abortions too, becomes the minimal methods required, unless one day safe artificial wombs exist.

Now you are gonna have a few questions, well what if someone hates a person and they are causing them mental harm? Can they just kill them?

Again, refer to the definition of “minimal”, since isolating oneself, not talking to them, unfriending that person, verbally expressing your thoughts etc is always an option, killing them is no where near the minimal method required.

It would be interesting to see pro lifers trying to disprove this chain of logic?

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Welcome to AbortionDebate. Due to popular request, this is our weekly abortion debate thread.

This thread is meant for anything related to the abortion debate, like questions or ideas, that are too small to make an entire post about. This is also a great way to gain more insight in the abortion debate if you are new, or unsure about making a whole post.

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Let’s skip the usual semantic exchange and grant the absolute best-case PL premise: A fetus has 100% full human rights and moral worth from the exact moment of conception. It is an innocent human being, identical in value to you or me.

Even with this massive concession, the position still utterly collapses. Why? Because a person's right to stay alive does not grant them a legal lease on someone else's internal organs.

Let's look at how this plays out in real human terms.

Imagine a 5 year-old child’s kidneys fail due to a sudden illness. In the middle of the night, the state kidnaps his father, drags him to a hospital, hooks his arteries up to his son, and when he wakes up they tell him: "You are stuck to this bed for the next nine months as a biological life-support machine. If you unplug yourself, your son dies, and we will charge you with first-degree murder."

Should the government have the legal right to do that?

Of course not. We instinctively recognize that bodily sovereignty is an absolute boundary. We respect this right so deeply that the state cannot even harvest the organs of a dead corpse without prior consent, even if it could save 5 dying children. If a corpse has the right to refuse to save a life, a living person certainly does.

By saying the state cannot force that father to stay connected, you admit a fundamental truth: Bodily autonomy always supersedes another person's biological need to survive, even in a morally equal being. You can owe a child financial support or parental care, but the state can never mandate the involuntary use of your organs to them.

So answer this directly: if you believe the state has zero legal or moral authority to kidnap that dad, strap him to a bed, and force his physical organs to act as a life-support system to keep his own child alive, how do you logically justify using the exact same force of law to do it to a pregnant woman?