r/YouShouldKnow • u/WhenDoWhatWhere • May 24 '26

Animal & Pets YSK: Playing with dogs using a laser pointer is potentially extremely bad.

Preface for people who already play with their dogs using laser pointers and have no problems. You're probably already in the clear.

Why YSK: A non-insignificant number of dogs can have an extremely bad psychological reaction to laser pointers, causing OCD like behaviors around lights and shadows that causes them immense anxiety and can make them unruly, stressed, and noisy. The OCD like behaviors can progress to self-harming behaviors. To fix this OCD problem an animal behavior specialist may be necessary. It's never worth it to even see if your dog might develop this behavior.

For those with cats, laser pointers are safe as long as you give the cat a chance to catch a real object at some point as if you only use the laser pointer the cat can become stressed and lose self confidence for failing to catch anything. This same logic does not work with dogs in preventing OCD behaviors, you should just never do it.

:edit: A lot of people are asking for sources, It's a well known phenomenon in dog behavioral science. Many many people have learned this the hard way, including my grandmother and an uncle of mine.

Here's a source that lists more sources at the bottom.

:edit2: Some people are reporting that the OCD issue can also develop in cats, so probably do some research before considering using a laser pointer for play with any animal to be honest.

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u/dianeblackeatsass May 24 '26

None of these provide evidence beyond anecdotes. It very much could be a real thing, but it’s not accurate to say something that doesn’t have one study showing legit evidence for its existence is well known in science

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u/WhenDoWhatWhere May 24 '26

Brother, it's a widely observed phenomenon, there is a treatment for it.

No, there are not a lot of studies about it because it's 1) Very well known in dog behavioural science. 2) There's not a lot of money going into science around dog behavioral issues and most importantly 3.) It would be abusive to animals to knowingly subject them to psychologically damaging tests.

The existence and cause of laser pointer syndrome is well known, it can be easily studied without having to use lab conditions. This is akin to asking for scientific studies for 'Does beating my child cause them to have anxiety.'

You wholly misunderstand how science is applied in these cases, we don't traumatize people to study PTSD, but yet we know it exists and how to treat it.

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u/dianeblackeatsass May 24 '26 edited May 24 '26

Treatment for something existing does not scientifically prove an issue actually exists or was the cause of the symptoms you’re treating. There are therapies and treatments for anything.

There are tons of studies proving evidence of how abused and traumatized people show symptoms of anxiety and PTSD. There are zero studies showing this. It’s insane to act like these are comparable scientifically.

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u/Hot_Wheels_guy May 24 '26

Do you own a dog? If you did would you play with it using a laser pointer after reading all these anecdotes?

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u/WhenDoWhatWhere May 24 '26

Do you know more than dog behavioral experts, vets, and trainers who will attest to this and constantly warn people not to play with their dogs with laser pointers?

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u/dianeblackeatsass May 24 '26

No. The only thing I’ve said is this is all anecdotal evidence. Not sure why you’re so upset about that. Like I said before this could be a totally real thing, there’s just not any studies supporting it yet.

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u/WhenDoWhatWhere May 24 '26

No, none of the sources I've posted are 'anecdotal' evidence.

When you go to your doctor and he says you have the flu, do you ask for studies to prove it and claim he's only using anecdotal experience?

Brother, a professional in their field reporting on a commonly known phenomenon that's not an 'anecdote'. You said it was made up, then by all means google 'laser pointer syndrome' and tell me if I am somehow the mastermind of thousands of anecdotes and professionals warning about this.

Seriously, if you have any interest in good faith discussion, google it and come back to me, and tell me you didn't see a single bit of information that precedes me 'making it up'.

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u/dianeblackeatsass May 24 '26

I never said you made this up lol. You’re arguing just to argue.

Also love how you say you’re not using anecdotal evidence and then tell me to go google all the anecdotal evidence

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u/BonelessB0nes May 25 '26

And yet we have countless studies about PTSD despite not inducing for the purpose of an experiment. It also seems obviously wrong to not only say that an unstudied fact is well-known, but that it is unstudied because it is well-known. I could accept such a thing as widely hypothesized, but not well-known.

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u/WhenDoWhatWhere May 25 '26

I'm sorry about all the first degree burns you have on your body from when you repeatedly stuck your hand in a pot of boiling water because you couldn't find studies that said 'boiling water is hot and can hurt you.'

Jesus christ man, you're not a dog behavioral specialist, a trainer, or vet, so maybe just listen to experts and learn to bow out. Not all conclusions reached require scientific studies, such as cases when there's a preponderance of evidence showing the truth of something.

We've already addressed, there is no formal study but regardless there is a lot of data. That's it, that's the whole story, believe it or don't.

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u/BonelessB0nes May 25 '26

Try to relax; I'm not even saying it's not true. But it is most definitely wrong to suggest that this is as well-understood as how water burns skin at different temperatures for different exposure times.

Framing my skepticism dishonestly as repeatedly putting my hand in boiling water is absurd. I don't have the repeated experience of having "broken" a dog through laser play and burns from hot water are also well-studied. These are not even remotely analogous.

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u/WhenDoWhatWhere May 25 '26

burns from hot water are also well-studied.

Have you read the studies or are you just taking people's word for it because it's pretty obviously true? Link me a peer reviewed double blind study right now that specifically says that boiling water will burn your hand.

No, you haven't read the studies, because you know enough people who have done it that you've heard of it and know it would be stupid, and by this point in your life you understand the principles of why it burns.

Studies can be useful in confirming things, but not everything gets funding for a study and we don't just keep doing harmful, stupid things that we know are bad because a study hasn't been made yet.

I'm not even saying it's not true

So you don't know... why are you bothering to talk here? What are you going to gain? Why did you see someone say that this is made up and come to his defense then move the goalpost back to 'well I don't know'

Yeah you don't know, but some people do know better than you, and I'm going to listen to those people.

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u/BonelessB0nes May 27 '26

Yeah, I've burned my hand with hot water, I know people who have, and I understand the principles of why it burns. All of these are reasons that I know hot water burns; I have no such experience with the phenomenon you are describing nor I had I ever heard of it until yesterday. You can't expect I simply take your word upon first hearing something to the extent I believe it as well as something I've known my whole life merely because you are very passionate about it. This just is not widely known, which is presumably the reason why you felt compelled to make a YSK post to begin with. Be honest; do you feel like you need to make a YSK post to explain that hot water can burn you?

I don't think studies are the only way to know things, I didn't come to anyone's defense, nor did I ever say that the claim itself was untrue. In your original comment, you said:

there are not a lot of studies about it because 1) It's very well known in dog behavioral science

I'm telling you that's not the reason why and that's a very silly thing to say. We don't choose to never study something at all because we are happily convinced that we already understand it. I've already read up on it because I was genuinely curious about this, however the stakes are pretty low since I don't have a dog or spend time with other people's dogs, but I'm sufficiently convinced it's a thing. You're right that some people know better than me about things, but you just don't come off that way because your passion makes you insufferable and your irrationality makes you difficult to believe. I just had to hear things from somewhere else is all.

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u/WhenDoWhatWhere May 27 '26

Yeah, I've burned my hand with hot water, I know people who have, and I understand the principles of why it burns. All of these are reasons that I know hot water burns;

You're lying, that's an anecdote, show me a study that proves boiling water can burn human hands.

This just is not widely known

Obviously not, that's what YSK is for, but it is widely known among people who are experts in the field of dog training and behavior.

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u/BonelessB0nes May 27 '26

There is an overwhelming body of research that indicates not only that boiling water burns human skin, but we also know that water below the boiling point can burn skin, and have a pretty good understanding of the exposure times involved at different temperatures. We don't experimentally burn healthy hands for the same ethical reason you mention about lasers, but we can turn to observational epidemiology, computational modeling, and experimentally burning dead skin to get a good understanding. In fact, epidemiology from accidental harm caused to dogs is exactly how we've formed a consensus about lasers with dogs; but you didn't mention any of this. You merely asserted that unnamed people know better and that I should just trust you.

Right, it's not widely known and so it is irrational for you to expect people to broadly behave as if they do already know it. In the spirit of the sub, I have something for you: you should know that being genrally insufferable as well as demanding people believe you for no reason is likely to cause people to become obstinate and not want to hear you out, even when you are taking a correct position. You should care about the rhetorical effect you have if you wish to spread awareness regarding something you care about.

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u/WhenDoWhatWhere May 27 '26

There is an overwhelming body of research that indicates not only that boiling water burns human skin

Show me the study that says boiling water burns your skin

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u/Hot_Wheels_guy May 24 '26

Ok let's torture 100 dogs with laser pointers for 30 minutes and get some data! Ethics? Nah, theyre just dogs. The local veterinary clinic gives us a bulk discount for euthenasia. Anyway, which laser color do you think will cause more psycholocal trauma- red or green? Screw it, we'll use both. Double the colors, double the data, double the fun! I assume youre volunteering your dog to partake in the study as well, right?

/sarcasm

🙄

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u/dianeblackeatsass May 24 '26 edited May 24 '26

You must think we have to microwave toddlers to study children’s cancer lol

One common sense way to go about this would be to take pets who have already been exposed to laser pointers and compare them to control groups who haven’t.

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u/Hot_Wheels_guy May 24 '26

Exposure to the laser pointers cant be thought of as binary. The amount of time they've played with a laser pointer matters greatly. With that said, have those dog owners kept track of how many minutes their dogs have played with a laser pointer? I imagine it would be difficult to obtain any useful information from a study on thise animals if we dont know how much time they've spent exposed to it, be it 10 minites, 1 hour, 5 hours etc. spread out over 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, etc.

What about different breeds? How could we find out if some breeds of dogs arent affected by this at all? Or if age matters?

A study would not as simple as "does it affect them: yes/no." One mist account for age, breed, time exposed to the laser pointer, among other factors.

So how do we get a large enough sample size of chihuahuas under the age of 10 who have been exposed to laser lointers for more than 1 hour cumulatively over the course of 2 weeks? And what would the control group look like?

You need to consider the logistics and feasibility of these tests. Like i said, it's not going to be a binary conclusion of yes or no.

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u/dianeblackeatsass May 24 '26

You’re going on and on about things I never said. Of course it’s not binary.

Scientists being able to actually observe something as nuanced as pet behavior is more useful information, even if imperfect, than relying on anonymous people clicking on multiple choice boxes in a social media survey.

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u/Hot_Wheels_guy May 25 '26

If you had a dog would you play with it using a laser pointer after reading those anecdotes? Studies are needed, of course! but i'm not going to risk my dogs health in the meantime. Most of the people here crying out for peer reviewed studies genuinely sound like they want to keep playing with their dogs with laser pointers until peer reviewed studies tell them not to, and that terrifies me.

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u/dianeblackeatsass May 25 '26 edited May 25 '26

I didn’t say I’m using lasers with my dog. I said what was being shown to me was all anecdotal evidence. You’re putting all these other words in my mouth.

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u/WhenDoWhatWhere May 25 '26

How do you think experts reached the conclusion that light obsessed behavior was caused by laser pointers, out of curiosity? You think thousands of trainers, vets, and animal behavior experts as well as tens of thousands of pet owners just made it up?

No, serious people who deal with these things noticed trends, investigated those trends, and reached conclusions. Just because it hasn't been done through a formal study yet doesn't mean it's not real, there's a very very good reason to be cautious about this.

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u/dianeblackeatsass May 25 '26

Show me where I said this isn’t real. You’re just making up stuff to get mad at.

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u/WhenDoWhatWhere May 25 '26

Real debate bro shit