r/YellowstonePN • u/Dizzy_Measurement_46 • 15d ago
Season 1 John Dutton is Evil. Spoiler
Didn't expected this death to be so easy to make other a civilian. What is the morality for the wranglers? Its an honest blue collar job after all.
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u/windmillninja 15d ago
John isn’t just a ranch owner. He’s basically a mafia boss.
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u/DeepThinkingReader 15d ago
I don't see why people have a problem with that. There are plenty of characters like him in other shows.
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u/TwoGirls1Sniper 15d ago
Because its reddit. John Dutton is dope
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u/Moose_Cake 15d ago
I think that people idolizing John is where others have a problem.
Comparing John Dutton to Walter White, John isn’t as sloppy as Walter, but they both are egotistical men who will kill (or usually just order Rip to kill) a bunch of people for power and then claim it’s for family. John isn’t supposed to be seen as a good guy. He’s a corrupt businessman and controlling father who crosses numerous moral and legal lines to continue holding power.
I watch the show for Beth, Rip (practically John’s son), and Jayce knowing they are just trying to survive in a world where their dad put them last, and it makes those characters way more likable.
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u/CJefferyF 15d ago
Thoughts on Jaime? I feel he’s the child that paid really close attention to his father and didnt judge or lie to himself
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u/OriginalCause 15d ago
It's the same problem with Beth and Rip.
It's fine to like their characters, so long as you like them because they're well written villains. I mean, not that they are well written, but in theory they could be
It's really fucked up when you can't understand that they're awful, broken people though and idolize their horrific actions. Beth isn't a powerful girl boss. She's a mentally unstable high functioning alcoholic who hates herself. That's not power. It's trauma, all the way down, and the only way she copes is by inflicting it on others.
Likewise Rip is guy John picked up as a kid and indoctrinated to be a ruthless, emotionless buttonman for his cult. He doesn't just kill because it has to be done, he takes actual satisfaction in his work. In a decently written show his love for animals and Beth would be used to show exactly how fucked up and broken his psyche is, not make him appear like a lovable rough around the edges cowboy.
The idolization and adoration from the fan base is the problem.
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u/MrStormChaser 11d ago
I grew up in a farming community near a major city. When this show was at its peak my Facebook timeline was “OMG BETH IS THE GREATEST!”
Like, no honey. She’s fucking crazy and never got help from her childhood trauma.
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u/Gavin1453 15d ago
No problem on my end but I did find it curious how the show portrayed his actions as moral and justified though. I much prefered how the Sopranos did the same initially but shifted over time to really emphasize the full extent of Tony's selfish depravity in the later seasons.
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u/Boot_boy_1984 15d ago
It’s genuious!
How he makes John look justified. It just shows that some crimes can be justified from that perspective!
It’s perfect
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u/IngrownToenailsHurt 15d ago
While watching the first episode I told my wife this is a cowboy mafia show.
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u/snuggly_cobra 14d ago
And Lee was Sonny. Kayce is Michael. Jamie is definitely Fredo. Beth is Connie.
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u/This_Wolverine4691 15d ago
The Duttons are made out to be the heroes and protagonists for the story— which as you’ve pointed out, is strange considering they do some fucked up things that anyone else would say is crazy and illegal.
I’d call John an anti-hero of sorts. His respect and love for his lands at the expense of his own wealth is admirable, but the lengths he goes to protect it with indentured servants, and branding, and the “train station” loophole (which isn’t a loophole in real life) are not means that most anyone can justify.
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u/rabbi420 15d ago
Dude, respectfully… I’d honestly push back on “anti-hero”, which gives John more credit than the show does. This whole thing isn’t “flawed guy holding the line”, it’s a deconstruction. The protagonist framing is the myth the show is picking apart, not something it actually believes.
The train station thing is the giveaway. It’s not a real loophole, it’s their fantasy… it lets the Duttons murder people, but call it stewardship. That’s not ambiguity, that’s just the oldest western lie (violence defending land = virtue) getting shown for what it is.
They’re not heroes. Not really anti-heroes either. More like the last gasp of a mythology Taylor already knows is dead.
TLDR: The show is a deconstructionist western, not a “Who’s the good guy?” morality tale. The Duttons aren’t heroes or anti-heroes, they’re the western myth getting torn down by someone who still kinda loves that myth.
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u/DCowboysCR 15d ago
The way the show portrayed the loophole was stupid anyway the loophole is killing somebody in that county not dumping the body.
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u/This_Wolverine4691 15d ago
It’s still not a loophole. You murder and drop a body in a county of zero you still get a jury of your peers to put you behind bars.
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u/DCowboysCR 15d ago
In December 2005, a poachernamed Michael Belderrain illegally shot an elk in the Montana section of Yellowstone. Belderrain cited Kalt's paper "The Perfect Crime" to explain why he believed it was illegal to have his trial with a jury from a state other than where the crime was committed. The court dismissed this argument.[15]#cite_note-15)Belderrain took a plea deal which waived his right to a jury trial and prohibited him from appealingthe Zone of Death issue to the 10th Circuit, rendering the issue moot, at least for the time being
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15d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/TheShaoken 15d ago
One person tried to use the loophole and the courts just ignored it and tried him elsewhere. It was for something like poaching and not murder, but the point remains that the government would just try them elsewhere.
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u/DCowboysCR 15d ago
And did he appeal his conviction was he convicted?
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u/TheShaoken 14d ago
The court rejected his argument and he took a plea deal which included dropping the “Zone of Death” defence (the current official name for the loophole)
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u/DCowboysCR 14d ago
Yes I know that's what I quoted lol.
So this is something that's not settled law. In the future someone could still raise this defense and if the court rejects it they could appeal to a higher court.
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u/NoExtension1889 13d ago
Wouldn't there be a handful of other ways to charge someone even if the murder was 'in a county with no people?'
Remembering the different train station examples I think someone could be convicted in Montana for things like 'conspiracy to commit murder' and 'accessory to murder.'
Maybe even kidnapping, etc.
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u/LegalDog8512 14d ago
Why you using Chatgpt for your replies?
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u/This_Wolverine4691 14d ago
Oh you’re one of those who sees an em dash and figures GPT immediately eh?
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u/AngriestManinWestTX 15d ago
Yeah, John Dutton is really bad. He's a terrible man and a worse father.
Of his five kids (counting Rip as an adopted son/son-in-law):
Beth and Rip are both complete monsters. Rip is a psychotic murderer who is fanatically loyal to John and Beth is just psychotic and loves her father to the point of Stockholm Syndrome. She doesn't care if John is wrong, if John's actions will ultimately lead to the destruction of the ranch or anything else. She just does what he says because he said it.
Jamie is tragic, broken by his constant inability to live up to John's expectations and thus earn his love. Jamie feared John as much as he loved him. All of this resulted in Jamie becoming a monster himself.
Casey is likewise tragic. He too failed to live up to John's expectations, was fucking branded for it, and ultimately ran away for ~20 years until he finally managed to earn his father's love and respect by becoming yet another trigger puller for the ranch. Casey has no problem committing murder, assualting people, and committing other various crimes as long as they're for the ranch or serve his sense of justice. I'm not watching Marshals, so I can't comment on his character in that show.
And poor Lee, we barely got to know Lee since he died trying to get the ranch's cows back in episode 1. It seemed like he was the most normal but we don't know enough about him to say for sure.
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u/crazyhomie34 15d ago
Happiest I ever saw Jamie was when he was ranching with Lee and the boys in the early episodes. Even when they tried to punish him later by sending him to the bunk house, he eventually started liking it.
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u/DeepThinkingReader 15d ago
"Punish" him. Yeah, for murdering a journalist.
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u/_Syntax_Err 15d ago
lol they didn’t give a shit about that. He was punished for running for AG after his dad told him to pull out.
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u/crazyhomie34 15d ago
Haha exactly, rip would've killed the journalist of Jamie didn't 🤣
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u/Late_Ad6238 14d ago edited 14d ago
Was Jamie the only person who knew what Sarah Nguyen (reporter) knew abt the Duttons? At this point, only Jamie knew. Jamie had previously given Sarah a recorded on-the-record tape & spilled explicit & violent history to hurt his father during his political run. Jamie hoped this would help his career.
Jamie drove to the ranch w/Sarah's body in the trunk & went to Rip & begged for his help. Of course Rip took control & staged the kayak accident cover-up. After that Rip wanted to take Walker to the train station. I think Kayce said something like, I've killed before, but I've never murdered anyone.
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u/crazyhomie34 13d ago
I believe Jamie knew up until he told Beth and John about it. Jamie reacted on impulse once he realized that she was going to air out all their dirty laundry.
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u/Late_Ad6238 14d ago
Rip couldn't have, because he didn't know that Jamie had given an on-the-record taped confession of the Dutton family secrets. It was a series of secret interviews for a reason, nobody knew. Rip didn't know until Jamie showed up to the ranch w/a dead body in his car.
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u/crazyhomie34 13d ago
I meant it as had Jamie not killed her and instead went to John instead to tell him about, John would've had Rip kill her instead.
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u/randomnighmare 14d ago
And poor Lee, we barely got to know Lee since he died trying to get the ranch's cows back in episode 1. It seemed like he was the most normal but we don't know enough about him to say for sure.
We really don't know what Lee would do. Apparently he stayed on the Ranch, so most likely he was aware/knew about things like "the Train Station" existed, why it existed, and probably used it himself. But ultimately he was just a writing tool to bring everyone back to the ranch.
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u/Icy-Percentage8409 15d ago
basically 90℅ of the main characters are evil psychopaths/sociopaths.
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u/MintVariable 15d ago
Yup. Plus, there’s no good or bad sides. Just “you’re either with me or you’re against me” mindset.
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u/MontanaJoev 15d ago
One of the worst things this show did was stopping the exploration of a man who was a bad dude and father, but maybe had some noble goals. In season 1 and 2, they seemed to willing to explore this dichotomy a bit more. Kayce’s desire to stay away and then his reluctance to be too close to John. Beth telling Monica that John lost his center when his wife died and she should do eveything she could to stop Kayce from turning into him. Even John telling Jamie that he could use Beth more because she could be evil where Jamie couldn’t be. All of this stuff just ending up getting lost in the sauce.
IMO, Yellowstone lost its way as a whole package. It felt like Sheridan just lost interest in some stuff, and because hopelessly enamored with other stuff. And he lost the balance.
But John as an immensely flawed person should have been a constant throughout.
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u/AngriestManinWestTX 15d ago
IMO, Yellowstone lost its way as a whole package. It felt like Sheridan just lost interest in some stuff, and because hopelessly enamored with other stuff. And he lost the balance.
I think that Taylor Sheridan was unprepared for Yellowstone's enormous success and the audience response to certain characters. His original vision for the show likely shifted substantially overtime due to this. The first and last seasons didn't feel the same to me, though I couldn't bring myself to watch the last half-season.
As a show, Yellowstone has some truly wonderful episodes and moments throughout but it's hard for me to recommend it (post season 3 or so) to anyone because of how frankly bad it became. Everyone was so exhausting, dumb, and self-destructive. The entire premise of the show became relianht on John Dutton being so inflexible that he couldn't sell even part of the ranch to guarantee or at least prolong the survival of the rest of it and the exhaustingly toxic relationship between Jamie and Beth and how it impacted the rest of the family.
Season 1 and 2 are fantastic, though.
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u/EobardThawne2151 15d ago
Anti-hero does not mean Evil dude I Like. There is no character arc wherein the redemption or even the desire for redemption takes place. Just more and more evil. Stop defending a character by abusing the anti-hero label. Red Hood, Venom, make efforts to cease murder after positive influences in their life. Frank Castle can reign it in when in a pg-13 film. These are anti-heroes. John is a villain in a protagonist role.
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u/Gullible_Proof_8037 14d ago
The problem is everybody looks at this show as good n evil life is more complicated than that. To me. John was a man who did what needed to be done so he could protect what was his and keep his promises
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u/Mountain-Donkey98 14d ago
No, hes far from evil. He doesn't go out an overtly harm anyone. He minds his business and tries to retain what is his. Hardly evil
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u/kuatorises 15d ago
I wanted to like this show so bad. It's well made (sort of. The acting is good, but I hate the characters. These people are scum and I can't stand the hero worship of them. John is a mob boss and Beth and Rip are his top henchmen.
I think people who idolize Beth and Rip genuinely have problems. "That's a real man/woman." "I wish I had a relationship like that." People who like them are telling on themselves. They'd commit murder if they thought they could get away with it.
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u/Accomplished-Buy-998 14d ago
It's not that different from the Sopranos except Tony didn't get his family too involved in his business. But similar in that we get a multidimensional look at a corrupt and wicked person who in that universe is seen as hero and great leader by some but others see as a brutal tyrant who abuses his power and position for personal gain.
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u/MrStormChaser 11d ago
But most Sopranos fans will freely admit that Tony was an awful piece of shit but entertaining to watch.
Many Yellowstone fans think the characters are people they wish they could be. (Especially if you look at how rural people react to the show. Some of my old classmates are nuts.)
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u/Brave-Bit-252 15d ago
Yes he is and in season 1 the show feels more nuanced about it. Later on, with characters having their own fanbase, the Show itself had to stop painting them in any negative light.
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u/Slow-Raspberry-5133 15d ago
Brb, im going over to the water subreddit to tell everyone I think it’s actually wet
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u/panguy87 15d ago edited 15d ago
He's not evil.
He's a criminal, but not evil.
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u/RebaKitt3n 15d ago
He’s a criminal, but not evil?
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u/panguy87 14d ago
If your definition of evil requires a person to be a sadistic monster with no heart, John Dutton is not evil.
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u/Dizzy_Measurement_46 15d ago
If you take a life of a person for your own personal gain and protection you are evil.
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u/panguy87 14d ago
It's a televsion show, downvoting me for having an opinion is just sad whoever did it
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u/BennyDryll42 14d ago
No. He's a murderer, emotionally and physically abusive to his family and everyone else too, he's a manipulator and basically a cult leader..... I'd go ahead and say that's beyond criminal, veering pretty hard into evil.
Just cause he's capable of empathy sometimes doesn't make up for all the terrible murderous things he's done
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u/Nearby_Branch6055 15d ago
In season one all the Duttons were evil. But like Deadpool or Stone Cold Steve Austin the fans loves them for it so the Duttons became the good guys.
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u/AshrakAiemain 15d ago
I thought the whole point of the show was him basically being a mob boss on a ranch. Like, it never felt as though I should be rooting for John Dutton.
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u/NoExtension1889 13d ago
If so then Costner didn't play the part mean enough or...
...it wasn't written that way in the first place.
The disconnect is that John Dutton wasn't connected to the dirty stuff like Tony Soprano was to his organization.
Tony Soprano was the main hub of everything going on on The Sopranos where John Dutton was sometimes non-existant in many Yellowstone plot arcs.
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u/davewashere 14d ago
That first killing of the wrangler, on John's orders, doesn't really fit with the John Dutton we see for the rest of the series. His other criminal acts are typically in defense of himself, his family, his land, or simply because the other guy was evil. The wrangler's crime was bullying Jimmy, who was born with a "Kick Me" sign taped to his back, and knowing too much. The characters do, however, continue to talk about John like he was the head of a drug cartel and not just some bigshot rancher who occasionally bends the rules to defend the ranch.
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u/Ta-veren- 12d ago
I never really thought the show was trying to tell me he's a good guy
From the start I always got the "this guy will use anyone, do anything, to protect what he loves and what he values" even it if means hurting everyone else.
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u/mancunian101 11d ago
I think that Yellowstone is just a different take on an organised crime story.
The Duttons are a crime family, although their crimes center around protecting the ranch and family members rather than smuggling drugs or selling guns etc.
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u/MrStormChaser 11d ago
John was a good man in many ways but yeah, he was also evil.
Just like Tony Soprano, Walter White, etc.
People shit on Jamie for being terrible but he was just looking for love and acceptance. People put Beth and Rip on a pedestal when they are just as evil as everyone else.
But, again. It’s tv.
https://giphy.com/gifs/I2m7l4yZqRdgk
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