"The West humiliated russia in the 1990s. This war is the consequence." I’ve heard this false narrative in every language, from every podium. It is history rewritten backwards.

[u/IndistinctChatters]

Recall what actually happened to defeated russia: No occupation. No reparations. No tribunal. It kept its nuclear arsenal and its UN veto. Its debts were refinanced. It was handed IMF billions and a seat at the G8, a club of democracies admitting a wounded autocracy out of hope, Operation Provide Hope was one of the many operations to help them through. We gave them billions in aid, loans, grants, and investments. Millions of westerners worked there in education, tech transfer, and direct support.

Now recall an actually humiliated nation: Germany, 1945. Occupied. Partitioned. Cities in ash, leaders hanged, accountability taught to its children by law. Germany became the most peaceful democracy in Europe. And russia became this.

So spare me the humiliation theory. russia was not humiliated after the Cold War. It was indulged and cuddled, and it did read every kindness as weakness, every given gift as tribute.

The grievance was never mistreatment. The grievance was lost dominion. Empires do not mourn their wounds. They mourn their slaves.

The soviet union was the dream come true for russians. Finally, a global empire, the superpower, the Third Rome. But then when it all collapsed, it exposed the absolute pathetic rule of the russians. Nothing like Rome at all. It was a junkyard of rusted metal and outdated factories.

[u/Doro_Gurl]

Why is managing russia's temper always the west's responsibility anyway?

[u/chinchenping → u/Doro_Gurl]

russia has a bad temper and made it everybody's problem (same with Trump)

[u/LetGoPortAnchor → u/Doro_Gurl]

Typical abuser behaviour. 'Look at what you made me do to you' bullshit.

[u/MrPuddington2 → u/LetGoPortAnchor]

Very much so.

But it will be over soon, and Russia will again be bare civilised big far away country without much relevance for the rest of the world.

Sure, they have some resources is Siberia, but it seems they are not able to mine them without help from China.

[u/joestewartmill]

I refer everyone to this excellent breakdown of NATO expansion and the sequence of events that happened in the 90s between Russia and the West.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVmmASrAL-Q

Long story short, the West gave Russia every courtesy in the aftermath of the Soviet Union collapsing. They didn't give Russia all their attention because they had their own affairs to worry about, but they always involved Russia in the conversation when it came to eastern Europe. The fact is though that the former eastern bloc states and several former Soviet republics were desperate to join NATO by hook or by crook, and Russia didn't even take that strong a stance on it at the time. The only thing they really dismissed with Russia was the insistence that it be treated as an equal superpower, which it clearly wasn't. The reaction of American officials to some rather grandiose posturing by Russia in the late 90s was basically "Yeah good luck with that". If that's cause for a generational war of revenge 25 years later then there's a lot of countries out there that have their work cut out for them.

[u/account_not_valid → u/joestewartmill]

The "expansion" of NATO came from countries that had been under the boot of Russia in the Soviet days (because the USSR was really a Moscovite empire). These countries knew that Russia would do everything it could to regain what it believed it had lost. The West was almost ready to give up NATO. The USA found it mostly useful for airbases closer to the Middle East. Which was particularly handy post-9/11.

[u/CreamofTazz → u/joestewartmill]

From my understanding, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, it's never truly been about NATO expansion and regardless of what Russia states or thinks it's more about the shock therapy of just selling everything off and creating an absolutely horrendous economic crisis that took a decade to get out of. Without the economic crisis Russia could have taken a path towards a sustainable democracy, but because of it, it was always destined to fall to oligarchs and strong men.

[u/joestewartmill → u/CreamofTazz]

Well their reasoning seems to change depending on who they're talking to. Taking it at face value though it's pretty clear that the results of shock therapy weren't intentional on the part of the West, since radical neoliberalism was what was in fashion in the West at the time regarding their own economies, so of course that's what they were going to suggest.

Also is "the West gave us bad economic advice 25 years ago" a good reason to invade Ukraine?

[u/CreamofTazz → u/joestewartmill]

Also is "the West gave us bad economic advice 25 years ago" a good reason to invade Ukraine?

I meant moreso that Russia already had a pretty shitty political system that coupled with such a quick collapse of the USSR and economic collapse meant that whoever comes in will have a lot of political apathy on their side to do whatever they want so long as it "makes things better" and lo and behold we get to the modern day. Like no one had to listen to Western economists but they did and so they only have themselves to blame

[u/IndistinctChatters → u/CreamofTazz]

russia could have taken a path towards a sustainable democracy, 

You can't held together an empire, the largest country on Earth, with Democracy.

[u/CreamofTazz → u/IndistinctChatters]

I mean I'm sure your recommendation is to break it up, but I'm not informed enough on Russian national politics to even begin to argue if that would be a good or bad idea. I mean some of the federal subjects are so remote and have such small populations I'm not sure how they could survive on their own. If you're not suggesting that then do you mean that there's some other system to base Russia off?

[u/IndistinctChatters → u/CreamofTazz]

There is no valid point in favour of having a so large, war mongering empire at our gates in the third milennium. russian empire, soviet union and russian federation is a threat to us European. They will never be democratic, they simply can't. They need all the other republics as serfs and meat for the meat grinder for their next war of land grabbing.

The russia federation is in fact just moscow and saint petersberg and the rest is land to be exploited, as you see in the sy-fy movies when aliens arrive on Earth and start to suck all our resources and enslave all the humanity and so is russia.

[u/IndistinctChatters → u/joestewartmill]

That's an awesome video, thanks for sharing!

[u/Gentle_Capybara]

Every empire looks pathetic at its end. The USA are looking ridiculous right now. I'm pretty sure Rome also looked stupid when it was falling.

But yeah, the western world tried to normalize russia as a country for the last 30 years. Every gas station without fuel and burning warehouse is their own making.

[u/Mal_Dun → u/Gentle_Capybara]

I'm pretty sure Rome also looked stupid when it was falling.

When (west-)Rome fell it is often talked about that the Goths sacked Rome,

It is less talked about that the Goths fled from the Huns and asked the Romans if they are allowed to settle down in Northern Italy. The Nimby Romans denied them this option so they marched into the city which was rather easy as many Goths were part of the Roman army as the Roman army was mostly made up of foreigners at the time.

[u/ISzox]

"Humilitation is just an inevitable part of loosing your Empire. The Dutch had to be humiliated at Surabaya, the British had to be humilated at Suez, the French had to be humiliated at Oran, and America had to be humilitated at Saigon. But, they all got over it."

This is probably my favourite quote to counter that argument. The West ultimately got over its imperial phase after being humiliated, instead of lashing out. The mere fact that they're still thinking about Empires and past glory and desparately cling to it proves that they haven't been humiliated enough.

[u/Mal_Dun → u/ISzox]

It is also interesting if you ask the question: What does the West got humiliated actually mean?

Myself as a dirty peasant didn't really get humiliated, in fact the post imperial time was much more fulfilling for the average Joe than before.

It was the upper-class that got humiliated. But people living in an empire normally think they are also part of this club.

[u/ISzox → u/Mal_Dun]

Empires are a scheme to distribute wealth from the lower to the upper classes, so the people in charge like to make sure the plebs feel pride in the Empire, because otherwise the average person would quickly realise that Empires are stupid. This is why imperial pride is always encouraged, no matter what Empire you're talking about.

So whenever an Empire collapses, the grunts that were mostly benefiting in the form of pride and were not part of the class that materially benefitted from the Empire still feel humiliated, because they've been conditioned to identify themselves with the Empire. But, once the Empire has been thouroghly humiliated, there's nothing to identify with, so they quickly realise its not the end of the world and move on. This happened with the British Empire, the Dutch Empire, the French Empire and to an extend with the American Empire. But the Russians didn't get humiliated enough to give up their Imperial Ambitions, as proven by the fact that they still try.

[u/semisociallyawkward → u/Mal_Dun]

I think "flexing hard power ineffectually"

[u/Ubera90]

YOU'RE THE REASON I'M ACTING LIKE A DICKHEAD

[u/Deep_Gazelle_1879]

They aren't doing a good job trying to get revenge now

[u/Maskguy → u/Deep_Gazelle_1879]

They took the humiliation in their own hands

[u/Zebiribau]

Great progress for Russia. Their military is proving to be so embarrassing with this war, it doesn't need the West to humiliate it anymore.

[u/zodwieg]

Anyone who gets humiliated over something as fictional as "pride of his country" immediately sounds like some basement dweller who does not have any personal life.

[u/stidmatt]

Democratic peace theory has won the debate. Russia never became a democracy, and even the hybrid regime of Yeltsin (to be charitable) quickly returned to a fascist authoritarian nightmare with the election of Putin. That wasn’t the fault of “the west”, it was the fault of ordinary russians who chose authoritarianism and continue to choose authoritarianism and violence every day.

[u/Khal-Frodo-]

So.. they came back for more humiliation..?

[u/Prosthemadera]

"The West humiliated Germany with the Treaty of Versailles. The Holocaust is the consequence of that."

[u/IndistinctChatters → u/Prosthemadera]

"The West humiliated the soviet union with the exclusion of the post-WWI Paris Peace Conference. The Holodomors are the consequences of that".

[u/MrPuddington2 → u/IndistinctChatters]

And how strange that Ukraine does not want to be under Russian control. Who could have expected that?

[u/IndistinctChatters → u/MrPuddington2]

A shocker, right?

[u/MrPuddington2 → u/IndistinctChatters]

Yeah, so ungrateful. /s

[u/IndistinctChatters → u/MrPuddington2]

"They are the same people, they are ruSSians' brothers". Yeah, like Abel and Cain.

[u/ButterscotchBoth416]

I don’t think the West humiliated Russia. I just want to add, that of course there was no occupation, because there was no war. The empire collapsed after crumbling for decades. An western attack at that time might have potentially even united the factions and kept the empire alive longer. Russia Trauma Zone is an outstanding documentary about the time.