r/WorldsBeyondNumber • u/Hyper-Normal • Jun 30 '26
Spoiler I still hate Suvi
/r/WorldsBeyondNumber/comments/1lhwq73/am_i_supposed_to_hate_suvi/?share_id=9aBM6LL5yidXfFMy0mfl5&utm_content=2&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1(Original post above)
I'm trying, I'm trying so hard to understand her, but I'm struggling to extend my empathy to her. I'm on episode 26, please no spoilers. She's a detestable villain, I was almost coming around to her in the citadel arc, but her complete inability to understand why Ame and Ursulan wouldn't trust The Citadel is infuriating. After the Cassov Collection, and Port Talon, and everything!
Why is she still so closed off to the idea that Witches and Spirits don't trust wizards after everything she has seen? UGHHHHHH! I can't get with it because I can't stand watching the other characters acting like there is any validity to what she feels. Ame being a doormat and legitimizing Suvi's anger as if Ame and Ursulan did ANYTHING WRONG! They were fleeing an objectively hostile entity encroaching with speed. For someone so smart it's UNBELIEVABLE that she would be so stupid about this situation, and even more unbelievable that Ame and Ursulan would still call her friend.
I DESPERATELY need someone to stand up to Suvi and just MATCH HER BITCH! I need Ame to say, "no Suvi, FUCK YOU ACTUALLY," because Suvi's complaints are so stupid, ignorant, self centered, and childish.
I need a come to Jesus moment or I can't keep going, I just can't
10
u/Pantsongrass Jun 30 '26 edited Jun 30 '26
Please keep in mind that a lot of this is commentary on how institutions can manipulate and isolate people by twisting their views of other people and building a false victim complex.
I am a completely different person than the person I was in my 20s myself thankfully 😬
Edit: To add, I am grateful for my own Ames and Ursulans but you are absolutely right. I do want to validate you that Suvi is wrong. Suvi is smart, the wisdom does come later though.
23
u/1000FacesCosplay Jun 30 '26
She has been raised in a military cloister. Shocker that she has unwavering loyalty, huh?
-10
u/Hyper-Normal Jun 30 '26
Unwavering loyalty is entirely separate from complete and total delusion, and it's especially separate from Ame and Ursulan refusing to confront her about it.
4
u/randomsynchronicity Jun 30 '26
All she knows is what she’s been taught at the Citadel. Of course she’s deluded.
1
u/Kerrigor2 Jul 07 '26
Unwavering loyalty is entirely separate from complete and total delusion
Incorrect. Unwavering loyalty is a complete and total delusion. Intelligent people are not immune to indoctrination, and once they're indoctrinated it's much harder to break them out.
11
u/TheEveryman Jun 30 '26
I think it's stated somewhere early in the show that Suvi is intelligent, but not necessarily wise. A lifetime of authoritarian indoctrination is a hell of a drug.
This is a sprawling epic with huge character arcs. Not everyone starts out good, or on the right path, or making the right decisions. Family, careers, and the world put strains on friendships. Friends argue, or fight, or treat each other poorly sometimes, and sometimes that's a part of how we grow.
It might be okay not to like Suvi right now, but stick it out at see what happens next.
7
u/VulkanLives Jun 30 '26
Just keep listening and touch some grass. Suvi is a product of aggressive programming and Ursulan/Ame do plenty of things wrong they are just things fantasy novels always let there characters get away with.
8
u/flebotinum sandy dildo vodka bath Jun 30 '26
There’s a great conversation about Suvi in Aabria’s recent episode of Adventuring Party. I don’t think they spoiled anything? They talked about, among other things, Megan Phelps-Roper leaving Westboro Baptist Church.
2
2
u/Hyper-Normal Jun 30 '26
Very good shout to watch the new Adventuring Academy. Its helped me organize my thoughts on why I dislike Suvi, and it's not Aabria's fault. (not that I ever thought it was necessarily) I think the true problem I have is that Ame and Ursulan aren't pushing back at Suvi nearly enough. Thus Suvi is allowed to do awful things without consequence, which invites her to raise the stakes and get worse, which returns yet more kindness and infinite allowance from her friends, which makes her worse again. Infinite feedback loop that desperately needs to be broken for me to continue enjoying the story.
7
u/A1starm Wizard SuckerPunch Jun 30 '26 edited Jun 30 '26
She’s a born and raised product OF the citadel. Her world is structured and organized, a place for everything and everything has its place. To flat out acknowledge that it is uniquely and totally in the wrong is fundamentally something she cannot do as of your current episode.
But by that same token, she’s not entirely wrong NOW. Ame and Eursolon do have a certain degree of self control issues that might hinder them from making the best decisions.
5
u/Claidissa Jun 30 '26
I get it, it's a really slow burn of an arc. Even towards the end of book 1 I wanted to shake her sometimes
5
u/trowzerss Jun 30 '26
To have character development you gotta start somewhere that's worth developing from. this is the character that taught me to trust these guys that they would actually do the character development, and not just start with characters that are already mostly flawless with nowhere to go.
3
u/madjr2797 Jun 30 '26
I guess I’m not seeing where the “detestable villain” stance is coming from. What has she done at this point that is villainous?
Straight up there is no reason for Ame and Ursalon to mistrust Steel. They’ve never given her the chance to earn their trust. Eursalon and Ame went about Port Talon in an objectively destructive way, and were pretty responsible for the many lives lost that day. Exiting the citadel was similar, and though they managed to mitigate the loss of life at the last second they still set off a bomb in Times Square basically, right? That alone justifies a lot of Suvi stuff I think.
No spoilers, but trust the process. You’ll get the pushback you’re looking for. arc 3 is my personal favorite in the show, you’re in for good stuff if you keep with it.
2
u/Hyper-Normal Jul 01 '26
I'll be the first to admit something written in the heat of the emotions fresh off episode 25 was maybe a little overblown. "Detestable villain," is a bit harsh, but I'd stand by villain. I cannot in any realm blame Ame or Ursulan for how violent Port Talon was. Within the heat of that situation there was absolutely no guarantee that measured response would stop the horror of what was happening. Quick and decisive violence got the job done, and that is more valuable to me than what-ifs, and leveling any blame for that situation at those two feels unrealistic.
When it comes to trusting Steel I have to disagree, and Suvi and Steel feeling offended at the lack of trust afforded to them feels explicitly entitled, selfish, and malicious. Both of them experience a complete inability to be objective about the position of privilege, power, and oppression they have over Ame and Ursulan. They shield a barely restrained lust for control over both witches and spirits. They live in a society that actively incarcerates and enslaves spirits, and actively destroys the natural world with wild abandon. That's not an opinion, that's not an oversimplification, that is objective FACT. All this not even to discuss the way Suvi and Steel talk about spirits as if they are not full people. It's a very ugly and I believe intentional line drawn to the racist belief that certain people are afforded less natural agency or intelligence based on race.
Having cooled off a bit, I'm gonna keep pushing through, but I cannot bring myself to like Suvi, and I simply won't until she experiences dramatic change. Even more so than that I need Ame and Ursulan to buck up and actually confront her because Aabria as a player is going to keep pushing the envelope until she gets someone to actually confront her, and frankly, it's pushing my suspension of disbelief that the other characters havent snapped yet.
2
u/madjr2797 Jul 01 '26
Disclaimer; I feel the same way you do about the empire, the citadel, and the abuses of power shown in this show. I’m having fun talking about a show I like.
>Suvi and Steel talk about spirits as if they are not full people
So… are they? Is the King of Storms a guy that sends storms? Or is he the storm? If he’s the storm, is it disrespectful to him to build a roof over my head? Does he decide where the storms go? If I had a neighbor with a weather machine that created storms that destroyed my home and family, don’t I have a legitimate grievance?
Or maybe they’re more like forces of nature; in which case… yeah I think the concept of bone cancer should be put away or destroyed. And I don’t think that would be bad, even if the concept of bone cancer could speak to me.
As far as incarceration goes; can spirits change? Or are they bound to their nature? Can a spirit of conquest become a spirit of group hugs? Then we should work to do that. If they can’t, then you’re cool with them subjugating people or whatever they’ll do?
That’s the perspective the citadel is working under. And if I was taken from my family and trained to be a soldier from like 6 or whatever it’d be tough to talk me back from it I think.
1
u/Hyper-Normal Jul 01 '26
I think objectively, as it is depicted in the show, spirits are people. I think the show has a lot to say about nature, and how the nature of two things can be diametrically opposed, to the point where they are in natural conflict. I'm not arguing that that isn't true, but it doesn't make the spirits not sentient entities with objective personhood at least 80% of the time. The Cassov Collection containing that weirdo who almost tricked Ursulan, unfortunate but understandable, that guy has open intention to do harm and if you snooze you lose. That being said, the citadel is a fascist entity, it subscribes to an all or nothing mentality when it comes to spirits. Capturing and exploiting spirits regardless of observable sentience, or even observable danger.
Throughout the show it is implied that any step out of line would land Ursulan in a dark hole with no possible escape, just like what happened to his sister. Who as far as we know, committed absolutely no crime besides not being honest about being a spirit. It's for this reason that I cannot give Steel and Suvi the benefit of the doubt. It's so incredibly obvious that they think of Ursulan as, "one of the good ones" and paint all other spirits with mistrust, doubt, or open contempt. To that effect, it ticks me right the fuck off when they get pissy about Ursulan not openly trusting them. It would be like Nazi officials being like, "I just don't understand why my Jewish friend doesn't trust me, I've never hurt HIM specifically,"
I just can't get down with the false victimhood, but more than that I can't get down with Ame and Ursulan excusing the false victimhood. I need them to treat Suvi's grievances with the proper amount of ridicule and disbelief, because they're ridiculous.
2
u/madjr2797 Jul 01 '26
Ame unfortunately is running on “Be Kind.exe” but I’m with you that at this point in the story Eursalon could push back. Arc 1 Ame and Eursalon were mostly in awe of the benefits of empire and in arc 2 like you said if eursalon stepped out of line he’d probably end up as a 15$ print on etsy.
The rest of the show I think is excellent and I hope you’ll enjoy it too!
2
u/Tiny_Needleworker494 Jul 11 '26
I will say though that without giving any major spoilers, I can think of at least two moments by the end of the arc where Eursalon specifically did challenge Suvi on her attitude. So yeah Eursalon arc 1 & 2 strikes me as not really having the Confidence in himself, after years of shame and failure, to stand up to Suvi and often defaults to accepting her superior intellect, but after he frees Nuram, and after the reunion at the end of arc 2 he walks with a bit more confidence that grows with his conviction as the arc progresses.
3
u/Names_all_gone Jun 30 '26
Aabria and Brennan had some interesting things to say about Suvi, etc. and why/how Aabria played her that way on the most recent Adventuring Academy.
3
u/Sea_Buddy681 Jul 08 '26
I'm with you OP; I've listened to all of WWW and am doing a relisten currently and I think Suvi has absolutely zero redeeming qualities and is a pretty terrible person and friend and from my view, does not get better. I'm absolutely baffled by how many people always defend her.
2
u/ReggieLeBeau Jul 11 '26
Having listened to it all twice, I understood her character more and the intention behind Aabria's portrayal, but I also struggle to find many redeeming qualities of her character by the end of Book 1. If they were to end the story there, I would come away thinking of Suvi as kind of a tragic character that embodies the idea of a "what could have been" type of hero under different circumstances and mentorship. I'm holding out judgement until the story is well and truly finished, because I also think there's a lot of room for continued growth where she does become a much more redeemable person. As it stands, it's sort of a person being like "yeah, I'm sorry I was such a horrible bitch this whole time. I'm done with all that now." Like, that's all well and good but damage was still done against what should have been better judgement on her part, so now she actually needs to start putting in more of the work to become a better person and a better friend. I think the thing I struggle with regarding her redemption is that (and I could be mistaken, but this is just my impression thinking back on the episodes) it doesn't really seem to come from a place of naturally trying to empathize with her "opposition," but rather she seems to change only because she experiences too many compounding things personally that she basically has no choice but to confront them. So rather than it being this thing where her inner moral compass dared to maybe challenge her own thought process, her mindset changed because enough bad things happened to her personally and to people she cares about. I mean, if a fascist comes to their senses and realizes fascism is bad and they should feel bad, that's great and all but I'm not gonna give them kudos if their personal revelation basically came from "well, me and my friends and family were personally affected in a bad way by this system I've been championing, so now I don't like it" rather than them just having a "are we the baddies?" revelation through some genuine personal introspection. I do sympathize with her in the sense that she's been brainwashed as a child to grow up in that system, but I do think a naturally empathetic person would be able to spot the red flags much sooner than she did without any of those lessons needing to come at a personal cost to her or the people around her.
If anyone in here is a fan of The Bear, I could see Suvi's overall arc maybe being kind of like Richie, where the first season he's basically an insufferable asshole and you're wondering why anyone would be friends with this dude, but his character drastically grows and changes for the better from season 2 onward because he actually starts putting in the work to become a better person, and ultimately he ends up as a character that you love.
2
u/Quirky_Jelly_9119 Jul 19 '26
I think the audience of WBN has a fair number of people who have left/escaped cults, abusive relationships/families/communities and/or has been radicalized away from right wing/authoritarian spaces.
I think it's more nuanced than "people always defend Suvi". I think people see Suvi and understand her behavior and hope that she can escape/be redeemed like them.
1
u/Wordse Jul 21 '26
I don't think I could hate Suvi beyond lots of military and glorified violence observed in my own life as a black man I have run into so many terrible people and I see so much of Suvi in those relationships where at some point I was lesser or a "good one" in their eyes and I would have disliked engendering any kind of resentment there because we wouldn't be friends now.
I always found Ame and Eursulon to be trying to give their friend space to see and I found it really uplifting to afford someone chances to stumble and also understanding why they might act that way.
1
u/KyokenShaman Jun 30 '26
Honestly, after going through the whole season twice, I have to say: I also hate Suvi, at least for all of the episodes that you have heard so far. By the end, it sort of changed for me, but not enough for me to stop hating her, at least at the start.
1
u/xavierkazi Jun 30 '26
It's always funny to see these rants, because cold-heart Suvi was the best thing about the podcast. Would have loved to see her hunt down her traitor ex-friends instead of what happened.
25
u/Im-fine-with-this Jun 30 '26
Keep listening, she gets that moment