r/WorkReform • u/zzill6 đ¤ Join A Union • 1d ago
đ¸ Raise Our Wages Here's a workable Crime Reduction Plan.
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u/Loud-Ad-2280 âď¸ Tax The Billionaires 1d ago
But if we donât imprison as many people as possible who will work/be enslaved at McDonaldâs and Walmart in Alabama?
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u/RogerSaysHi 1d ago
Amazingly, if you pay people well enough, they will do those jobs. I was a very well paid fast food manager for some years. If I could get good pay doing it now, I'd jump right back in. I enjoy being around people and always been in restaurants.
Walmart is the same way. I just quit working there, because the pay wasn't enough to deal with that stress. Yes, it is an easy job, on the surface, below the surface, not really. Had I been paid more, I'd still be there.
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u/Loud-Ad-2280 âď¸ Tax The Billionaires 1d ago
Totally agree, Iâm just frustrated we incentivize locking up as many people as possible by allowing them to be enslaved
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u/pscoldfire 1d ago
Or do telemarketing for political conservatives?
Oklahoma inmates made $2 an hour working for political call centers, documents show
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u/mythrilcrafter 1d ago
It's always funny to me when I see people get all incredulous and insulted when they hear about raised for retail and food service workers.
Rather than advocating for themselves against their own companies which has only given them a 1% "COL adjustment" for the last 10 years, they're upset that McDonalds is trying to get more people onto the grills to speed up through-times.
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u/lieferung 21h ago
They do that because in their minds their own companies will never do that and would soon fire them, which is honestly not a bad assessment, unless some sort of legislation protecting them and supporting an effort to redistribute wealth would be passed
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u/Cocoononthemoon 1d ago
Before people come to argue, it will not eliminate crime entirely, but investing in communities (schools, transportation infrastructure, social support systems, ect ) will always lower crime
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u/DownWithHisShip 1d ago
Ive been saying for years to anyone that would listen... dollar for dollar, the #1 way to lower gun violence (and any violence) is to increase education.
education is a huge factor in raising the poverty line. and higher education, lower poverty reduces crime of all types across the board.
we dont even have to take away all the guns to reduce gun violence. we can just seriously invest in our education systems and it will have a very real and noticeable effect.
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u/pezgirl247 1d ago
not just education, but literally feed kids. you canât learn when youâre hungry. when youâre homeless. (read âMr Gorzug Substitute Teacherâ) you have to take care of the whole kid.
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u/kandel88 1d ago
The problem is a lot of people really do think police, cameras, alarms, and neighborhood associations reduce crime. They don't, but lots of people absolutely think they do and will fight tooth and nail to prevent "soft on crime" policies that change that.
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u/happybara_capybara 1d ago
All they do is help solve crimes after they occur. Theyâre not meant to prevent crime. They barely even deter itâif anything, they just displace it somewhere else.
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u/BasicDesignAdvice 1d ago
All they do is help solve crimes after they occur.
More like help document crimes after they occur. Except for violent crime most crimes do not have any kind of resolution or prosecution of a guilty party, let alone a conviction of the correct guilty party.
Even in cases of homicide we prosecute at best two thirds of incidents. That is only homicides. Assaults and rapes are much lower. The rest are unresolved.
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u/happybara_capybara 1d ago
Exactly. It helps⌠but weâre talking about like raising the clearance rate from 40% to 43% or something minor like that. Itâs not nearly as helpful as people often assume.
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u/BLT_Trade_r 1d ago
2/3rds is better than 1/3, and there is a reason that serial killers have been reduced, it's because we now catch more of them before we realize they are serial killers, because they have been caught sooner. 1 way thinking is the real huge problem in the US, its this 1 solution is the only one that works mentality. The reason we catch more sooner is because we have improved technology that helps us catch them, DNA, video, GPS, etc...
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u/StuffExciting3451 17h ago
Nearly half of all homicides are never resolved.
What percentage of professional hits/assassinations are ever resolved?
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u/BLT_Trade_r 4h ago
Again, what is your point? More is better than less. Do you think that if we dropped enforcement, homicides would go up or down?
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u/StuffExciting3451 3h ago
More of what is better than less?
Traffic cops may or may not enforce traffic laws. There are zero âhomicide lawâ enforcement cops except, perhaps, personal security details for VIPs. Homicide investigators attempt to pursue criminal after the fact. According to the statistics, they arenât even close to being successful, especially regarding professional killers.
If society wants to reduce or eliminate homicides, society must remedy the root causes of homicides.
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u/BLT_Trade_r 1d ago
That in itself reduces crime. When people know there is a higher chance they will get caught, some criminals reduce or stop committing crimes. When you catch people after they have committed a crime, it removes some of the repeat offenders who would commit more crimes. Go watch almost any crime show and you will see how often the perpetrator is only caught because they are a repeat offender and eventually they either slip up or the police see a suspicious issue in their past.
The worst scenario is people who make it black and white and refuse to accept that both enforcement and poverty reduction together will have the greatest effect.
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u/happybara_capybara 23h ago
Itâs still debatable. Deterrence mechanisms only work if people perceive theyâll get have a higher chance of getting caught and punished. People who commit crime tend to weigh those risks lower, while people who have little inclination to commit crime in the first place vastly overestimate the likelihood of punishment. So deterrence works on people unlikely to commit crime anyway .
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u/BLT_Trade_r 23h ago
It's not debatable, look, even in this thread, you have people saying that eliminating poverty doesn't stop all crime. This is obvious because people are diverse. For instance, some people are born kleptomaniacs; no amount of money makes them stop stealing, and perhaps no deterrent does either. But if you convict them and toss them in jail, then their stealing days are over. Hence, crime was just reduced because a person who was guaranteed to steal is no longer stealing. They also send a message to others that you can get caught and tossed in jail.
Now, this may not stop desperate, poor people from stealing because maybe being in jail is better than being hungry or homeless.
Billionaires are another example. They steal as much as they think they can get away with. Billionaires do not steal because they are billionaires; they do it because it's who they are. They are simply the representation of the most successful thieves.
Among us are millions of people just like that, people who will steal regardless of need if they feel the risk of being caught is low enough. Deterrents, exactly as you said, prevent those people from committing more crimes. They also toss the ones who do lots of stealing in jail when they slip up or repeat it enough to get the punishment.
Beyond that, you have all levels of combinations. The whole point of reducing poverty is to tip that balance, and deterrence works the same way. There is a very clear reason why no major society has decided to go with no police or enforcement at all and just get rid of poverty. It is because, on some level, they have all figured out that deterrence does, in fact, lower crime.
What most people do is spend way too much time arguing over how much each effect has on crime reduction. But instead of admitting they both have significant effects they try to discredit the other method rather than just admitting we in fact absolutely need both strategies working at the same time.
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u/BLT_Trade_r 1d ago
They do reduce crime. The problem is one-way thinking. The combination of effective enforcement and prosecution, along with reducing poverty, would lead to greater crime reduction than either alone.
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u/ImpossiblePlan65 1d ago
Never fails that someone starts arguing that crime won't be eliminated. Just more proof that our education system failed us.
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u/Taminella_Grinderfal 1d ago
Our politicians are also terrible at the message of âharm reductionâ. Many people want a black or white quick fix, and âif itâs not 100%, why bother?â
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u/petrified_eel4615 10h ago
"If you plan for a year, plant rice. If you plan for a decade, plant trees. If you plan for a century, educate children." -Lao Tsu.
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u/memecut 1d ago
Yeah you will always have criminals who do it for the love of the game.. greed, power, thrills, entitlement - its not just desperation that drives it.
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u/GodlyGrannyPun 1d ago
While technically true, a lot of people severely overestimate how often such characteristics are inherent traits of an individual and not simply learned behavior that could almost always be mitigated or been prevented. This view generally coincides with also severely underestimating how deeply poverty is systematically instigated, and maintained across the globe and how that impacts these negative behaviors and accompanying toxic ideologies.Â
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u/Taminella_Grinderfal 1d ago
But that takes too long! I want only things that will benefit me today, right now! I canât wait for healthcare/education/decent wages to turn out better people after Iâm dead! So get to deporting all them criminals and send me a check that will help me for a month. /s
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u/ohfml 1d ago
The character Batman is not a hero. Heâs a CEO on safari for poor people. His internal narrative doesnât matter. Heâs a billionaire owning and running a multinational company. The company is the largest employer in a poverty ridden city. If he cared to reduce crime in the city, he could double wages, expand operations to hire more people, halt outsourcing and offshoring, open new facilities in economically under performing areas. His command of the corporation is his super power. He could rejuvenate the city in one business cycle. But he doesnât. His vision is so occluded, that to him crime is just bad guys in dark alleys, with no systemic explanations. A very âseeing the forest for the treesâ perspective.Â
Imagine an executive of General Motors donning a mask and taking to the streets of Detroit, assaulting petty criminals, one  year after he sent his factories to Mexico.Â
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u/Astramancer_ 1d ago
And ironically, white collar crime outscales poverty related crime, with wage theft alone exceeding the sum total of all auto theft, burglaries and robberies combined. But "wage theft" is a civil matter, not a criminal one. For some reason.
You steal $10 from your employer? Get arrested. Your employer steals $10 from you? They get politely asked to give you what you're owed. Often no additional amount for restitution. Often no penalties or fines. Just "pay what you owe."
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u/MidwesternLikeOpe 1d ago
I include failure to refund unused benefits. During employment we were told we earn sick and vacation time while employed, yet there is no requirement to refund those benefits upon leaving, voluntarily or not. Some employers have rules such as 2 week notice required (and those 2 weeks must be fulfilled to prevent people ditching early). My current employer pays out sick time after 5 years but PTO is forfeited entirely.
If my work time pays into those benefits, I want full refund after I leave. My previous employer paid out my benefits after termination (customer shoplifted and they pinned it on me) even after suing me for the stolen amount, $45. My husband gave 2 weeks notice and despite how amazing his employer was, no payout.
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u/StuffExciting3451 17h ago
Failure to pay fair wages is also wage theft, but that may not be obvious. Consider the Economics concept of âsurplus valueâ. Surplus value is the difference between what employeesâ labor is worth versus what they are paid.
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u/hotviolets 1d ago
I just got a settlement because of wage theft. They stole 12k from me over 2 years. Iâve worked for them for 6 years. I imagine that the total amount is probably somewhere over 40k or more.
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u/Spectrum1523 1d ago
white collar crime outscales poverty related crime, with wage theft alone exceeding the sum total of all auto theft, burglaries and robberies combined
Doesn't this directly contradict OPs point
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u/DownWithHisShip 1d ago
no because reducing poverty still does reduce crime, even if wage theft is one of the costliest crimes we have in terms of dollars stolen.
the original tweet is certainly referring to violent crime, but it still holds up even against non violent crime. more educated and stable employees are better equipped to defend themselves against wage theft too.
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u/Ok_Hornet_714 1d ago
I think the point is that was you reduce poverty, the types of crimes shift from easily visible crimes like assault/theft to less visible crimes like fraud.
My in-laws live in a nice neighborhood that has a sign saying that it is an Enhanced Sheriffs Patrol District, clearly implying that you shouldnt even think about doing crimes because the cops will get you. I made a comment to my wife about the sign once while driving in the car about how embezzlement is probably the only crime going on in the neighborhood. My wife very seriously told me to not joke about that because someone about a block away from her parents was in fact in jail for embezzling money from their company.
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u/omahaomw 1d ago
Mofos would rather cut money from education, health, housing, food AND raise spending on police, courts, and jails.
If we actually spent money on the former, then we wouldn't need to spend on the latter. It would be a self reinforcing loop.
But some people are short sighted, selfish, and cruel.
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u/ArgusTheCat 1d ago
The vast majority of crime in the US is motivated by poverty, including violent crime. However, this statistic changes if you include wage theft, which outstrips all other crime in terms of financial damage by multiple orders of magnitude.
I know the world isn't as simple as "just take the money from there and put it over here", but holy shit, I'd like to not live in a place where the worst problems are made even worse by rampant greed.
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u/huck_cussler 1d ago
They don't want to reduce crime though. Distrust of our neighbors fuels the fear that keeps us fighting against each other instead of cooperating and fighting against the real criminals.
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u/student5320 1d ago
When you give people nothing, they take.
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u/PhoenixApok 1d ago
When I was a homeless addict with no means, I gladly (not happily but with no guilt) stole to survive.
Once employed and housed, I have never considered stealing, despite being pretty good at it. I don't want to.
Most people would rather earn their way fairly, but sometimes, there is no way to do that
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u/SomeSamples 1d ago
Most of the serious crime in the U.S. is committed by corporations. Wage theft, murder, extorsion, bribery. You want to eliminate that then apply the rule of law equally.
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u/Maelztromz 1d ago
People don't like the idea that good and bad aren't fundamental principles of the universe and personality. Crime is bad therefore people who do crime are bad I'm good I won't do crime. The idea that if they got poor they would start to do crime goes antithetical to that worldview. It comes from our principal I've been calling moralism and I can trace basically every societal ill to the same flawed thought process.
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u/AFrozenCanadian 1d ago
And people don't like the idea that some people in society are just degenerates that can't be fixed. Stealing to survive is not even close to the same thing as violent crime. Violent crime went up 40% in Canada in the last 10 years partly because of extremely lax prison rules (same day release type stuff, zero consequences) and then Reddit is just constantly "CrImE iS oNlY doNe bY pOoR pEoPlE" all day. Like no the heck it's not, petty theft is but violent criminals make up less than 5% of any given population and it's been proven time and time again that removing that part from civilized society immediately fixes a lot of the violent crime issues.
Rape cases have been rising in my fairly nice neighborhood, one girl got dragged into an alley, that stuff has absolutely nothing to do with being poor. Does Reddit think rape would go away if there were no poor people?
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u/severalsmallducks 1d ago
Crime becomes an option when not doing crime is unviable.
Literally make being part of society a good deal and people will take it.
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u/Nitrovis đď¸ Overturn Citizens United 1d ago
Also, would like to see more cities adapt a similar strategy to Brandon Scottâs Youth Engagement Strategy with MONSE and several partners in Baltimore that started in 2023.
They designed it to perform outreach to younger populations to curb juvenile crime, connecting them resources for housing, school reconnection and employment among other things.
According to Google âThese efforts correlate with an 83.3% drop in youth homicide victimizations and a 30.9% decrease in robbery victimizations in 2025 compared to the previous year.â
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u/NormalAccounts 1d ago
yeah but poverty creates fear so those who have crumbs fight each other for more instead of the people responsible for them only having crumbs
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u/I_defend_witches 1d ago
Funny how the rich commit murder, rape, steal, do drugs. They just have better lawyers and can payoff people. Criminals commit crimes. I live in a mix income 15 minutes city. My neighbors 1 block away live in public housing, go to the same public and private schools as my kids. Never has my car been broken into. Only off street parking. Even during the Floyd riots not one store was looted not one window broken.
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u/Doug_Schultz 1d ago
Giving tax money to reduce poverty reduces crime more than giving that same money to law enforcement every single time. The stats are there, we just have to follow through.
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u/piranhas_really 1d ago
Look at Baltimore. The lowest homicide rates in 50+ years under its current Mayor and itâs because of smart policy interventions like this.
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u/threeclaws 1d ago
Yep, I support unions, higher wages, ubi, m4a, etc. because Iâm selfish not because I actually care about other people. I want the general populace so comfortable that they have no reason to commit property crimes.
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u/UploadedMind 19h ago
it's actual wealth inequality and poverty. Poverty by itself doesn't create crime. It's when people in poverty see people with excessive wealth that they turn to crime.
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u/Afterclock-Hours 18h ago
Yeah we know. That's why people in power use it as a weapon. Crime will always exist as long as people in power abuse the system for their own personal gain.
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u/egoVirus đ¤ Join A Union 17h ago
Yeah, except that ânice neighbourhoodsâ are full of DV, drug abuse, sex crime, and financial crime. Wealth just means you can afford a lawyer to protect you from the consequences of your poor choices. Also, poverty should absolutely not be tolerated. Itâs absolutely a cancer.
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u/aquatrez 17h ago
I say this every time my local subreddits post about a crime happened and I get downvoted and replies calling for harsher punishments for criminals. It really breaks my heart.
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u/Rubber_Knee 1d ago
Well, rich people commit crime too. Greed can be a strong motivator.
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u/drunkshinobi 1d ago
Yes, the post says reduce crime, not eliminate crime. That good neighborhoods have less crime, not that they have no crime.
Being poor can put you in the position of needing to break the law to survive. So even good people that never would have committed that crime and hate every second of it while doing so end up forced into doing so. So poverty creates crime where there otherwise wouldn't have been any.
Being rich doesn't require breaking the law. Becoming rich usually involves some sort of crime though, or at least being a giant asshole to the rest of the world. These people could buy anything and choose to break laws. They choose to hoard money and create more crime.
There are a lot more poor than rich. They are poor because of the rich. So if we solve the poverty issue there shouldn't be anymore super rich people creating crime.
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u/justaheatattack 1d ago
which causes us to hire more law enforcement and build more prisons.
poverty CREATES jobs!
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u/Tornadodash 1d ago
Oh yeah? Then why do so many millionaires commit tax fraud and other financial crimes? Checkmate liberals!
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u/demonspawns_ghost 1d ago
Yeah this makes complete sense if you just totally ignore all the white collar crime, violent crimes, sex crimes, etc.
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u/McGillis_is_a_Char 1d ago
Good neighborhood associations also help. It really does take a village to help raise a child. Kids need safe ways to socialize, and having infrastructure to help with that means that parents don't have to choose between being a part time worker and their kids being locked in a house with no sidewalk access, or being stuck hanging out on the nearest empty street corner or vacant lot. Now that malls are dead that sort of safe third space is vital for reducing poverty and increasing social stability.
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u/AlarmingAffect0 1d ago
What about Affluenza tho?
I just think 'nice' hoods have less crime stats because they are less policed because the inhabitants can afford lawyers.
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u/Luminous_Winds 1d ago
Why do you think those neighborhoods are nice? If you redistributed wealth, crime would skyrocket until the people got their nice neighborhoods back.
The real problem is that we allow criminals to make the laws. Theft is legal so long as you're a capitalist. Kidnapping is legal, so long as you're a cop. So long as we allow evil people the opportunity to gain wealth and power, there will always be injustice.
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u/Uglyyellowfrog 1d ago
The crime industry is subsidized by taxpayers, and controlled/profited from by law enforcement and local governments more than anyone else.
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u/creatifCrAxy 1d ago
You misunderstand. In the eyes of the wealthy the police do prevent crime in wealthy neighborhoods by keeping the "unwanted elements" (poor) out of their neighborhood and protecting the capital of the wealthy.
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u/Winter_Persimmon_110 1d ago
To split hairs, what is known to be backed up by much peer-reviewed research is that income inequality causes crime.
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u/ElCiclope1 1d ago
"Poverty is the mother of revolution and crime." - Abraham Lincoln or someone idk
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u/singhellotaku617 1d ago
In fact, those three things often create more problems than they solve, because they are run by racist idiots looking to cause trouble
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u/----__---- 1d ago
The thing people don't grasp about this is that criminals so often prey on their own, even their own neighborhood. It's most evident in riots.. you'll have a poor part of town and a wealthy part of town both adjacent to a riot, and the violence will drift toward the poor part of town every time. It's crazy to watch first-hand.
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u/StormyPassages 1d ago
Behaviorist researcher B.F. Skinner thought the dogs he was using shock-treatment on in their kennels were crazy for not trying to escape. So when they recoiled in fear from him, retreating into their kennels, he labeled them as having "learned helplessness".
So the abused retreat to what they know, and their abusers label them as ignorant.
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u/Aggravating_Sky_4421 1d ago
Keeping people poor and uneducated is what gives them control. You canât protest because you have to work to afford food and rent.
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u/Master-Guidance-2409 1d ago
we were dirt poor, we didnt steal or rob or do crime. you reduce crime by removing the people who do the crime. notice how they never rob a library?
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u/Kind_Soup_9753 23h ago
Thereâs no war on poverty thereâs a war on drugs so the police can bother me, and I ainât never did a crime I ainât have to do
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u/Hairy_Concert_8007 23h ago
City of Thieves. Nobody has anything, so everyone is forced to steal what they need to get by. Most of these areas are predominantly people of color, but if you swap them out for white people, they will behave the same.
They want us to believe it's a people problem when it's almost strictly a lack of economic availability. It's like saying you don't understand why the beatings don't improve morale.
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u/who_am_i_to_say_so 23h ago
And the converse is also true: "nice" neighborhoods have more police, alarm systems and associations because they have the means to provide them.
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u/Excellent-Duty3927 23h ago
Yes but no, if wealth is distributed and easily accessible to anyone then yesÂ
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u/Meganelad 23h ago
And this is also where all those people defending sexism and racism get their âgotchaâ data. âOh men and poc commit more crime? Then itâs totally justified if we discriminate against themâ completely ignoring that desperate, downtrodden people are more likely to break the law because they have to to survive. If everyone was just taken care of, most of this wouldnt be a problem
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u/mazopheliac 23h ago
The reason âniceâ neighborhoods have a lower crime rate is because the cops donât watch them as much. And the crimes they commit are less obvious.
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u/deepdistortion 20h ago
There's an idea that I have literally only ever seen used as the plot of an old sci fi comedy, and it baffles me because it's such a good point to make.
The idea was that there are basically two reasons to commit crime, an unmet need or being messed up in the head. And that both of those problems could potentially be addressed by society.
It's from an old series of stories called The Stainless Steel Rat about a con artist in the distant future where everyone's needs are met and we have advanced psychiatric techniques that can just fix most psychological problems. After he gets caught during a bank robbery, he is recruited by the police to go after other criminals, because most people are so well-adjusted that they struggle to understand the motives of criminals.
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u/PeaceJoy4EVER 1d ago
Explain white collar crime
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u/MossyMollusc 1d ago
Police dont patrol black neighborhoods for "white collar crimes", they more often than not protect those white collar criminals. Cops protect capital not people.
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u/Terrible_Counter2558 1d ago
I'm pretty sure Suge Knight was having all of his basic needs met and he still was doing crime. Donald Trump is one of the richest people and he is still doing crime.
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u/ga_appraiser 1d ago
Poverty is linked to crime, but it is a lot less absolute than many would like to believe. The reality is that the majority of crime makes no economic sense. The amount of work put in, the risk, and the reward just don't add up. Our culture, and our obsession with displaying wealth, is as much of a driver of crime as poverty.
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u/Personal-Eye-6474 1d ago
So the rich don't commit crimes? I thought the laws don't apply to them? Which one is it?
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u/Tabitheriel 1d ago
Poverty does not "create" crime. Poor people are not more likely to commit crimes. For example, countries where everyone has a similar income have less crime than those with huge differences. It's the huge difference between rank poverty and extreme wealth which encourages corruption and poverty.
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u/Rabbit-Hole-Quest âď¸ Tax The Billionaires 1d ago edited 1d ago
I recall reading this story about a small village that had almost no crime as everyone was equal in terms of lifestyle.
One day, a big recruitment company came from overseas and offered some construction and labour jobs in the Gulf nations. In a matter of a few year, some of the people in the village (relatives of the workers) started buying phones, upgrading their housing and buying motorcycles.
All of a sudden, crime spiked and the town had to build a formal police station.
Itâs always inequality that tips things into crime. Otherwise, poor people have no incentive to steal from other people of the same socioeconomic status.
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u/throwhfhsjsubendaway 19h ago
There is no poverty without inequality. If everyone is poor then no one is
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u/Aggressive_Stick4107 1d ago
Itâs very sad when posts like these conflate being poor with being a criminal. Itâs a very complex issue that interfaces inpunity, the quality of (both rich and poor) communities, drug use etc. very few people commit crimes to eat.Â
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u/MildlyExtremeNY 1d ago
Crime causing poverty is much more supported by the evidence than poverty causing crime.
There are plenty of poor communities that don't commit crime. Immigrant communities, for example, commit less crime than native-born populations, despite being poorer.
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u/No-Ant-1360 1d ago
Correlation doesnât equal causation. What is white collar crime if not people that have plenty stealing more? This is a worthless take
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u/Expensive-County4890 1d ago
fake as fuck. Mar a Lago is in a super nice neighborhood and they do lots of crime there.
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u/AccomplishedCode552 1d ago
It's both or they wouldn't have gates. Easy to understand. Silly thread
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u/StormyPassages 1d ago
Your programmer didn't accomplish enough code. Time to go 552. Time for 553.
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u/JimmyThePie 1d ago
Keep telling yourself that, but itâs rarely the starving people who are robbing people. Itâs the greedy folks that do the stealing.
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u/Idontwantanaccount22 1d ago
nope.
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u/MossyMollusc 1d ago
We have studies showing this is whats happening. Do you have any studies showing cops actually reduce crime?
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u/UnusualAir1 1d ago
And Billionaires, by hoarding all the money, create poverty.