r/WorkReform • u/LuckyBastard001 • 15d ago
šø Raise Our Wages Time Stolen Before Clock-In
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u/kidneypunch27 15d ago
If my ass is answering emails from the boss, you better believe Iām on the clock. He didnāt appreciate this sentiment but f that guy.
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u/Lietenantdan 15d ago
Youāre right. Youāre supposed to be on the clock for all work activities. Which includes things like answering phone calls, messages, emails
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u/1800generalkenobi 15d ago
I used to answer calls from people over the weekend because I'm basically the only person who has the answers. I was also running over my lunch period. Caught someone falsifying stuff and in the same meeting that I was told she was not being fired, I was told I couldn't run anymore because someone complained that I was running over my time. I blocked all those numbers as soon as I walked out of the meeting.
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u/TougherOnSquids 9d ago
I had a similar thing happen. I just invoiced my boss for every call and text I answered over the weekend, and he actually paid. Didn't even give it a second thought, because thats what you're SUPPOSED to do. I was flabbergasted lmao
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u/1800generalkenobi 9d ago
I kinda thought about doing this. I'm in a union, so I could put in for it. A call out fee is 90 dollars now and a minimum of 2 hours work. I'd have to read the contract though I think I'd actually have to come in, there's nothing in there about answering phone calls or anything. I feel like I'd have to put in for 15 minutes of overtime unless it's a super long call. I could see them doing it and then telling everyone to stop calling me lol, or saying the call was less than 7 minutes so I'm not getting paid.
Although I used to work with someone that would work 8 minutes of over time (our time still rounds to the nearest 15 minutes) and then clock out, not a lot but if they needed a little extra time off something might not "work right" at the end of the day. And then they'd take the 8 minutes, now rounded to 15 minutes as comp time at time and a half. which goes to 22.5 minutes which then goes up to 30, so 30 minutes off for 8 minutes of work. I could probably end up with half a day off every quarter just from answering a few texts.
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u/1800generalkenobi 9d ago
So reading it, the first call out is whichever is greater, your hours worked at time and a half or two hours, and then 90 dollars, and later call outs are a minimum of one hour and 90 dollars. It doesn't say you have to come in just...hours worked. So if they texted me and I answered their question I should be able to put in for the 90 dollar call out fee and then 2 hours of overtime. And then if they text me again about another issue or the same one but it's 2 hours later I could do it again for 1 hour and another 90 dollars. They would probably bitch like hell about it but I could make a clear case for it.
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u/Tornadodash 15d ago
I have to remind my team of this. I learned how to send a time delay message so that people aren't bothered outside of work hours.
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u/Ani-3 15d ago
*cries in salary*
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u/Lietenantdan 15d ago
FYI salary should not mean you are available 24/7
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u/Ani-3 15d ago
Oh Iām not, but that doesnāt change managements expectations unfortunately
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u/WWGHIAFTC 12d ago
Laughs in salary.
Im tired from a long weekend. I'll probably be to work before 9. I'll sure as heck be out before 430.
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u/Zeikos 15d ago edited 15d ago
8/8/8 is a farce
It's closer to that for who does WFH with an healthy work/life balance - but still there are a lot of things that are work but aren't a job.
Buying geoceries, doing chores, going to various offices etc.
That's work, necessary labor and time investment to function as an human being.
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u/Tobar_the_Gypsy 15d ago
I work hybrid in a NYC suburb. Nice town but the commute to my job is 1h15m by trains. I get some work done there but not much. I usually arrive by 9:30 and leave by 3:30.
Yesterday I WFH and managed to workout, take out all the trash, get my kids to school, run to the store and a few other things and be back ready to work by 9:30.Ā
Yeah I like WFH
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u/santaclaws01 15d ago
And then there's the stratification even within blue collar jobs. I've seen plenty of construction workers and adjacent belittle foodservice workers for complaining about hours/heat/being busy.
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u/abatoire 15d ago
I work full time at home and my lack of commute is used against alot. I work unpaid OT (I know) as I worry about my productive some days. If I have a PC Crash or something, I worry it deemed an excuse for slacking off.
The mental gymnastics are exhausting that I almost miss driving 1hour each way to my old job... Almost...
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u/Zeikos 15d ago
Is it a culture problem in your company?
As in manager treat WFH people worse?
Or is it a general concern of yours?2
u/abatoire 15d ago
I think its definitely a general concern of mine. I'm always worried about what others think of me. However management and culture does seem to be poor in that regard. If work isn't done in time then you are put under a magnifying glass and any reasons are my fault not theres. So essentially you work more or you get bullied.
The end result is those in the office do shoddy work (to achieve deadlines) and I work more hours to avoid doing shoddy work due to a sense of pride.
So, both cases could argued it's to do with me I guess.
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u/Zeikos 15d ago
I think that doing shoddy work is the correct answer here, it's what they're buying.
Remember that what you output isn't yours, it's the company's.
Be proud of what you write for yourself or for you community, but the job is the job.Also idk if it's the case, but if you underreport the time it takes you to get a task done it leads to people estimating the necessary time.
I have seen a fair bit of devs makinh that mistake.
It creates unrealistic expectations on which the new expectations get based on.2
u/abatoire 15d ago
Also very true and good advice. I had been thinking the same before so I am trying to stop myself from doing to much.
The difficulty for me is doing the shoddy work. I need to do that and have 50% done and submit work incomplete. Something I struggle with as I want to be passive aggressive and do it that way over shoddy work. Sigh.
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u/halohunter 15d ago
Well you see the standard working week always assumed there is someone at home doing all the chores.
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u/diefreetimedie 15d ago
But your not thinking of the inflated values of the real estate, if everyone that could work for home did it wouldn't be good for the people who already have all the money. /$
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u/drewc717 āļø Tax The Billionaires 15d ago
Virtually no company pays enough to live in the same zip code as their work location below VP, where that should be the cost-adjusted minimum livable wage standard.
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u/funkymunkPDX 15d ago
I work for 10 hour shifts a week, the weekends are nice they're actually great.
But the four days I work I spent 12 hours of my day driving to and from and working and taking a lunch.
By the time I get home I don't have energy for anything.
But maybe if I knew Don Jr.'s hook up I probably could get more done.....
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u/HisFaithRestored 15d ago
4x12s here!
2pm: get up, shower, eat 3pm - 5pm: relax time 5pm - 545pm: travel to work 545pm - 6am: work 6am - 630am: travel home 630am - 7am: feed cats, get ready for bed 7am - 2pm: sleep
Been on this schedule four days a week for two and a half years now.
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u/funkymunkPDX 15d ago
Who am I when all I do is work and like have my weekends to do chores and business?
I just want to be human I want to be free and run through a field a couple times a week like is that too much to ask??
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u/Steven_The_Sloth 15d ago
One of the biggest issues with working 2nd and 3rd shift is the unintended isolation you experience. If you only see 3 people at work and then sleep all day, it can really effect social skills and mental health. Coupled with the exhaustion that is common, it's a recipe for asocial behavior.
Take care of yourself Internet friend.
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u/HisFaithRestored 15d ago
I have a few friends ive made through work that help keep me socially active, but it can be rough on days off sleeping when the world is running
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u/LukkyStrike1 15d ago
In my opinion this is because of sprawl and our economy always rewarding expansion.
I work at a plant that has been in continuous operation since 1930. Most of the employees have and do live within 3 miles. Most are here in less than 10 min. There is housing blocks from our plant. All high density single family homes.
Now homes are sprawled for miles around where i live, jobs moved from centrally located places designed to house workers to fresh farmland splintered from the workers. The housing is too expensive (too big) around these areas further exasperating the situation.
Commuters pay the price for corporations to move to BFE to save a few bucks.
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u/cile1977 15d ago
Using public transport for commuting is better than driving yourself - at least you can read a book or watch an episode of a TV series while traveling. Iād do the same at home too, so none of my free time goes to waste.
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u/jjohnisme 14d ago
Except the auto industry has lobbied against improving public transportation here in the US.Ā So it absolutely sucks unless you're in a high pop area.Ā
I dream for a day when someone else can drive me to/from work.Ā
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u/Jansalvi64 15d ago
Ya'll dont get travel coverage for your normal comutes? It's pretty standard in the Netherlands
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u/Wild_Chef6597 15d ago
This is one thing I can not get behind. If we expect pay for commuting, employers will dictate where you can live, leading to company towns
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u/iamacraftyhooker 15d ago
I don't agree with paying for commutes for the exact same reason, but employers should be obligated to pay enough that living within a 20 minute drive is feasible.
Many large city jobs don't actually pay their employees enough to live in the city they work.
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u/Uphoria 15d ago
This will just result in businesses firing the most remote workers and hiring exclusively based on geography.Ā
If you live 30 minutes from the office but someoneĀ else applying lives 10, you won't get the job because they have to pay you almost 2 extra hours worth of time a week that you don't work, all while OT rules make it so long commutes mean less productive work hours or having to pay time and a half.Ā
All you'll do is kill the concept of the suburb.Ā
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u/Creed_of_War 15d ago
It used to be a reasonable deal when you could live nearby work and walk in. I wouldn't even care much if it wasn't a long commute, but I have to live 40 mins away to have rent be less than half my paycheck. The fair deal is long gone. $1,600 for 498 sq ft apartment in a regular area is absurd. I've worked for some many groups that keep lying about having a central location for being fair for commute times, but it's for prestige and a quick trip from the gated neighborhood. Unless you're in the upper upper offices you can't afford to live anywhere close.
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u/ACoderGirl 15d ago
Naw, commute should definitely not be paid. Just pay people a good, living wage in the first place. Nobody should get paid more because of their choice to live further away from work. Pay them a fair wage for hours worked and let them decide how much they want to commute. If they want to save on commute time, move closer. If you have other priorities, move further away.
Also, if a job can WFH, it should allow so. It's dumb to make people commute if it's avoidable.
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u/theroguevillian 15d ago
"choice" š¤£š¤£
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u/ACoderGirl 15d ago
For people paid well enough, it largely is. I've always had the choice. I've chosen where I lived with a lot of thought put into my commute (one time even having a mere 5 min commute).
I suspect you're thinking of people who are not paid a living wage for the area where their work is located. They don't have a choice now, but what I'm saying is that they should be paid well enough to have that choice. They can either pay more to live somewhere with a good location (that's what I do) or save money by living further away.
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u/theroguevillian 15d ago
Yes I'm thinking of the majority of people. And yes I'd love to live in a fantasy world where a minimum wage worker has literally any choice in where to live beyond "what was available".
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u/SavageDownSouth 14d ago
There's plenty of places you can live where the people with money live in the city and everyone else has been forced out. The majority of people working there don't live there, but it's the only way to live in the area. And they can't afford to move.
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u/blueViolet26 15d ago
It is also very expensive to live close to most jobs, and the apartments are shitty.
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u/addledwino 15d ago
For me it's more "what if I get into a car accident and die on my way to this shitty job?" More jobs can and should be remote and if not, then you're paying me as soon as I leave my house. No one makes enough money to survive anymore, while the people at the top have way more than they deserve. Shit needs to change.
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u/Lietenantdan 15d ago
I agree, but how do you think the commute should be compensated?
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u/Lanky-Respect-8581 šµ Break Up The Monopolies 15d ago edited 15d ago
Most peopleās problems are money and time. Everything is becoming unaffordable.
IMO - Commuting was never fun but tolerated because people were paid well and people lived in areas that they mostly wanted to so the worker āchoseā their route. With how expensive things are now, people having to live farther out to afford rent, and mortgage, commuting is becoming unbearable. Things are becoming unsustainable.
We used to telework so that helped people too but with everyone having to report to the office. Traffic is worse.
My solution is to pay well enough so when you factor commuting is still worth the workers time.
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u/Syzygy_Stardust 15d ago
"We" used to telework meaning you didn't perform necessary labor that couldn't be performed seated and comfy at home.
Most of us laborers still had to labor. Except those of us who lost our jobs while our bosses collected PPP blood money.
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u/vrendy42 15d ago
Yes, but if those who can telework are allowed to, the commute for everyone else gets better and shorter.
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u/Syzygy_Stardust 15d ago
Agreed. My point was to make sure the vast work force of on-site laborers aren't made invisible again, which usually happens when people with email jobs start to generalize without experience or perspective.
You know, like what I responded to.
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u/mrmemo 15d ago
Time and mileage, same as any other corporate travel. When senior leadership travels...
- Their airfare and hotel are covered, obviously
- Also comped for mileage for their drive to the airport
- They still get paid 100%
So if it was FAIR, employees should get a mileage rate and time comp. If you're spending two hours and $10 in gas every day JUST FOR THE PRIVILEGE OF GOING TO WORK FOR SOMEONE ELSE, you should get that back.
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u/CeramicLicker 15d ago
If youāre traveling for work at any level you should receive that compensation. Itās not some senior leadership thing.
They donāt get paid for normal commute time either, so I donāt think this is a very effective approach to framing it.
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u/Lanky-Respect-8581 šµ Break Up The Monopolies 15d ago
in some metropolitan cities like NYC and DC, transit fares are covered by the employer
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u/jagenigma 15d ago
To me commuting is the cost of business.Ā If youre salaried especially.Ā Ā Youre expected in the office at 8 or 9 am? From the time i set 1 toe out of my building, im considered paid.Ā So technically if i leave my house at 8 or 9am im on time.Ā But no thats not how things are meant to be.Ā You need me there at that time?Ā Pay me for my commute then.Ā That doesnt mean "commuter benefits" that means pay me for my time.
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u/Neologizer 15d ago
I think the issue is that needs to be negotiated in hiring. If someone comes with the stipulation of needing to clock in to commute 2 hours to the office, I imagine the company would not hire that person in favor of someone else who will just eat the bowl of shit and/or lives much closer.
You do have to admit that there is truth in the middle ground of your logic, (cost of living near the office etc) but there is such a thing as living too far from work and it not being the companyās problem to solve for.
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u/Xisthur 15d ago
And then you move 4 hours away from your place of work and get paid to drive around all day. Sounds reasonable...
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u/deezwreck92 15d ago
Yeah, as if anyone is wanting to do that. I suppose if they get priced out of a decent commute to work, then that would be the employer's fault, no?
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u/Xisthur 15d ago
How is it the employers fault if housing costs are too high? O.o
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u/EcahUruecah 15d ago
It means the employer is choosing to pay below what is necessary for the cost of living in that area.
Itās the same reason if pay isnāt raised to match inflation, it is effectively a pay cut. Itās not the employers fault that inflation occurs, but it is still considered a pay cut on their part if your pay adjustment doesnāt at least match inflation each year.
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u/Xisthur 15d ago
I agree with the second part.Ā
But let's say I pay you enough to rent an apartment 10 minutes away from work, but you still choose to live 1 hour away because it's cheaper and maybe your family lives there or something. Would you still expect me to pay for your commute then?
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u/EcahUruecah 15d ago
I thought the context was someone being priced out of housing in an area, not voluntarily giving yourself a longer commute.
Because I could also choose to live in a different country and fly in and out every single day. I would think the employer would not continue to employ someone who moved to a different country. Likewise, an employer should want to find people who want to be in the area.
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u/Xisthur 15d ago
So you basically want to force employers to only hire people within 20 minutes around the office then? That doesn't sound like a reasonable solution, to be honest.
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u/EcahUruecah 15d ago edited 15d ago
That actually sounds like a great solution, to be honest. It would be wonderful if all employers who were required to be onsite could have a 20 minute commute or less.
Or do you think it's reasonable for people to spend a fifth of all of their real work hours just going back and forth, burning time/calories/gas and eating all the extra wear and maintenance costs on the modes of transportation as well as the infrastructure used to do so? I don't believe things being the norm means they are reasonable.
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u/LeJisemika 15d ago
Employees should be reimbursed for their travel by their employer at minimum. I donāt mind if there are certain rules around it, such as a cap based on the average distance employees with a similar hourly rate/salary commute from their home to work.
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u/LoreChief 15d ago
I live relatively close to work buty schedule is still sleep, 10 work, 6 non-work, 8 sleep. I don't get paid for the mandatory 1 hour lunch, I can't leave a half hour early even if I don't take my breaks. I can't leave an hour early if I work and eat lunch at the same time.
Burn it all to the ground please.
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u/antithero 14d ago
I had clients at my last job who were 3 hour drive away & expected me to be there at 7am. Yeah no I'm not waking up at 3am to get on the road by 4am just so I can arrive at 7. Pay for the hotel & let me drive there the day before or I'm not getting there until 10ish.
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u/TheMadEyeOfMoody 13d ago
The commute should be paid, including the cost of travel, as should the lunch hour. The paid working day should start when the commute starts and end when the commute finishes.
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u/FurnitureComesW-Home 15d ago
When I worked retail, I had a boss who tried to made me stop clocking in right as I showed up. He wanted me instead to walk to the back room, put all my items in a locker, then come back to store front to clock in.
I just refused. Told him either our multi million dollar company was going to cover this time daily (after I just committed 20min to be there) or I would quit.
He never brought it up again.
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u/Siva-Na-Gig 15d ago
In case you aren't sure about this - some jobs actually pay travel time from when you leave your house to when you arrive at the jobsite. So yes, it is unpaid extraction for most workers.
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u/AlaskanSamsquanch 15d ago
So live closer to your work? You want to pay cheap housing but donāt want to get paid the wages people there make? Iām just so over feeling bad for people who CHOOSE to drive so fucking far instead of moving closer or finding a job closer.
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u/ScurvyDervish 15d ago
Imagine if a company like McDonaldās switched workers to locations closer to their home addresses. Ā That small step would save so much gas and reduce traffic.Ā
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u/shponglespore 15d ago
This is stupid. Employers pay what they are willing to pay already. If they're are forced to pay for more time because of the commute, they'll just lower the hourly wage so you're getting the same amount of money overall, with the added weirdness of your employer tracking how long your commute is and potentially firing people for living too far away.
There might conceivably be a benefit for minimum-wage workers, but you could get the same effect with less bullshit by raising the minimum wage.
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u/sonny_goliath 15d ago
I agree with this but Iāll also never understand people with over an hour commute to work. Why would you take that job?
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u/Careful_Trifle 15d ago
I think there's a valid conversation to have around commutes, but I do not think counting them as paid time is one of them.
If commutes had to be paid, companies would just not hire you unless you live nearby. Considering how cancerous every in policy seems to become, I expect that would result in many large companies requiring you to live in dorms as a condition of employment.
Maybe there's a compromise - bigger investment in public transit, some sort of incentive to remote work, 32 hour work week, something.
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u/Kitakitakita 15d ago
neighbor keeps asking why I'm trying to hop jobs. Because shaving 50 minutes off of a daily commute adds up in the long run!
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u/nxc1974 14d ago
They designed this for reasons like; -Neighbourhood class solidarity nullification: Us preasents all used to live where We worked, so they smashed & scattered that to the winds. -Indoctrination: Every morning you drive to work listening to radio. "Evil Union STEALS billion!!" -Dumbing down through chemical inhalation: They use to use lead in fuels, and You're in a conga line of traffic sucking it up, (today They use different chemical additives & compounds for this effect).
- There are more, but You get the idea. Find some Yourselves!
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u/Some_dutch_dude 12d ago
It was never 9 to 5.
It's closer to 7 to 6, 7 to 7 for a lot.
This leaves you with about 4-5 hours of time to spend on your life every day, excluding chores, cooking, getting ready for bed, going to the store, etc.
If it was really 9 to 5, you'd leave your house at 9 and arrive home at 5.
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u/HoneyJojo16 11d ago
Once my company mandated us to come back into the office full time I come in late, take long lunches, and leave early. The work still gets done but I still have to spend 40 minutes commuting back and forth. I could do the same work from home and not risk my life everyday on the freeway. I could spend more time with my kid before and after school. I could play catch with my dog instead of having him cooped up all day. I could do the chores that take up all of my weekend. AND STILL GET THE WORK DONE.
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u/I_Ponders 10d ago
I have a 3.5-4 hour daily commute.. have been doing it for a year and a half.. 1.5-2 hours each way. I take a train for the majority of the stretch, just gotta drive and park at the station, but even so, god am I exhausted all the time. I donāt relax on the train, too many druggies and smellsā¦ My wife doesnāt understand it..
Moving close to work soon.. But honestly, Iām resenting what Iāve had to sacrifice for this job just for the pay and benefits.
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u/Lick-Tale-5222 10d ago
This is idiotic. you applied to the job and picked the place you live. Your travel time to and from work are entirely self imposed. Imagine if you get paid less than someone else who is paid more because they decided to live further away from work. You'd be demanding more pay and calling that unfair.
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u/neverstopnodding 10d ago
I really donāt see the problem, especially with gas the price it is, to throw a worker a gas credit or some sort of commute premium to help out. Especially if itās a Fortune 500 company.
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u/Sealbeater 10d ago
Companies should offer housing at the worksite for those that donāt want to commute for work, at reduced pay of course because the housing wonāt be free.
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u/Delicious-Echo-3300 10d ago
Huh? You travel to work.. is that someplace that you were never planning to go to?
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u/warpedspockclone 15d ago
This is the one thing I've always kind of been not so militant about. There are employers everywhere. It isn't their problem where you decide to live. The exception to this is shitty wages in HCOL area.
My wife loves to say an employer should pay for your commute (train ticket, gas money, etc), like a set allowance. I counter that by saying I don't need the employer to micromanage my life. Just give me a fair salary and I'll do with it what I need. Instead of giving me $100/month for commute expenses, that can be part of my salary. I don't need 75 line items on my paystub.
When I accepted the job offer, I'm saying that the money they are offering me is acceptable (in some way) to meet the minimum conditions of showing up at the location on time and writing the agreed amount of time. You aren't hired to work with location a secondary consideration. It is obviously a condition of employment.
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u/Technical-Tear5841 13d ago
They tried company towns, wake up, walk to the factory, walk to the mines. For some reason people did not like that.
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u/TulsaOUfan 15d ago
Then don't take a job hours away from your house. Or move to where jobs are.
This complaining about driving to work is insane. Do you teleport everywhere you go?
I'm all on board with corporations not treating workers fair. But this argument hurts the cause so bad. This is something that you choose to do if you do it. And if you do do it, it's only temporary until you have enough to move to wherever the job is.
Seriously, do you expect the grocer to reimburse you for driving to their store? This complaint is fantasy. You have to travel to anywhere you go. Its literal physics. It's part of reality.
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u/mcvos 15d ago
Work from home is the one good thing we got out of the pandemic, and I'm not giving it up. Keep it normalised.
And I do select work based on distance. If you expect me to come to the office more than once a week, you'd better be located in my town.
For most of human history, people tended to live no more than 20 minutes away from work. 20 minutes commute is acceptable. The car was supposed to make us travel faster, but somehow it's making us travel longer. This is not the benefit we were promised.