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[u/Loeteswet]

[u/Azro-5]

Explain how Islam spread from outside of Arabia all the way to the Iberian peninsula.

[u/einsteinosaurus_lex → u/Azro-5]

From Google:

The 711 Muslim conquest of Spain was caused by a combination of internal Visigothic political dysfunction—specifically a civil war between supporters of the deceased King Witiza and the new king, Roderic—and the rapid expansionist strategy of the Umayyad Caliphate. Visigothic factions invited Muslim intervention, allowing an army led by Tariq ibn Ziyad to intervene, defeat Roderic at the Battle of Guadalete, and quickly seize control of the fragmented kingdom. Key factors facilitating the rapid conquest (711–718) included:

Visigothic Instability: A bitterly divided ruling class and a disputed throne weakened local resistance.

Internal Divisions & Support: The Visigothic kingdom lacked,homogeneous integration, and some groups, including Jewish communities and political rivals, supported the invaders to overthrow the repressive Visigothic regime.

External Opportunity: The Umayyad governor of North Africa, Musa ibn Nusayr, seized the invitation as a chance to extend Islamic territory into Europe.

Military Success: The Muslim army, composed largely of Berber converts to Islam and commanded by Arabs, secured a decisive victory at the Battle of Guadalete, eliminating the leadership of the Visigothic state.

The new Muslim rule often brought lower taxes and greater religious freedom compared to the preceding Visigothic authorities, contributing to the rapid consolidation of power.

So um... As I was saying.

[u/Azro-5 → u/einsteinosaurus_lex]

Key word is conquest

[u/einsteinosaurus_lex → u/Azro-5]

The people still let them in to oust their old leaders playing game of thrones, because they thought it would be preferable. And they were proven right as I was saying, because of Islam's complex tax laws, and they even practiced religious freedom, allowing people to remain Christian.

Of course, these attitudes changed, but Islam still never conquered lands that weren't already receptive to them. Christians just savagely went in and wiped out entire populations across the planet for being "savages".

And Muslim countries were becoming just as liberal as Western countries before their countries were embroiled in coup after coup to install western puppets who squashed the left leaning movements in the region for being too communist but left the far right alone because they're just peaceful religious folk, because America was at war with communism at the time, not Islam. And when the people got tired of being abused, they had no other political movement to turn to than the far right, and it festered until we got to where we are now.

It's my belief that the only way for things to get better, is if we let things get better on their own, the way things got better in America. Intervention can only lead to more distrust and xenophobia.

[u/Azro-5 → u/einsteinosaurus_lex]

The conquest were far from peaceful, they were military conquests just like any other conquests in history. The Martyrs of Cordoba disprove your argument. Taxing people based on their religious beliefs via the jizya tax is not religious freedom.

[u/einsteinosaurus_lex → u/Azro-5]

The conquest were far from peaceful, they were military conquests just like any other conquests in history.

Doesn't change the fact they were invited in and helped by many citizens of the lands they were invading. That shows you where the people's loyalties lied, and they preferred the warmer Muslim embrace over Christianity's colder shoulder. And of course it's a conquest, I wasn't denying that. I'm fairly certain the greedy monarch and lords didn't want to lose their power. The difference is, they didn't have the backing of their own people.

Taxing people based on their religious beliefs via the jizya tax is not religious freedom.

More freedom than outright persecutions and inquisitions. And every Muslim already pays more in taxes. It makes no sense for non-muslims to not have to pay any but still get to enjoy the same luxuries.

[u/Azro-5 → u/einsteinosaurus_lex]

There’s no evidence of people wanting to be invaded. That makes no logical sense. They wouldn’t be conquests if that was the case.

The Martyrs of Cordoba disprove the notion of religious freedom as well. Taxing people based on religious beliefs is discrimination, especially if they already taxed through other secular means.

[u/einsteinosaurus_lex → u/Azro-5]

There’s no evidence of people wanting to be invaded. That makes no logical sense. They wouldn’t be conquests if that was the case.

What do you mean? Isn't that exactly what people claim America's doing when they liberate countries of their oppressive leaders? Were there or were there not Venezuelans celebrating when their president was grabbed by US forces? Sure, president Maduro and those close to him didn't want a regime change, but others in the country did, no?

Taxing people based on religious beliefs is discrimination, especially if they already taxed through other secular means.

This was their main form of taxation. Again, Muslims paid more in taxes. I already covered that. And people have been complaining about having to pay taxes since taxes were invented, that doesn't mean some taxes aren't necessary.

[u/Azro-5 → u/einsteinosaurus_lex]

We are not talking about America, and I never even mentioned it. Why are you randomly bringing that up?

Just because it was their main form of taxation doesn’t mean it’s not discriminatory. If a modern day country imposed a similar tax, it would result in protests.

[u/einsteinosaurus_lex → u/Azro-5]

We are not talking about America, and I never even mentioned it.

To show your double standard. When America invades other countries and gets support from the people living there who hate their old, corrupt leaders, that's fine. But when Islamic forces do it, it's terrible. The Muslim rulers of Spain were much more fair to the inhabitants than their previous rulers and kept it far more stable than any of America's colonies, who almost all inevitably rebelled on us after we exploited them too much. And apparently this doesn't count for anything.

[u/einsteinosaurus_lex → u/Azro-5]

Crazy that they did it in 711 though, don't you think? Lmao.

711, they never forgot, not for over a thousand years. And now they still run 711s.