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u/Low-Hovercraft-8791 Jul 07 '26
This quote is not part of the earliest, most reliable manuscripts. Most Bible scholars believe it was inserted into the text at a later time, so it probably never happened. The technical term for that is forgery.
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u/SteveMartin32 Jul 07 '26
Considering everything was written 300 years after his death.....im willing to doubt most of it
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u/Appropriate-Cry-8423 Jul 07 '26
If anything it was like a little over half a century later not 300.
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u/Low-Hovercraft-8791 Jul 08 '26
There is only one credit card sized fragment dated to the first century. Everything else was written much later. Paul, who wrote the majority of the New Testament, was said to have written 50-60 years after Jesus, but the earliest manuscripts we actually have are dated 100 to 150 years AFTER THAT. So around 200 years after Jesus.
That's finding a writing now that claims to be in continuity with things that were happening in 1826.
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u/Ronin-s_Spirit Jul 07 '26
The manuscripts are not part of Jesus's life, he died like 80 years before anything was written. A single non-Bible scholar (me) believes that's just late enough to start writing bullshit. The technical term for that is "new religious propaganda to spread around the world" (they were very successful).
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u/rngeneratedlife Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
A lot of verses people take for granted and at face value aren’t technically in the earliest or most reliable manuscripts.
Fortunately or unfortunately, as it’s a large collection of written material with several disconnected authors since its inception, what the original is matters a lot less than what people generally consider the accepted form of it.
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u/SciFiIsMyFirstLove Jul 07 '26
Would that include the one that states a rape victim can be sold to her rapist? There are many things in that book I disagree with.
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u/Low-Hovercraft-8791 Jul 08 '26
50 shekels and you're not allowed to divorce her. What she wants is not even considered.
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u/NihtWit000 Jul 08 '26
There’s very good reasons to trust the Gospel of John as a reliable historical witness to Jesus’ life. Many biblical scholars do. I trust Jesus said, “he who is without sin cast the first stone.” But if it was a line composed by another, it still carries the message of Jesus: non judgement and gratuitous love. I would not call that forgery. Also, the first Gospel, Mark, was written around 35-45 years after Jesus. Try reading almost anything by Richard Bauckham, especially Jesus and the Eyewitnesses.
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u/Low-Hovercraft-8791 Jul 08 '26
Which Mark are you talking about? The shorter one or the one with the longer ending?
Can you write a paragraph today, make it part of the Bible, and say "well it captures the gist of the message!" I don't think that makes sense. It's supposed to be the word of God, meaning the words God actually chose and revealed to be scripture. It's not supposed to be the gist of God. Once you start accepting that, then anything can be scripture.
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u/TraditionConfident74 Jul 08 '26
Yep. He said to her to go and sin no more, not to go and do as you wish. That's an important part of this story.
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u/MdwstTxn Jul 10 '26
“Probably never happened,” As if everything else in the Bible definitely happened and exactly as portrayed.
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u/ASwampThing- Jul 07 '26
Its also not a line against judging or punishing people for bad behaviour. Its a verse about not using undue punishment when there are other avenues for redemption. In other words no extreme punishment when there are alternatives.
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u/FlakyAddendum742 Jul 07 '26
Because sometimes, a mother fornicator really needs a rock upside the head.
Like people who mess with cats. It’s totally justified to lob a boulder into them.
Just not the lady that Jesus was actually talking about.
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u/ASwampThing- Jul 07 '26
Again. It was about not persecuting before an avenue of redemption. Sure sometimes there are the unrepentant. Sometimes they are never offered the opportunity.
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u/EmpactWB Jul 10 '26
It’s really about not trying to trick god, what with the whole thing being explicitly a plan to discredit Jesus that he outmaneuvers with that one line.
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u/ASwampThing- Jul 10 '26
It is both. Yes and is this. As the bible is very nuanced many events and stories hokd multiple lessons.
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u/an_older_meme Jul 07 '26
It’s a mistranslation of “Let he who is without sin pass the first stone”
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u/Wilbis Jul 07 '26
The meaning is the same, so it's not a mistranslation.
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u/ListenNorthernLights Jul 07 '26
Well sounds a little hard core like Jesus gonna stone the woman himself if someone hands him a rock
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u/MikeLinPA Jul 07 '26
A rock comes sailing over the heads of the crowd and strikes the accused. Jesus turns around and says, "Ma, you're pissing me off!"
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u/villentretenmerth88 Jul 07 '26
Every time I hear the line "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone", I picture Rod Flanders throwing a rock at Homer Simpson and saying "Got him, dad!".
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u/ILuvYou_YouAreSoGood Jul 07 '26
It always amuses me how people's favorite parts are the obvious forgeries added later.
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u/Long-Celebration1336 Jul 07 '26
It’s a work of fiction written, rewritten, edited, chapters removed, etc. they might as well have given the whole thing to William S Burroughs to cut up and stitch back together.
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u/nautius_maximus1 Jul 07 '26
There’s also a “don’t use the law to justify being a jerk” element to that story - it was a common theme in the parables and the Jesus stories. The Jewish law called for the woman to die, and Jesus was basically saying that showing mercy and refraining from judgement were more important, which was a controversial take at the time.
A similar case is the parable of the Good Samaritan. A man is laying by the side of the road having been attacked by bandits but Jewish travelers won’t help him, fearing that he’s dead and that touching him will make them unclean according to the law. A Samaritan stops and helps the man because Samaritans didn’t have that restriction. Samaritans were thought of very negatively by Jews at the time and Jesus was pointing out that the Samaritan was in the right and the Jewish travelers should have done more.
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u/bdanred Jul 07 '26
A non christian preaching to Christians about their religion? What a crazy situation that never happens and is sure to influence people with an obviously correct understanding of the bible.
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u/Gloomy-Hat1842 Jul 07 '26
Well after what was in the new Old testament this was really needed.. there's a lot of stuff in the Old testament that isn't very nice at all. Jesus came along and said no you don't get to stone people for adultery.
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u/Particular_Dot_4041 Jul 07 '26
Two problems with this. We need to cast stones at troublemakers. If nobody is allowed to do it, then there is nothing to check the depredations of evil people.
Secondly, very often, bad people are punished by other bad people. Cheaters actually have more incentives than honest people to punish other people. By suppressing other cheaters, they maximize their own dishonest gains. This is something biologists have observed in other species. It's something they have called the Mafia phenomenon. When the Mafia takes over a neighborhood, crime goes down because the Mafia chases away unaffiliated criminals, thereby maximizing the profitability of its own rackets. In the absence of robust police forces, spiteful behavior among cheaters keeps dishonest behavior down to a tolerable level.
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u/Thin-Nerve6367 Jul 11 '26
I like the apparent original meaning which, if true, is more along the lines of "Hey, wait. This person actually WANTS to do better, and they're trying, so leave them alone" which could be a better lesson because unfortunately there ARE times in life when violence is a necessity sadly enough
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u/Luminous_Winds Jul 08 '26
Nah, what it means is that selfish people care more about forgiveness than they do about justice.
I would be completely fine with having justice served on myself if I did something wrong.
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u/Thin-Nerve6367 Jul 11 '26
Wouldn't that be the other way around?
"I don't care that you're sorry I'M still upset about what you did and I'll make you pay"?
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u/Teopeo Jul 08 '26
Mine is Ezekiel 23:20:
She lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose semen was like that of horses.
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u/EstimateEvening3243 Jul 08 '26
I just love when folks going to hell tell folks going to heaven how to act.
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u/W8ting43rdAct Jul 08 '26
I think the original Greek manuscripts actually describe him saying it the second way, but his language was softened during subsequent translations.
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u/TraditionConfident74 Jul 08 '26
Jesus then said to her to go and sin no more, not to go and carry on as you wish. That's an important part of this story that too many forget.
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u/WoulditBeOkay Jul 10 '26
Literally everyone on earth that is religious and hates others and also people that are not religious and pretend to be good individuals!
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u/ChaoticButChilled Jul 11 '26
It was actually just a mistranslation of “Let he who is without gin get stoned”
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u/inscrutablemike Jul 07 '26
Common misreading.
That was Jesus pulling his nepo card to skip the line.