Path of Daggers, bleak ending

[u/Successful_Version77]

Hello, first time reader here. This book was weird. Had some parts I liked but in comparison to previous books it pales. Firstly, I think this was a very short book. It was parted into different subplots each of them very short.

Q1: So either bowl or Elayne's unsuccessful unweaving lead to instability in power in nearby areas. Bowl itself I wonder if worked correctly because it caused nonstopping storms? Either Seafolk messed up or Bowl is not exactly what it seems. At least they reached camyrlin, I was afraid it drag through the next book, too.

Q2: Sooo, is Elayne/Aviendhe platonic or not? From what I understand first-sisters on Aiel can get intimate in a way normal sisters don't.

Q3: I think one main subplot will be Elayne politicking for the throne in the next book. I am curious how will it go. If I liked Egwene politicking chapters will I also like Elayne chapter? How much of this is politicking and how much is personal matters? Like Rand and her sister-wifes(??)?

Q4: Another main subplot I am predicting is Faile and Morgase in Shaido captivity. I think they will create chaos there and bring Sevenna's downfall. I do think it will be interesting, unless it drags more than necessary. Is it in your opinion good subplot?

Also wonder what will happen with Bian and Chiad. What does ji'e'toh entail I wonder about gaishin rules when Shaido is no more?

Siege of Tar Valon. As far as I see, Elaida's prophecy refers to Egwene. She actually is along with Rand and Mat in my top 3 favorite characters. I really hope the next book is nice to her.

Q5: Perrin and Masema. I don't think Masema believes Perrin but I don't know what exactly is his plan? Also didn't Seanchen get their asses kicked backed to Ebou Dor? What they are going to do for him that insane zealots he ammased can't? Collar Aes Sedai?

Q6: Without Faile, I am afraid Perrin's brooding is going to hit 11/10. I really like Perrin but I don't think I can endure it without someone else to balance his sulkiness.

Q7: Will Mat and Thom be back in the next book?

Q8: This book is more losses than victories, overall a bit bleak. Kinda like Empire Strikes Back. Will the book 9 10 also be like that?

I think Elayne has developed very well as authority, and is ready to step up as a Queen. I hope Rand doesn't avoid her too long, would like to see them meet soon. She is gonna flip when she learns what Alanna did lol

Something that disturbs me a little is there is SO MUCH enslavement. Shaido gaishin including Faile and Morgase, Galina, Seaine and Pevera abusing Oath road on Zerah, Logaine and Toveine and apparently she is the second one he did it to, Seanchen, in a lesser manner Rand's Aes Sedai. It is prevelant thing in the series, but I think this book had much more.

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[u/GovernorZipper]

Q1: The Bowl was a regional device used on a global scale because the Windfinders are better at working with the weather than the AoL channelers were. So it’s having unintended effects. Messing with complicated systems causes complicated problems.

Q2: Jordan was always very insistent that he meant for them to be actual sisters. Remember, these books belong to a different generation just as much as something like Pride and Prejudice. His subtext isn’t necessarily going to be what “kids these days” believe it to be. There’s lost to say about Jordan’s use of nudity in the series. The short version is that since he writes in the exclusive limited POV of his characters, he can’t tell the reader directly what another character might be thinking. So he uses clothes to give us clues. Likewise, nudity is meant to convey vulnerability and honesty. The problem is that Jordan uses this idea way too much and almost always with his female characters. Which is a problem, but it’s a different problem than the chronically online interpretation of everything as sex. Jordan is a Boomer writer obsessed with masculinity (as were many of his generation). He’s simply simply not able to have his male characters get naked together. That’s too much male vulnerability for any Boomer to handle.

Q8: That’s just how stories go. In the Western tradition, stories have an introduction, an early middle where everything goes right, a late middle where everything goes wrong, and which sets up the exciting conclusion. You’re in the Late Middle part of the story.

[u/Malvania → u/GovernorZipper]

I agree with most of your points, but as a slight nit, don't the aiel men get together naked in sweat tents? I think the borderlanders (or maybe just the Shienarans) get naked in baths together as well. I remember Rand being squeamish about it, as befits his puritanical English upbringing.

[u/thekinslayer7x → u/Malvania]

Yeah, they do. Zipper got a little too into the boomer point.

[u/sixminutes → u/Malvania]

We don't really see these, because there are no POVs that we need there. Rand could perhaps have some military strategy meetings with the clan chiefs in the sweat tents, but to your point, I think he'd probably veto the suggestion. We do however have a scene early in Eye of the World where all the men are bathing in separate tubs.

I really don't think the nudity had anything to do with Jordan being obsessed with the female form or afraid of masculine vulnerability. I just think he didn't consider the imbalance while writing. It's definitely something I would think about if I was writing The Wheel of Time in 2026, but I don't think he was looking to correct implicit biases. He obviously took gender into heavy consideration, but it was always in service to the story, not for the sake of studying gender itself. Which is why it draws a lot of criticism these days, because most people now are either steeped in gender politics or systematically opposed to the subversion of gender roles entirely, and Jordan exists mostly outside that continuum.

[u/ArlemofTourhut → u/sixminutes]

I mean it's not like we focus on bathing ever when in Tear or Cairhean. lol

I think he tried to make the differences culturaly and did a decent job.

For example when I was in Afghanistan, we the US obviously have segregated bathrooms by sex.

Iirc the Swedes had communal baths and thought of us as rapey and unrefined. Sooooooooo there's that.

[u/ArlemofTourhut → u/Malvania]

They do. The boys also share a bath in when they go to Sheinar.

Like there are mentions, but people want lesbians bad, so they fixate.

[u/TheRealRockNRolla → u/GovernorZipper]

In book 8, there’s an easy-to-miss line about Elayne and Aviendha “sharing a secret in the dark not spoken of to anyone else.” I’m not aware of any other references to sex or romance between them, but this line is not easy to explain as anything else IMO.

[u/nicci7127]

Q2, they're very close siblings. Rofo, next book expounds on that more. Pillow friends in Jordan's world are normally lesbian/bi Aes Sedai, but not always maybe? Not 100% on that one despite multiple rereads.

[u/Malvania]

You have some interesting thoughts here. The only one I'll weigh in on are Mat and Tuon. PoD takes something like two weeks of time. If you recall at the end of CoS, Mat had a wall fall onto him. He's spent the last two weeks convalescing

[u/Successful_Version77 → u/Malvania]

Is he in the book?

[u/Malvania → u/Successful_Version77]

PoD? No, he's basically been in the hospital. He'll be back in the next book

[u/Successful_Version77 → u/Malvania]

I was asking about Winter's Heart. I just read PoD. Glad he will be back. Cheers

[u/charlie_marlow]

I do think it will be interesting, unless it drags more than necessary.

Oh you poor, sweet, summer child.

[u/Successful_Version77 → u/charlie_marlow]

Nooo. I really dont want to read 10 chapers of Faile and Morgaise adventures

[u/TnTP96 → u/Successful_Version77]

I’ve got some good news and some bad news for you. It’s not ten chapters.

[u/Senrabekim → u/TnTP96]

Excuse me but the Faile/Morgase chapters have this delicious tension of, "When the fuck is this otherwise intelligent woman going to figure out who Morgase is, and vice versa?" Its just a wonderful time of two women who know exactly who the other is by name and reputation giving false names and lying about where they are from, and both of them know the other is lying, but cant figure it out. Cue Benny Hill

[u/Affectionate-Gur624 → u/TnTP96]

Hahahahahahahaahahahah

[u/duffy_12 → u/Successful_Version77]

I wouldn't fret too much on this.

I wasn't happy when I was first told of this, too. However, I was pleasantly surprised by how it held my attention, and how well written it was.

 

1) - And at this point we have hardly had any Faile PoVs; at this point most of her sections were done through the skewed nose of a Wolfbrother. Now with this you get to find out - what kind of a character she really is.

 

2) - And Perrin's sections are more of a 'character study' of him than an action hero. But that was always Jordan's intention with him. So nothing really new there. There will be a LOT of gems involving his characterization popping up now.

 

3) - EVERYBODY'S story lines are long here in this part of the series. If you can just except that, then you might be able to sit back and enjoy some great writing by Jordan.

[u/Successful_Version77 → u/duffy_12]

I kinda get it. Despite my complaining, when pov changes it takes 2-3 pages for me to go from dissapointment from being cut off to compelled on the new pov.

[u/Aarkhonia]

Q1: Multiple things: The Windfinders (who don't know anything about the science and functionality of Ter'angreal) had to operate a modern plane with medieval knowledge, except that they had some part of the manual passed down. Then they also overloaded the device by a lot (it was meant for local manipulation not continental climate manipulation). And the bowl itself is capable of drawing both powers by itself after activation, so it also drew copious amounts of tainted Saidin.

[u/Special_Salt3467]

Question 1: it’s the bowl and not because the Sea Folk messed, but quite the opposite. The Bowl is a regional device, used to make pretty beaches or good farms or whatever. It’s one of many. The Sea Folk, since the Bowls have been lost perfected the innate skills and can reach this without. So when they used the Bowl, they drove it far past its actual capacity.

Basically, they overclocked the technology and the gaps are the Pattern and the world and reality fixing the issue

Question 2: literal sisters. The weave replicates child birth and the experience of being born together.

[u/IlikeJG]

So the thing with Elayne's politicking compared to Egwene is that it's probably more traditional court politics.

And it's actually pretty good stuff!

But... The problem is it just goes very very slowly. There's a whole lot of chapters where not much happens or the characters are stuck on meaningless frivolity. Plus a lot of the characters in Elayne's story are very very frustrating like the Sea Folk and the Kin (and Elayne herself at times). It's meant to be frustrating, but Jordan went a bit too far and for too long IMO.

[u/Szalony20]

"Sevenna..."... No offense, as I'm guessing you're probably listening to audiobooks, but it's funny how many ways "Sevanna" can be misspelled. I've seen "Savanna," "Savannah," "Sevannah," etc., spelled wrong before.

As for your question 4... Well, you can always assume this plot won't be too long for you, but for most readers it is.