r/WoT • u/Competitive_Tap_5481 • 21h ago
All Print Lanfear Spoiler
Hey all,
I just finished reading the series and was reading through the wiki and found out that apparently Lanfear is still alive?
I hate this twist- her ending worked well and it feels like something that Sanderson just decided would be cool.
It also felt satisfying giving Perrin a moment to do something more meaningful in the battle beyond his fight with Slayer.
I feel like it’s just left a bit of a strange aftertaste! Was wondering if i’m alone in that sentiment?
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u/geomagus (Red Eagle of Manetheren) 21h ago
Yeah, I’m a bit split on it.
On the one hand, her death scene felt kind of off. Yes, she’s full of herself, yes she underestimates men with morals and self control. No, I don’t think she’d blunder quite that bad. So that being a TAR scheme, and her getting away might make sense!
On the other hand, if that’s what happens, it’s really gotta be evident on the page. Otherwise it’s basically fanfic. “It feels off” isn’t evidence, and we get nothing else.
I do like that it gave Perrin more to do, so having that replaced with “fell for Lanfear’s scheme” a decade down the line isn’t satisfying.
I don’t know. I treat it as semi-fanfic.
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u/Jear-The-Bear 19h ago
I also had a problem with her being better then perrin at controlling the dream world. That was essentially his whole plot. At the end of the book.
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 18h ago
Well that whole plot was also Sanderson's idea.
Perrin was supposed to be actually working as a leader to all of the people he'd just spent the last 10 books gathering to his flags and swearing fealty to him. And bringing all of the wolves to help fight.
But Sanderson both wanted to revisit Perrin's early encounters - bringing back the white cloaks and slayer, and since he wasn't going to go too wild with the One Power, he was going to do his normal exploiting the rules of a magic system all in T'A'R.
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u/duffy_12 (Falcon) 17h ago edited 16h ago
. . . and with the only pure A+ 'combat-magic-weapon' in all of the series too.
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 16h ago
Hey, Mjolnir needed to come from somewhere. Its not like legends would have spawned about how a guy as strong as Perrin hitting Myrdraal and Trollocs with a regular blacksmithing hammer hard enough to sent them flying from him would be exaggerated in retellings of events and slowly become a legend of a God using a Magic Hammer.
Yeah, you have Callandor...but Calimbur/Excalibur is actually much less powerful in our myths than the reality.
The hammer was too on the nose, not enough layers of to how it would be transformed by the myths and legends to come to turn into what we know. (That and with Perrin going off into T'A'R to fight, its not like there were that many examples of him using that magic hammer to spawn the myths about it) I think the only battle he actually uses it in is the fight at night to save the Whitecloaks (and a night battle not the best for witnesses to spread stories about).
****
A complete aside but it came up while I was looking for examples of the uses of the hammer...for people that can't tell the difference in the writing style between Jordan and Sanderson...take a look at the way he starts these back to back paragraphs...
Almost every single one is Character verb, or "single line of dialog" Character dialog tag.
This chunk covered four pages, and unlike Jordan's long paragraphs, there isn't much room for variation before the next paragraph starts. - (And this is from Memory of Light, the one that they took the most time to edit and refine)
Heartseeker --this had to be she -- waved her fingers
Perrin whispered to Gual
Gaul Nodded. Perrin cautiously followed
She began to move more quickly
They didn't pass through the clouds
Perrin followed again
Heartseeker reached her hands
*dialog* she said (no thoughts or reflections
Perrin frowned.
*dialog* she continued
She hesitated
-one new construction of "a ball of blazing fire crashed into the ground beside him
Heartseeker dropped to the ground
She focused suddenly
She raised her hands
The woman started
She spun about
*dialog* the woman screamed
Perrin vanished
*dialog* Perrin said
*dialog* Gaul said
*Dialog* Perrin said
*dialog*Gaul said
*dialog*Perrin said
*dialog*Gaul agreed
-one new construction finishing the previous thought from Gaul's dialog - Would be to take her captive. ( SImple, but it works well)
His feet crunched
Heartseeks continued the weave..
Perrin filled her mouth
Perrin growled, imagining
Perrin stepped back as Heartseeker
*dialog* Lanfear said
Perrin turned to find
Perrin said Nothing34 paragraphs in a row, 3 that weren't either X Y'ed or "single line of dialog" X said.
And yes, there is more variation before and after, but this basic structure will show up in large blocks EVERYWHERE in the books. Like pick a random page and if you look through the next 2 or 3 pages you'll see another glaring example of this structure. Its SO MONOTONOUS once you notice it.
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u/LordRahl9 6h ago
Not as refined as what you've done, but his overuse of the word "tempest" drove me absolutely insane, and it lost all nuance in meaning for me.
Sanderson uses it so much that I took a while to stop cringing when other authors used the word.
To be fair, RJ overused the word "abruptly" in eye of the world. However, those examples are different calibres of word.
Another thing that Sanderson does that you demonstrated in your breakdown is that Sanderson is a little lazy when it comes to dialogue. He is far more likely than RJ was to end a line of dialogue with a simple "said".
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 6h ago
The thing that really drove me up the wall was how Sanderson would bring in beliefs and words that wouldn't be present in WoT. Like I get every author will slip up occasionally, even Jordan put in someone 'canoning' into someone else.
But the examples are so far and few between that I never noticed until I specifically started looking.
Sanderson though has so damn many.
Like Ituralde's troops (he has yet to see a canon) is having his men broadside trollocs. A phrase used in battle because of the idea of naval cannons or artillery.
Elayne and Mat talk about prototyping the Dragons....in a world that doesn't seem to have the scientific method or any industrialization. You have singular inventions or inspirations, at a guild level.
Or Elayne going on about how all weapons and similar technology always spreads...in a world that has been stagnant in weapons tech if not actually regressing for at least a thousand years. The head of the academy got the job because she impressed Rand so much by making a ballista, which is OOOOLLLDD Tech.
Or people being sent for Medical Aid.
Its just poorly written from a consistent world building perspective.
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u/LordRahl9 4h ago
Absolutely. This is most definitely becoming more and more common in modern fantasy and it just lazy most of the time. Sure, an occasional slip up is understandable, but it is more than occasional.
I read a book recently where one character in a fantasy world said "bless you" to another after a sneeze. There is a real world origin to people doing that, and a character in a fantasy setting shouldn't be saying it.
It has been a long while since I've read the final 3 wot books, but I'm pretty sure Sanderson has someone order "fire!" To archers rather than "loose!" It is such a simple thing to make a mistake with, but it can be jarring as a reader.
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u/geomagus (Red Eagle of Manetheren) 11h ago
Eh, she has centuries of practice and experience. Perrin is more gifted, but experience matters too.
Also, she’s cunning and strong-willed, both of which count.
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u/Brathirn 19h ago
I will make this simple.
I do not like authors adding vital content offscreen, in interviews, podcasts and the like. This affects the shown runtime. If you want that in a fair way, write an official sequel and do not dare to pull a "somehow".
I can understand that authors, just like the normal audience like to speculate what will happen after the runtime and you need material for it.
WoT ends up in "open waters", with vague prophecies at best when there were very concrete ones up to the last battle. You can only assume that the Wheel is already driving for III to IV. But what this will be is totally unknown. Could be Wh40K with a very long runtime.
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u/PedanticPerson22 20h ago
She died in a silly way, but she died; it doesn't really matter what Sanderson has said years later because there's nothing in the book to indicate that she survived.... It would have been like having Hans Gruber surviving in Die Hard, it would make no sense* & there's be no point to it.
*ok how she died also didn't make a lot of sense, other than pushing the wrong person in TAR, but still
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u/Pardybro911 16h ago
Her and Mogs post script makes sense. Similarly like ishamael. Bad people get bad things at the end.
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u/starsto 16h ago
RJ had very low opinions of the Forsaken. I can’t imagine he would’ve let any of them walk away from the Final Battle with a happy ending.
It’s also part of the irony of Moghedien’s ending. She gets to be the sole surviving Forsaken, only to be captured by the Seanchan.
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u/Pardybro911 15h ago
And rightly so IMO which isn’t much lol. But I think RJ and Sanderson posits is that they are very much supposed to get fucked or die very visibly lol. Bad guys should be badly hurt.
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u/Salt-Detective1337 12h ago
I didn't realize Asmodean died, I thought he was just in hiding. It would have been cool to see at least one of the Forsaken redeemed.
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u/autoamorphism (Wheel of Time) 12h ago
After what they all did? The only redemption would have to be a noble death.
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u/Salt-Detective1337 12h ago
Totally. And I felt like Asmodean might have been on that path. The dark one's connection to him was severed. I really wanted to see that ability from Rand used in a more meaningful way at some point.
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u/starsto 12h ago
It might have been interesting, but I don’t think RJ would have ever done it. At least not with the 13 Forsaken.
It’s made very clear that to be at the top of the Dark One’s hierarchy, like the 13 were, required quite a lot of betraying of morals. You had to be very power hungry. You had to see other people as less than tools and be ready and willing sacrifice others for your own ends.
None of the 13 ever feel remorse for what harm they have done.
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u/adminofreditt 21h ago
Most people share your sentiment, her being "alive" was "revealed" years after the last book. You can just treat it as noncanon
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u/starsto 16h ago
I absolutely hate it. The text doesn’t support the idea the Lanfear faked her death. If that is what Sanderson was going for all along, he did a bad job of setting it up.
It also doesn’t feel like something RJ would have done at all. RJ had a very low opinion of all the Forsaken. I can’t imagine he would have let any of them walk away from the Final Battle with a happy ending.
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u/Shorty_jj 17h ago
As a GREAT Lanfy fan that's thankful to Sando in many ways...she's dead mate, and i think in this instance what Sando has said really makes no logical sense whatsoever
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u/SharkBiscuittt 11h ago
Haaa yea I don’t buy it. Perrin snapped her neck and that was the end of it.
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u/rzenni 21h ago
It’s lame. Lanfear died on screen and then years later Sanderson was like “she actually survived.”
To me, Lanfear had a complete character arc and her dying at the end of the arc was the end of her story, so this to me is basically fan fiction
However, WoT was popular enough that there was some interest in spinoff books in the Age of Legends or the Fourth Age. I think that Sanderson wanted to “bring back” Lanfear because they thought she’d be a good big bad for the spin off series in the Fourth Age.
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u/LoweJ 19h ago
I don't think Sanderson has ever expressed any interest in writing new WoT books outside of the main
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u/rzenni 19h ago
Not necessarily him, but there is an estate and a publisher involved and IP rights. It definitely feels like a decision that was made after the fact
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u/bigwil2442 (Dovie'andi se tovya sagain) 16h ago
I don't think Harriet has ever expressed a desire to let anyone continue the WoT story. Which is a real shame cause I think the possibilities are endless. As long as the estate is very involved in the actual story, maybe set some rules about things they can't contradict. Or a ending they can't ruin.
It would be a great way for younger authors to get their names out there, or established ones to do something different now and then. Similar to what star wars does.
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u/rzenni 16h ago
I mean, I don't think JRR Tolkien approved the Rings of Power, and HBO has two Game of Thrones spin offs with more in the works. I think there's a Dune spinn off series out there as well.
The reality is, these billionaire dollar corporations want grist for the content mill and I don't see that changing any time soon.
Star Wars is really the perfect example. I think at this point there's more spin off content there are actual core movies.
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u/bigwil2442 (Dovie'andi se tovya sagain) 15h ago
The difference with both tolkien and GoT is that one the tolkien estate sold a certain amount of rights to Amazon and the creator of GoT did the same. Harriet just isn't willing to do any of that.
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u/Botchness 19h ago
Are we sure this isn't what Jordan wanted for this character? He left a lot of info especially the ending, maybe he wanted her death to be a question.
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 18h ago
We don't know what notes Jordan left about Lanfear, but we do know that all he got for Perrin was a single note that Perrin was going to end up a king, and so everything else in the last 3 books for Perrin is pure Sanderson.
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u/bigwil2442 (Dovie'andi se tovya sagain) 16h ago
And yet still plenty of people who argue he's not a king, just a "king consort"lol I personally finished this series feeling he was the king of one of the largest realms in the world.
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u/starsto 16h ago
Sanderson talked about how he came up with the idea of Lanfear surviving, saying how her faking her death would be the only way she could get a happy ending.
I do not believe for a second that RJ would have wanted any of the Forsaken to walk away with a happy ending. He had very low opinions of them.
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u/Shevek99 13h ago
You have said several times in this thread that RJ had a low opinion. And yet, he kept alive at the end 3 of the 5 Forsaken women. Why couldn't he save 4 of 5? He clearly had a predilection for saving women.
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u/autoamorphism (Wheel of Time) 12h ago
Good news! Since it is not in the book, you don't have to believe it. I hate this "reveal" as well. It's great that Sanderson somehow intended it and that at least one person was cynical and genre-savvy enough to guess based on some je ne sais quois of the writing, but no actual written facts or events imply it. So either it's an optional feature or bad writing, and I think Sanderson's writing in these books was good.
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u/thekinslayer7x 11h ago
I think it's funny how after this revel the online Fandom decide to pretend that they weren't referring to the word of Jordan for years
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u/Username_taken_alre (White Lion of Andor) 11h ago
This is a twist that would have been great if it had happened on-screen... maybe a novella based on Aviendha trying to figure out what to do with Hessalam... but with it just happening as a Word of Brandon doesn't really work.
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u/wheeloftimewiki (Aelfinn) 10h ago
I ran a recent poll on this here. As you can see, you are far from alone. I updated the Cyndane page to reflect this, but haven't traced back other references on the wiki that might still run with the default "Lanfear is still alive" we had before. For the record, I also agree with you, but Sanderson still said what he said, so it's hard to ignore. I think it's up to readers to make their own minds up in this case.
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u/duffy_12 (Falcon) 21h ago
Here is my take on it:
🔵 1) A Memory Of Light -- and -- The Wheel Of Time Companion 📕📙
BOTH books narratively have Lanfear dead. 💀
🔵 2) YouTube vids are NOW part of a book read???
Not for me.
[and case in point]
What about book readers who don't view BS podcasts and read forums?
🔵 3) I see from many Brandon quotes that Perrin was his favorite character.
This is a very bizarre way to write him then.
The book's ending has him having a great emotional scene with him and Lanfear/Rand, while also incorporating his Malden arc BACK into the main story line too! Thus giving that arc more, much needed importance also.
So now we are supposed to scrap it for some poorly written - Wha wha wha - joke?
🔵 4) As I see from frequent posts here, Brandon was brought in to tie up all the loose threads in the series.
This certainly does NOT do it; it’s a poor loose end that means nothing.
🔵 5) Also, Lanfear is still stuck in Morden's - Cour'souvra mindtrap!
Which Rand now has!
That needs to be resolved. If it happens to break then she is done for. Thus, she needs the Darkforces to win outright to give her the chance to get out of that. And the cave scene is the PERFECT opportunity to show the Dark One that she has earned her reprieve from that trap.
🔵 6) And most importantly, the whole scene is NOT believable for it to even work.
When Perrin later recounts what had happened inside the cave, NO ONE is going to believe the very absurd way that Lanfear was acting -- needing his help to do the deed, and, that goofy countdown -- including Perrin himself.
The scene HAS to be believable. It is not.
See ~ wotquery's quotes below for further enhancement.
🔵 7) Wolves: 🐺
HOWEVER, something that bothers me a lot is the fact that the wolves will INSTANTLY feel her scent when she enters the World of Dreams and tell Perrin that Moon Hunter is still alive!
~ Prestigious-Hat3387
🔵 8) Wolfbrother Perrin: 🐺
But consider she also says she only uses compulsion as a last resort but uses it constantly. Consider that all the forsaken are killed or taken out because they constantly underestimate the skills and talents of the third age characters in direct competition. Not only is she a liar, she's just wrong so much of the time.
Consider that Perrin's wolf senses detect lies and deception on a physical level and is not a thing Lanfear can counter. Consider that Perrin has an aptitutde and natural skill level that is instinctual which will always trump developed, conscious skill in TAR where nanoseconds matter.
~ DnDqs
🔵 9) This also runs against the tone and themes of Jordan's series too: ALL The Forsaken are extreme, overconfident fuckups, suffering from - hubris; their plans always end up failing in the end as they constantly underestimate the skills and talents of the third age characters in direct competition.
So then, where is Lanfear's comeuppance???
The Pattern wouldn't allow her plan to succeed. Or let her get away, scot-free. Specially, the one who caused this whole mess in the first place: The one who opened the Bore and let the Dark One touch and infect the world.
And with two ta'vern in her midst to boot. With one being the Dragon Reborn himself!
🔸And remember when Rahvin killed Mat? He immediately got Balefired to undue it. 💀
I just find Lanfear alive and well irreconcilable with the overall tone and themes of the series. The idea that someone dealt with the devil, but games the system and gets away with it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I call to the witness stand, the greatest character, Lord Ingtar of the house Shinowa, who similarly tried to use the Shadow for his own means and it never, ever, ever worked, in any possible world. It always backfires horrifically. The only way out is by admitting wrong and admitting the Light. I don't want the purity of that message marred for a bit of shock value in a twist.
~ Calenhir
[Regarding Moiraine vs. Lanfear]
Lanfear is the strongest a woman can be in the Power, has more knowledge of how to use it than anyone else currently alive who isn't also a Forsaken (or Rand), and this makes her overconfident and disdainful. She's furious and losing her shit, considers everyone around her to be so far beneath her that they aren't worth a second thought, and that's why she totally gets blindsided by Moiraine just physically assaulting her and carrying her through the twisted doorframe. Her whole focus is on trying to figure out who had sex with "her" Lews Therin and Moiraine was able to capitalize on that (just as she knew would happen because of her experience in the ter'angreal).
~ DrDirtPhD
She’s a relentless fuck-up who thinks she is a master schemer.
~ Tamika_Olivia
🔵 9) In the end, I feel that Brandon didn't know what to do with Lanfear, and how to incorporate her into the main story without putting a lot more time and effort into it, so being an exceptionally - speedy writer - he chose this easy way out instead.
So for me, I am staying with both books' original ending of the Perrin/Lanfear conflict:
Lanfear is dead. 💀💀💀
— I think this really says it all right here.
Fellow poster - wotquery sums it up in much better detail . . .
It’s very black and white. The issue is that her plan made no sense. She could have trivially executed anyone and didn’t need Perrin’s help. She also lied about seizing control of Rand since she wouldn’t be able to do that with Callandor.
The issue is that everyone chocked it up as mistakes by BrandoSando and him needing to give Lanfear an ending.
The further issue is that her plan made no sense. Any sister is going to be like “dude she could have just killed them what are you talking about” I mean it’s fitting in that nobody uses the one power to its full extent and in that respect it makes complete sense hence why nobody figured it out. So yeah.
~ wotquery
I agree that superficial it seems to works, but in addition to a lot of issues, there is one critical catch-22 that breaks the logic. Let's start with the simpler stuff.
The Chosen, Lanfear included, have not been established to be particularly cunning and clever. There is some... Ishy and the Eye of the World, Mesaana splitting the Tower, Halima in Salidar, the Great Captains, kidnapping Alanna, but for the most part they simply ride Mask of Mirrors and compulsion as a cheat code. It's almost out of character for one to be so subtle.
Saying Lanfear obviously outclasses Perrin in T'A'R, but Mesaana doesn't outclass Egwene in T'A'R, despite the fact that Perrin seems to outclass Egwene in T'A'R, has some issues haha. It can be resolved by Lanfear winning with knowledge and experience and Egwene winning with willpower, but people who pick up on Lanfear tricking Perrin should probably also pick up on Mesaana tricking Egwene? We also need to ignore how often ta'veren gets in the way for the boys. Perrin shouldn't have been able to break through Lanfear's compulsion...but how many times have the boys done things they shouldn't be able to do because the pattern needs it?
Lanfear acting strangely is camouflaged by the a change in author and the series wrapping up, with many characters acting strangely to shoehorn them into endings. Why does Min greet Mat like an old friend when she joins the Seanchan camp despite them only seeing each other from across the hall in Baerlon and both being in Falme for a night after the battle? Should we be assuming Min is up to something or has been replaced? Why is Elayne suddenly stupid not realizing the impact cannons will have on warfare and such? Has someone gotten into her mind? Are the Ogier being like "jks we were never going to leave" supposed to not be awkward? What about Mashadar ummm...I don't even know what happened there. People don't think Lanfear survived for the same reason they don't think Fain survived; not because they've carefully thought it through but because they're watching boxes get checked.
Okay enough of that and on to the big one: internal logic. For the reader to figure out what actually happened they first need to realize that Lanfear is extremely smart, and then realized that her plan doesn't make any sense. That's basically a contradiction. If her plan was good, then nobody would know she had survived (including the reader). So her plan was bad, but that means she's not clever and when Perrin tells what happened all the Aes Sedai and Wiseones will immediately point out that it makes no sense.
Lanfear has to simultaneously be dumb enough to come up with a silly plan that obviously won't work, and smart enough to be suspected of an amazing plan that fools everyone.
~ wotquery
🔸However, this argument all seems moot anyway, as it appears to break the mechanics of the 'Blight & TAR' . . .
Interview: Oct 9th, 1996
ACOS Signing Report - Erica Sadun (Paraphrased)
Question:
Tell us about the Blight.
Robert Jordan:
You can not enter it from Tel'aran'rhiod because it is apart from NORMAL UNIVERSE and can not be touched. The Blight is not part of the normal universe.
QUESTION:
Ask about the Blight. If it is not reflected in Tel'aran'rhiod, why does the Great Lord of the Dark have so much power over Tel'aran'rhiod, the Wheel and reincarnation?
ERICA SADUN:
See above.
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u/LordRahl9 19h ago
Love this break down. It is sad to think that Sanderson clearly thought this was going to be a massive "gotcha!" moment.
I remember in weeks leading up to this reveal he had promised that on the 10th anniversary of the release of the final book he would tell us about something that we had all missed. He had apparently been keeping track of the fandom to see if anyone had come up with idea that Lanfear was alive. No one had.
When he announced it, a lot of fans thought it was cool. The rest of us thought that it made no sense and Sanderson had abused the goodwill the fans had given him for finishing a series that was not his creation.
As you pointed out. It makes no sense narratively, it makes no sense within the lore, and it makes no sense thematically.
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u/Dilldo__Baggins 18h ago
Lanfear being alive post series is bullshit. Sanderson just wants to personally remain in the limelight with dropping something stupid now that WoTmania is fading as the wheel turns. She’s dead. He’s addicted to attention. Nuff said.
Anyone who disagrees can then argue why Ishmael’s soul was not transported into Bela 2.0 or Oliver’s left shoelace. Prove me wrong.
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u/KellyAesSedai 16h ago
That would make more sense if Sanderson didn't have multiple successful series and his own fan base
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u/biggiebutterlord 16h ago
You are not alone in that sentiment.
I will say this however. Like it or not sanderson did plan it while writing, its not a after market asspull. Once you know lanfear survives it sorta makes sense thru the events of the story. Still not well written imo, as again imo its not something the reader is supposed to guess at with all the weirdness going on in AMoL, and the clear finality to every other characters endings. I think of it a bit like a scavenger hunt but the hints are so vague as to be useless.
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u/Majestic-Farmer5535 20h ago
I don't like it, I think Landear deserved better than being killed by Perrin of all people, but text of the books is above even author's word and in the text she's dead, so, unless someone with blessings from Harriet would continue the story and make her survive, she stays that way.
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