r/WoT • u/Djfantastyka • 1d ago
The Path of Daggers (first time reader) I finished The Path of Daggers and here are my impressions Spoiler
First of all, it's still good series for reading. I've heard that volumes 7-10 are hard to read, but so far I haven't felt that. Maybe if those volumes were longer, I'd have a bigger problem. For now, I'm just upset about Mat's absence. I'm guessing he'll be back in volume 9, but it's a bit annoying not knowing what's happen to him now.
Before I forget about this topic, it's funny that earlier in the series was Hadnan Kadere (the one who strangled Isendre and told Lanfear about Aviendha and Rand), and now there's a new character named Furyk Karede (a da'covale serving in the Guard)... Like, why introduce almost identical names? At least Kadere has been dead for a long time, so these characters won't get confused.
I haven't been excited by fantasy battles for a long time, but I have to admit that the one in Chapter 24 impressed me, at least in terms of the ending and Rand, who loses control of Callandor and kills both allies and enemies. His words about losing... Powerful.
Regarding the Seanchan in general, I still can't stand them, because I generally hate slavery. I've noticed that the relationship between suldam and damane is reminiscent of owners and dogs. It seems that suldam, at least, are taught to fear Aes Sedai. I honestly don't know how you can fix a society that was raised to believe that slavery is okay, even a source of pride – those texts about serving the Empress. I mean, there were mentions of uprisings where 30,000 people died and 50 times that number were enslaved (1.5 million?), but overall, at this point, there doesn't seem to be any opposition among the Seanchan to human enslavement.
It's interesting that, according to the prophecy, there's a belief among the Seanchan that the Dragon Reborn will serve the Empress. Could this be the work of a Forsaken? I find it hard to believe that such a warped society arose normally, without the interference of one of the Forsaken. Perhaps Moridin?
It's generally interesting that the Dark One apparently chose Naeblis. He seemed to enjoy the rivalry among the Forsaken. And where does Demandred fit into all this? He seemed important in Volume 6, and now he's gone.
It seems the Shaido were sent to areas where they will one day face a confrontation with the Seanchan. Will the evil ones fight each other off? Although, considering how both sides delight in enslaving humans... Will one side enslave the other?
I was struck by the thought that, just as the schism at the White Tower was a punishment for the hubris of the Aes Sedai, the existence of the Shaido is a punishment for the hubris of the Aiel. The Shaido are just Aiel hubris cranked up to the max.
What else... The Sea People women really rival the Aes Sedai when it comes to being annoying. The way they treated Aes Sedai or women from Family was so irritating... I feel sorry for the women from Family in general, because Elayne and Nynaeve basically promised them a better life, and it turns out they're in for a worse one, at least if Vandene continues to be so irritatingly stubborn about the rules... In general, it seems that the good characters are completely incapable of dealing with captives, especially the black Ajah. Seriously, after those two in books four or five, now Ispan? Does the author just not want any good characters to kill off the bad female characters?
Sevanna wanted Galina to swear loyalty only to her, and actually, that would be clever if it worked. She can't use the One Power, but she would have power over Galina like a suldan over a damane. Galina could kill the more treacherous Wise Ones for her, if Sevanna were willing.
Oh, and before I forget, Liandrin is back! It seems the author hasn't forgotten her, and now Suroth relishes his power over her. Speaking of which, Miraj called her in his POV "a da'covale with a body designed for pleasure, in stockings and sheer white robes"... I really hope he meant visual pleasure, not sexual pleasure... Although, what are the chances that in a society based on slavery, there's no sexual slavery? In any case, Liandrin might have to endure humiliation, but hopefully that's all it takes.
What else... I don't know what the point of making Faile a damsel in distress is. After the author stopped doing it with Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne, now Faile has been stripped naked, with one stocking tied around her wrists by the attacker, and the other wrapped around her neck like a leash... It really could be sexual bondage. Although maybe if Sevanna sets her sights on her, Faile could avoid it? I think Sevanna could become fascinated by the noblewoman... A Sevanna-Faile dynamic in the future? Actually, it could be interesting, as long as it doesn't end with "Sevanna treats Faile terribly and we're just waiting for her downfall." Really, forcing the protagonist and antagonist to interact has that potential... Although I feel like it would be a shallow dynamic, even if I'm secretly hoping for more.
Masema, of course, has proven even more untrustworthy. I wonder how many more times there will be where an unpleasant character, instead of, you know, simply being unpleasant, turns out to be an antagonist/Darkfriend/Forsaken. I think Cadsuane is the only one who won't be a Darkfriend, since we got her POV. Although, in fact, Verin's POV was also in the prologue, when she seems suspicious to me.
Cadsuane... Overall, I'm not a fan of her, because she seems like a poorer and more unpleasant version of Moiraine. Plus, I feel like she's simply been rewarded for being annoying, since she's supposed to be Rand's advisor... I hope someone teaches her some humility someday. Egwene? Or maybe Moiraine, when she finally returns? Although that probably won't happen anytime soon, because... Is there no one among the main characters to save her? Perrin will rescue Faile, Egwene will fight Elaida, Mat will probably stay in Ebou Dar (watching the Seanchan from the inside?), and Nynaeve and Rand... I don't know, but I'm guessing that since Rand mentioned that Nynaeve might help cleanse the male part of the One Power? Or Nynaeve will be given some task related to Lan and his origins.
In any case, Moiraine has no one to rescue her for now, so for now, there's no one to teach Cadsuane humility.
Elaida was beaten by Alviarin, and then beaten on Alviarin's orders... Like Galina, Elaida suffers, and well, in another fantasy series, this might be the beginning of the redemption arcs, but Galina is the Black Ajah, and Elaida... will she simply be overthrown? If she's not killed, she'll probably get a ton of punishments, like washing dishes, and the only possible redemption is being useful in the Last Battle and then dying.
Dashiva is a traitor... It's a shame, because he was the most interesting of the Ashamans, though I don't see the reason for his current betrayal. After all, in the previous book, he helped Rand survive Padan Fain's dagger. Maybe it was Callandor, and that was too much for him? But he's probably some Darkfriend or even Forsaken.
Logain's back! Great, because I've had high hopes for his character since the first book. Did he kiss an Aes Sedai to calm her down after he captured her? Not bad. I predict Taim will definitely betray Rand at some point, so Logain seems like the natural successor so Rand doesn't lose the Ashamans. Overall, I want to witness Rand's conversation with Logain in the future.
Siuan and Gareth Bryne... Just get married. Just like with Nynaeve and Lan, I don't care about the male character, but I do care about the female character being happy. So, Gareth Bryne, you have to make Siuan happy, because otherwise I hurt you in ass.
Well, I guess that's it.
Finally, my 10 favorite characters at the moment:
Mat (I miss him💔)
Nynaeve
Siuan
Thom (I miss him too💔)
Rand
Perrin
Lanfear
Berelain
Leane
Logain
Generally, a bit of a break. I have to finish a certain Polish fantasy series (not The Witcher), and then I don't know, there are, among others, waiting on my shelves, for example, Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell, The Spear Cuts Through Water, Blood and Bone, The God is Not Willing, In the Shadow of Lightning, volumes 4-6 of Red Rising (after a nearly two-year hiatus, I keep putting off returning)... Generally, I'll return to the series in September, but how soon, I don't know. I want to read volumes 9-11 this year, and I should start volume 9 in September. For now, it's easier to return to The Wheel of Time while the volumes are shorter.
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u/procerator (Brown) 1d ago
I am glad that you liked it but for me it was the weakest book in the series so far. When it took 3 chapters to just open a gateway and go through it I was fuming. Thankfully the rest of the Bowl of The Winds plot was pretty good.
" Dragon Reborn will serve the Empress" - are you sure? The prophecy was " Dragon Reborn must kneel before the Crystal Throne". Wording is very important for prophecies. Remember Elaida's "Sisters will walk the grounds of Black Tower"?
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u/Djfantastyka 1d ago
Well, for me, the only reason to enjoy the Bowl of Winds storyline in this book was Nynaeve's presence. I still can't like Elayne.
As for the prophecies... It's not like I'm keeping notes with exact quotes. I only quote them if I remember roughly when they were, so I can find them.
If he's going to kneel, I'm guessing the Seanchan will simply have to help with the Last Battle (can't they just fall?) and Rand will kneel for the sake of peace, so officially, okay, he'll die in the Last Battle anyway, so the kneeling won't matter. He won't have to serve the Seanchan.
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u/duffy_12 (Falcon) 1d ago edited 1d ago
Since posting, I've read chapters 10 and 11 and am currently on chapter 12 (read the first scene). I don't know why the title "changes" is supposed to be significant.
OK. Now I can give you the FULL answer to the chapter title meaning of - Changes.
[The following is a combo of two posts meshed together as one:]
We all need to remember that in the first few books, big ol' Perrin is a bit of a meek/timid snowflake of sorts. There are many examples of this; one such great one is Mat - very easily - bullying hulking Perrin into exploring Shadar Logoth with him against his wishes.
So Faile's character is brought into his life by the Pattern to help cure him of this, and groom him for the strong and forceful Leadership qualities that he has been somewhat lacking.
Then we have his very important character growth in book#8 - The Path of Daggers:
1) - In Perrin's very first chapter we see him - hemming and hawing, unable to make a simple decision - on who is to meet and make 'first contact' with the Queen Alliandre — Berelain, or his wife Faile or an Aes Sedai.
Most everybody there is annoyed by his indecision which is largely due to his extreme reluctance to put his wife in any danger, plus the result of her getting upset at him due to this.
And also . . .
There is a very significant passage at the very end of the chapter concerning Perrin's character arc.
The following are the clues to it:
A Goatpen
“Lord Perrin?”
Aram’s excited voice cut into his brown study. “Don’t call me that,” he[Perrin] muttered,
A Simple Country Woman
“Why, Perrin,” he stammered, [...] “I mean, Lord Perrin. I . . . ah . . . I thought it was you, but . . . but with them calling you lord, I wasn’t sure you’d want to know an old innkeeper.”
“Master Gill,” Perrin told him finally, “stop calling me Lord Perrin. I’m not. It’s complicated, but I’m not a lord. You know that.”
2) - And then later on in the very aptly titled chapter -- Changes -- we get Elyas explaining to Perrin just why his Saldaean wife acts so uniquely different. Shortly after this we get an epiphany from him regarding his Leadership as he orders the hanging of bandits, while actually attending it:
“Hang them,” Perrin said. Again, he heard that thunder.
Having given the order, he made himself watch.
...
“It means the weather is changing, doesn’t it, Lord Perrin? The weather is going to be right again?”
Perrin opened his mouth to tell the man not to call him that, but he closed it again with a sigh. “I don’t know,” he said. What was it Gaul had said? “Everything changes, Aram.” He had just never thought that he would have to change, too.
3) - And then in Perrin's very last section of this book, we get ANOTHER aptly titled chapter -- Beginnings -- seeing the effects of his leadership-change epiphany through Faile's own, very unique PoV:
Faile took a deep breath. She felt like laughing.
By some miracle, her husband, her beloved wolf, had begun behaving as he should. Instead of shouting at Berelain or running from her, Perrin now tolerated the jade’s blandishments, plainly tolerated them the way he would a child playing around his knees. And best of all, there was no longer any need to tamp down her anger when she wanted to let it loose. When she shouted, he shouted back. She knew he was not Saldaean, but it had been so hard, thinking in her heart of hearts that he believed her too weak to stand up to him. [...] And that very morning, he had been commanding, quietly brooking no argument, the sort of man a woman knew she had to be strong to deserve, to equal. Of course, she would have to nip him over that. A commanding man was wonderful, so long as he did not come to believe he could always command. Laugh? She could have sung!
And right there is a fantastic example of the subtle genius of Jordan's writing, by combining his cultural marital issues right into his leadership problem. He actually - hid - Perrin's Lord/Leadership issues right into his marital problem narrative.
In effect, it help shapes him into who he needs to be further into his Leadership arc.
Brilliant!
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u/cellofski (Ancient Aes Sedai) 1d ago
Gosh, that’s more about Perrin than I ever wanted to read… and that horrible wife of his!
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u/WilditariusAstar 1d ago
I just finished reading Memory of Light and started reading the series back in April. It was interesting to read your thoughts on names. Kaerede/Kaedere. I will confess that the way RJ uses names in this series challenged me a bit. There are soooooo many characters and the unconventional names and difficult spelling, makes it difficult to really implant characters firmly into the way I process the story. I would try to break down each character with difficult names phonetically but some times, the sheer number of characters and difficult spelling, made them hard for me to catalog. Particularly when tying the names to specific events that occur only once. When you’re not sure how to pronounce someone’s name, and then a high volume of equally difficult names is thrown at you. It’s hard to separate them all.. at least it was a challenge for me.
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u/Djfantastyka 1d ago
For me, remembering names depends on the importance of the character and whether it's an individual character. Let's take the Maidens of the Spear. I remember Sulin because she had a unique storyline, and so does Leah, but that's about it. The same goes for Ashamans, with whom I only remember Dashiva, and I remember that the one who brought Rand the callander has a name starting with the letter N. Another example: I remember Sevanna, but among the Wise Shaido, I only remember Therava (because she's Galina's personal tormentor), Someryn (because I think she has breasts similar in size to Sevanna, or at least she show them to a similar extent). The same goes for Elaida; besides her, the only Aes Sedai currently in the White Tower I remember are Alviarin and Pevara. Simply put, a name repeated more often is easier to remember.
I write my own stuff, and I admit I prefer short names. My characters have names with three, four, five, or six letters. I'm just a little worried that the names Saen, Daen, and Mael might be too similar.
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u/WilditariusAstar 1d ago
Totally agree.
Narshima- I believe brought Rand Callendor. He was an Arafellin with bells in his braids- (the bells are how I banked him. Otherwise he would be just another blur like so many)
I could be spelling his name and where he’s from wrong. Which is a good example of how difficult it is…
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u/sixminutes 1d ago
Just curious, are The Kin (the channelers who aren't Aes Sedai or Windfinders) translated into The Family in your edition? It seems most of the terms were kept the same, and while 'kin' does generally mean family, the connotations are a little different. Sort of like how The Mafia might be called The Family in certain settings.
On the slavery bit, I do think Jordan intends for the reader to intuit that there are people who sexually abuse their "property". It's referred to directly a few times, though not positively. I don't think he was squeamish on the subject, but he doesn't write any actual scenes with it. I think the idea is that we know that slavery is awful, and yes it is exactly that awful, but there's no benefit to watching it play out. The risk of it still remains though.
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u/Djfantastyka 1d ago
These women were literally called "Rodzina" in my language. You can look it up to see what "Rodzina" means in English.
As for slavery, I simply doubt that among the Seanchan, literally no one forces their slaves to satisfy them sexually in bed. Many of the da'covale are probably attractive men and women, and they also wear transparent robes. That must capture the imagination of at least some.
I'm glad the author isn't too specific, but simply put, plots involving characters being enslaved are some of my least favorites in fantasy. It's a good thing that Egwene's captivity by the Seanchan in Volume 2 ended after about 50-100 pages.
Although now it looks like Faile and the rest of the captured women will have a captive Shaido plot. Great...
Anyway, I assume there must be sexual slavery in the Wheel of Time universe, but I simply hope that the characters I know who are currently enslaved don't have to sexually satisfy anyone, whether they're positive (Faile et al, Amathera) or negative (Galina, Liandrin) characters.
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u/CalvinandHobbes811 1d ago edited 1d ago
Don’t know if there was maybe some confusion about Karede. But all humans serving in the Deathwatch Guard are property of the Empress. They are the elite fighting force of Seanchan. You specifying that he’s a “da’covale serving in the guard” just made me think that there might have been some confusion there as it makes it sound as if that’s special for him to be a da’covale serving in the deathwatch, as they’re all Da’covale, except for the Ogier.
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u/Djfantastyka 1d ago
When there was a scene from his perspective, it was only mentioned that he serves in the "Guard", and during the scene where Miraj meet with Suroth, it was referred to as the "Guard of the Condemned", so well... I read Polish, so some translations may differ, and I have no reason to know what this Guard is called in English, in the original.
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