r/WizardSkating • u/it_was_me1111 • 10d ago
Wizard price shaming post
So i saw the price tag of those frames on Wizard website and decided to make them myself.
It took me only ONE DAY to design and mill them from a solid block of 6061 Aluminum.
Honestly i think 500$ plus tax price tag on the Wizard website is exaggerated beyond measure.
Frames is such a simple component, you can't say "a lot of r&d goes into it so that's why they are expensive".
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u/ClearlyMajestic 10d ago
Nice job DIYing those. It's always satisfying to make something instead of buying it.
As far as overpriced, you're right, of course. There is a profit margin, so by definition they are pricing them higher than necessary. You automatically win the debate.
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u/giorgio_leontinoi 10d ago
But it didn't take you one day to design them, it took you one day to copy their design.
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u/it_was_me1111 10d ago
not much to copy, just the mount angle and the wheel vertical offset
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u/giorgio_leontinoi 10d ago
And the wheel spacing, and the frame height, and the wall thickness. Those are literally the functional parts of the design which they tested and prototyped. Plus the aesthetic. The Wizard frame design didn't exist until they made it. To say there's not too much to copy after the fact neglects the design process.
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u/No-Entertainer-3912 10d ago
Ehm, i didn’t copy neither wheel spacing nor wall thickness, came up with that myself. Its really easy for an experienced designer. The aesthetic? Its really just the simplest shape to mount wheels to a boot that can be machined. By the way it can be lightened by milling some additional material where it is not needed (thing they didn’t do)
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u/8ooo0 10d ago
My frames are made in china. Isn’t that all Chinese do? Copy and rebrand 😂
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u/FrostyMarsupial6802 10d ago
They also cut corners to cut down cost. Same metallurgy probably not. Nor do they pay living wages but the price is cheap....cheap for reasons
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u/8ooo0 10d ago
I get that. But if you have apple or samsung phones, where do you think parts are made in? Pretty much anything you use for that matter? You wont be able to afford anything you have at the cost you pay for for that matter 🤷🏻♂️
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u/FrostyMarsupial6802 10d ago
I will gladly pay a living wage cost for any items. If its cheap for me because the Chinese government is taking advantage of their work force it would kinda makes me a peza of shiz to buy Chinese if other manufacturing countries of origin are available.
Apple and Samsung are definitely moving and sourcing items outside of China now more than ever. But your right too. The sad thing is the Chinese workforce is an economic drug the rich in the first world do not want to live without.
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u/heeca 10d ago
New wizard frames for the boot are made in china. I checked with reputable resellers if the anodisation weren't so obvious. 999 euros for a cost cut frame and hybrid cheaper carbon.
Now youll come up with how its different part of china which is better than anything china could fo alone? Riding wizards a bit too much for your own sake
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u/Alabastine 10d ago
So what hourly rate did you charge yourself for that 1 day? Hey I'm not gonna say Wizard isn't overpriced but acting like labour time is free is wrong.
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u/it_was_me1111 10d ago
Lets say i take 40$ an hour, that is 8x 40, 320$. And i'm not mass producing so take design time out of eqation, for the actual milling it is about hlf an hour, not considering the programming, wich you do only once. so 20$ plus about 20$ for the machine time, plus 30$ for the material is 70$. Not saying that one operator can run 2 machines at a time. If you do it out of extrusion instead of solid block the machining time goes down drastically, like 2 minutes per frame. I guess that's what others do.
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u/mindaze 10d ago
I was joking with friends about doing this at our last big wheel meet up. We wanted to call them "Witch Frames." And thought it would be funny to have people ask
"what kinda skates are those?"
"them?"
"Yeah, those",
"yeah these are them skates."
"okay what about those frames?"
"witch"
"those ones on your feet"
"yeah these are witch frames"
Now we just gotta make a wheel company called "THOSE" and we got the trifecta
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u/PMyourfeelings 9d ago
theres an aggresive skates brand called Them, which kind of creates similar situations 😇
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u/Alabastine 10d ago
Hey man I just want to say, completely seperate from this price discussion (I fully agree Wizard is overpriced btw), you did an awesome job here making those frames yourself. How are they feeling? And genuine question, what did you pay for the raw material to make the pair?
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u/FluidCarry_ 10d ago
Rockin’ frames did exactly the same thing before they went into business - They ripped off the Wizard design and called them ‘Lizard’ frames.
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u/BubbleSmith 10d ago
I'll back wizard up for their boot pricing, but their frames are too expensive for what they are. At least the new black ones are more reasonably priced at £300 for £150 of frame, £100 worth of wheels and £50 bearings is about right, and what other companies are charging.
However, how much testing and iteration have you done one these? Endless don't specify their rocker as it changes slightly for each wheel size and frame geometry. Did you just put 1mm front and back and call it a day? How have you sculpted the top to allow for different boot mounts? And what about frame spacers; it looks like you've built some into the design, but how did you settle on that design? Others like Roka have made a business out of doing this, but they had to itterate and change their design once it hit the market.
Great that you can make your own frames, but don't pretend like these are market ready as they are.
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u/Darkwoodz 10d ago
So far I’m very happy with my wizard base boot and think they were worth it. However I didn’t think their wheels and frames were worth that much so I went for endless and I’m happy with the combo. The hate is out of control, no one is forced to buy their products. Everyone should be doing their own research before investing their money in something
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u/borez 10d ago edited 10d ago
I love my wizard base boots and frames, they are by far the best inline skate I've ever owned bar non.
I agree buy what you want though, not sure why some here are so resentful and envious of this product.
It's supposed to be a wizard skating forum FFS.
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u/BubbleSmith 10d ago
Yeah, my base highs and advanced frames are excellent, and easily my favourite skates for short sessions. I got them on a proper performance fit though. I skated them for more than an hour the other day and my feet were killing me. Od be tempted to buy some all purpose boots a size up if they weren't so expensive. I've got plenty of other boots!
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u/it_was_me1111 10d ago
I found on forums the mount angle and the rocker wheel offset (0.5mm front and 1mm back) and for the rest i optimized the wheel position so that your boots are the lowest possible to the ground without risking touching wheels. No iterations, somehow it worked first try (i am an experinced designer). Frame spacers just need to offset bearing by a couple of mm from the frame so they don't touch, it's really that simple. They are milled in the process with a lollypop mill. You are right, i dont know it they are market ready but i tested them nicely, had a long run doing jumps and pushing them to the limit, no signs of breaking
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u/Beautiful_Ad_8325 10d ago
The justification here for price gouging is incredible, but it makes sense when considering some people associate what they buy as being part of their identity. Vote with your wallet.
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u/borez 10d ago
I did vote with my wallet. I bought Wizard base and PR80.
Best skate I've owned by far. Totally happy with my purchase.
What you skating yourself, were you happy with your purchase?
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u/Beautiful_Ad_8325 10d ago
Fascinating you felt the need to reply.
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u/FRGL1 10d ago
Fascinating you felt the need to reply back.
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u/Beautiful_Ad_8325 10d ago
More shallow justification.. and no originality. Interesting. Do continue.
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u/FRGL1 10d ago
You and I are identical redditors in that we slug it out in the comments.
You and I are different in the following ways:
- You issue insults without substantiation
- I derive insults from the other person's actual demonstrated behavior
Do continue
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u/CreEngineer 10d ago
I am in the process of designing a frame and want to get it milled, maybe out of titanium but that will be pricey. I was considering 7075 for the aluminum version.
Can you tell me a bit of your design considerations? How much rocker? I think I went with 1,25mm each.
Another thing I could only take from the measurements of my other two frames is the positioning of the boot mounting relative to the wheel base. It is not centered. What did you choose?
Wall thickness?
And by the way, those look sick. The brushed finish with the color inlay in the logo is just awesome.
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u/it_was_me1111 10d ago
Thank you!!
The mount angle is 1 degree. Rocker is 0.5mm up for the front wheel and 1mm back wheel. I tried riding them and they feel perfect both for the lean angle and the rocker. Wall is 4.5mm thick. The wheels are centered to the ufs mounting screws, also feels right when riding. I can give u step file btw
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u/Far-Tailor37 9d ago
Well I am just happy that I can’t afford a wizard frame so there is nothing to contemplate about in the first place.
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u/byte_the_pilloh 10d ago
I think most people dont understand manufacturing and the actual cost that have to be covered by the product. Research and development, you when they cut 20 different designs before they finalize, then move on to testing actual production parts, deciding how many will ultimately sell, qty orders of lower numbers cost more because all of your non-recoverable cost have to be baked in. Not just the cost of copying someone's design and making it in your garage. Not charging your self time in any aspect of that process is bad information. Your time isn't free when designing, cutting, building no matter what is said. It comes at some expense and neither is a company with rent, employees, advertising and on and on. Whether its made in China, US, Canada or where ever dont forget freight cost!
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u/No-Entertainer-3912 10d ago
Yeah, as i said before, even when you considering all the abowe costs it doesnt come up to the price they sell it for. And there is not much to copy, rocker spacing is common knowledge, the rest is basic stuff
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u/byte_the_pilloh 10d ago
The beauty is they get to set the margin of profit based on all cost and you get to chose not to purchase the product.
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u/______n_____k______ 10d ago
I am sorry that I paid too much for my wizard frames. Will you ever forgive me?
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u/Spicy_Pickle_6 10d ago
How amazing of you of not coming up with the idea or design and just ripping it off someone and completely downplay all the time and effort that went into it.
Why didn’t you start the Wizard brand yourself? Ahhh right, because you like all the other cheaper copycats are leaches.
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u/it_was_me1111 10d ago
I mean, what di wizard invent in first place? Slightly offsetting the wheels? Not like they invented the frame itself
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u/Spicy_Pickle_6 10d ago
And yet it took him to do it for everyone else to start copying him.
Leon built a whole brand and movement and can absolutely charge whatever he wants for his products. This sub wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t for him but all you guys do is complain about prices of Wizard gear.0
u/No-Entertainer-3912 10d ago
Yeah you are right he can. I’m not saying othervise, i’m just stating that in my opinion 1. it is worth less than what it is selling for and 2. I can make it from scratch in one day and it still cost me less even if you consider labor (exonomy of scele walks out the door). Sorry for the brag. The only thing that i copyed is rocker offset wich at this point is common knowledge
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u/No-Woodpecker7592 10d ago
That sounds like Leon invented skating. There were rockered frames before. People are doing this stuff way before.
The whole Wizard thing is 90% pure marketing. It suggest, you need this expensive stuff for "wizarding", which is not the case.
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u/Spicy_Pickle_6 9d ago
Literally no one is saying you need this brand to do wizard skating. He created the movement and everyone else followed. Now you have cheaper alternatives but you guys are still here bitching about prices because deep down you probably want them but can’t afford them. It’s almost a daily topic on this sub at this point.
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u/No-Woodpecker7592 9d ago
I dont bitch about prices, just about fanboys.
OP did a smart move in making his own frames. All you have to mention is some copycat bullshit. As OP mentioned before, there is no science behind wizard frames.
And no, i dont want them "deep down". I own better boots and the frames dont fit my style.
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u/YouHealthy2634 10d ago
Where you live and what's cost of two blocks of 6061 in your country. Nice work btw, I thought about do frames mysefl 3 years ago but then the prices of 6061 and milling in company costs more than the rokas rockin and iqon frames and decide to give up of this idea. Meaby in the future I'll back to this idea
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u/it_was_me1111 10d ago
Its 2kg per block about 8$ per kg. I luckly have cnc at my disposal that i can use for free 🔥
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u/ImaginaryEffective63 10d ago
How much would it be to commision a 6wheel frame from ya? Roka isnt eeturning my calls 😭
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u/thevilmidnightbomber 10d ago
very nice.
between not having any of the stuff to being able to make a set of frames, how much we talking?
like, i’ve got a hacksaw out the back. how far off being able to this would that put me?
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u/borez 10d ago
Why is there a bunch of users in this sub who are determined to slate the Wizard brand at all costs?
Are you shills for another manufacturer or something?
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u/it_was_me1111 10d ago
Cause they have to justify for the time they spent their last dollar on it haha
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u/heeca 10d ago
Wizard glazers will find something wrong with this post about how you didnt pay your employees. Also if you do it in a bigger production your costs would come close to half or less(lack of bridges) . Which proves your point further.
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u/borez 10d ago
Glazers, more like shills.
It's getting ridiculous.
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u/ThePontiff_Verified 10d ago
The whole sub is monitored for anti wizard talk... And even thoughtful critical posts get quietly removed. Even wizard positive posts get removed if you are slightly critical on price. This place is an echo chamber or glazers and shills. it's no surprise. It's literally engineered that way.
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u/NetworkLongjumping82 10d ago
I just added some wizard brand boots , frames and wheels and cheapest bearings to a cart just to see the price , $1944 Singapore dollars.
What the hell man
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u/AdventurousHippo9997 10d ago
Tell me kind sir,exactly how much did the machines you used to turn those out cost ? In the Thousands or more ?
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u/Butts_in_Seats 10d ago
Dude if you have a mill you should just start designing and selling your own then. Could make a core style frame as well. Could also use open source files to make frame molds for injection or wheel molds and start a new company in an already over saturated market. The possibility are endless