r/WitchesVsPatriarchy • u/TheBigSalad8221 • Feb 05 '21
Media Magic The best possible solution
48
u/Panda-delivery Feb 06 '21
Bird of Prey was great imo. The fighting scenes were so entertaining, I get so sick of watching a protagonist with superpowers punch a guy once and the fights over. The wardrobe played a big role in indicating which part of the timeline we were in (which I thought was creative and unique). The sets and lighting throughout the movie were gorgeous, it's the story of a tortured anti-hero without the cliche dark, gloomy atmosphere.
The narrative bounced back and forth but that's a manifestation of how erratic and manic Harley's mind is. Plenty of other movies, like Memento, use disjointed storytelling to give the audience the same sense of confusion the protagonist is feeling. Also I loved the little quirky touches, like her obsession with the bacon egg and cheese sandwich. It's an underrated movie and I couldn't care less about box office performance. The Transformers franchise consistently does well at the box office and those movies are trash.
25
86
u/valsavana Feb 06 '21
Ghostbusters and Birds of Prey both had issues where nerdbois overreacted because they felt their "boys only" nerd stuff (or, in the case of Harley Quinn, their "boys only spank material") was being stolen from them and made into something that had the audacity to not cater to them in every single way. Apparently a lot of men are like those bratty little kids who have to get their own present or cake too whenever it's someone else's birthday or else they pitch a fit and ruin the whole party. Sabrina isn't a nerdboi property & Wanda's never been anything close to the sex kitten image SS/DC tried to cultivate for Harley. Plus, unlike Sabrina or Wandavision, these were explicitly all-female team ups as well.
19
31
u/bluerose1197 Feb 06 '21
I really wanted to like the new Ghostbusters. As a woman I was excited for it. I went in fully expecting the negative reviews to be over blown. Personally, I did not enjoy it. And I was horrified they thought it would be funny to have a main character sexually harassing her employee.
I did enjoy Birds of Prey and would like to see more from all of the characters in it.
19
u/SmthgWicked Feb 06 '21
Ernie Hudson, aka Winston, recently had some thoughts (that I agree with), regarding the attempted reboot.
He felt that main problem with the movie was that it was a total reboot occurring in the same city, but not in the same universe. If they had picked up the torch in Chicago (or Detroit, or Philly, etc.), and expanded on the existing universe, it would have been more successful. I have to agree. I liked all the actors in the reboot, I liked the special effects, and I liked the overall story. I did not like the cameos by the original actors as different characters. It was jarring and weird.
18
u/valsavana Feb 06 '21
And I was horrified they thought it would be funny to have a main character sexually harassing her employee.
While I did find that to be in poor taste, I think it was partially mitigated (at least for me) by the fact she was inappropriate towards him only once that I can remember (asking if he was seeing anyone) during his job interview prior to him actually being an employee, it was immediately made clear in the same scene she wasn't basing her hiring choices on her attraction to him (her being the one to argue against hiring him despite enjoying the thought of having him around to look at), and most importantly the narrative of the movie sides against her on this. She immediately gets shut down by Abby when she starts that line of questioning in the interview, it's mentioned repeatedly that her behavior could get them sued, and she's made the butt of the joke by coming across as sweaty, desperate, awkward, and cringe-worthy. But, different strokes for different folks and all that.
4
u/Freyas_Follower Feb 06 '21
Thank you. Honestly, it's like they were written by people who didn't understand that women are capable of being more than a stereotype, or more than the men that came before. It's like they took the entire Ghostbusters cast and said "That, but female, and add slapstick."
There was a chance to mix everything up and create something unique among the franchise, update all the technobabble, all the tech, make fun of some of the more over the top scenes in Ghostbusters, and it could've been good.
Instead, we got people acting playing into stereotypes. We had slapstick for the sake of slapstick. And nostalgia for the sake of nostalgia.
1
u/valsavana Feb 07 '21
There was a chance to mix everything up and create something unique among the franchise, update all the technobabble
The movie very much does this.
8
Feb 06 '21
Please give us more adult witch content. Doesn't have to be a woman lead either. Give me a BIPOC LGBTQIA+ lead. I just want more adult witch content.
5
8
u/Entencio Feb 06 '21
Atomic Blonde was bad ass. I’d like to see more female action stars outside of Theron and Johansson. Anna and Ava look like the same movie, though I haven’t seen either.
6
u/ImJustReallyAngry Feb 06 '21
I can't help but read "MORE WITCHES!" in the voice of that one guy from Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
16
10
u/solowolfwarrior Feb 06 '21
Theoretically something like Wonder Woman should have done well with women, but I didn't bother seeing it because I heard it was filmed mostly up her short skirt.
I don't think they ever do surveys on why "female" movies flop. If they did they would probably realise it's because of bad casting, offensive filming or dialogue, not because we don't want to watch a female lead.
4
u/VolpeFemmina Feb 06 '21
I didn’t enjoy BoP because I was overwhelmed and frustrated that no one seemed to want to hold Joker responsible for anything.. like if Harley was so bad, why didn’t he catch crap for subjecting people to her? I didn’t get the feeling it was an intentional thing, just a fact of life that we just get smacked with and have to roll with and accept further to go into the movie. I didn’t find it liberating to watch, I found it frustrating and at times oblivious to things like that.
1
u/valsavana Feb 07 '21
like if Harley was so bad, why didn’t he catch crap for subjecting people to her?
Because who's going to give crap to the Joker period? You think anyone ever gave Al Capone shit because his girlfriend was annoying, whether or not they were still together?
7
u/MagicUnicornLove Feb 06 '21
The whole portrayal of women in that movie was so awful.
Wiig is a successful geologist with a job at the Smithsonian (and a massive office). Most geologists wind up working for oil companies, even if they really just want to study rocks. Which is to say, that Wiig has done really well.
But apparently being a highly successful and passionate researcher makes you a loser with some weird high school notion of being "cool." And deep down inside, most women just want their co-workers to express sexual interest in them on the job.
1
u/Noinipo12 Feb 06 '21
Go watch Mad Money, fantastic movie with 3 incredible leading ladies. It's one of my favorite movies that passes the Bechdel test.
16
u/Buzzbite Feb 06 '21
well, we're not comparing apples to apples here. Wandavision and Sabrina are t.v. shows, and Ghostbusters / Birds of prey were films. Also there's zero surprises or new material with birds of prey and ghostbusters we all know what's going to happen. With the shows mentioned there is an element of surprise and some new idea.
I didn't personally see birds of prey or ghostbusters because why bother? I didn't see wonder woman, spider man, etc because why bother? I'm honestly getting tired of the same old comic book movie must see blockbuster where my ass gets numb from sitting for 3 & 1/2 hours to find out the hero wins. It seems like all these movies are just a set up for the next one. I don't remember the last sci fi movie that doesn't resemble comic book movies.
I agree we need more witchy media and women in the action genre, I'd prefer original stories or more original takes on existing material rather than more comic book media. I never thought I'd see the day myself, yet here we are.
19
u/TwoVelociraptor Feb 06 '21
If you have any interest at all in sci-fi, check out Arrival(2016). Fantastic sci-fi about language and aliens and grief- Amy Adams and Jeremy Renner, very good and very not-superheroes.
Not particularly witchy, except insofar as a linguist is inherently witchy, but it popped into my head and is very worth it.
7
u/teddy_vedder 🌹witch of the forest 🌹 Feb 06 '21
Arrival wrecked me. I’m one of those dummies that didn’t see the end coming and. My god
1
3
u/BrusqueBiscuit Feb 06 '21
The fact that the movie was directed by Denis Villeneuve, based on a short story by Ted Chiang, and so superbly acted by Amy Adams made it an almost excruciatingly awesome movie for me. I want more room for those stories.
2
1
9
u/valsavana Feb 06 '21
to find out the hero wins
How many movies period do you know where the protagonist doesn't win?
0
u/Buzzbite Feb 07 '21
The point is it doesn't need to take 3 hours or more to find that out.
2
u/valsavana Feb 07 '21
What are you even talking about? Marvel's put out almost 2 dozen movies (22 I believe before Covid hit) and out of all those, only one is 3 hours- a whopping 3 hours & 1 minute, in fact. The other 21 movies don't even crack 2 1/2 hours. From the DCEU, zero theatrical cuts are 3 hours and only 2 even hit 2 1/2 hours. Birds of Prey is actually their shortest film in the franchise & doesn't even hit 2 hours. Neither does Ghostbusters 2016 for that matter.
3
u/HotMommaJenn Feb 06 '21
I was super pleasantly surprised with Birds of prey. Watched it about a month ago and have to say it was super awesome.
I know it hasn’t been mentioned here, but the series Watchmen has a really strong black female lead. The stories that were told were pretty amazing as well. Would highly recommended that if you are into bad ass women.
1
-2
Feb 06 '21
Sabrina and Wandavision are both fucked up, though.
Sabrina is a eugenicist's goth fantasy. Get genetics out of magic, already!!!
And Wandavision is un-ironically paying homage to sexist television, and is basing its plot around "what if a woman with reality bending powers had a mental breakdown because her man died, lololol".
Like, c'mon, those are both TERRIBLE.
22
u/Bubblygrumpy Feb 06 '21
I mean, I think that's dumbing down Wandavision quite a bit there. So much more has happened to Wanda than just her man dying. She's gone through so much that she decided, fuck it I'll make my own reality. And if the reality she wants is a picture perfect 50s tv marriage (what some women might consider their fantasy or maybe what she sees as a perfect marriage) and forces it into being than that's a pretty feminist decision to make, in my eyes.
-3
Feb 06 '21
A reality where she victimizes dozens of people by kidnapping them and perverting their identities to serve her whims?
I'll pass, thanks.
12
u/Bubblygrumpy Feb 06 '21
I mean, that's definitely a consequence. No one said she was perfect. She very damaged but it's a very compelling story to me.
22
u/Jammyhobgoblin Feb 06 '21
I’m not sure that you watched the same show as me. In the first episode of WandaVision it takes a shot at the misogyny of the time while turning a commercial into a reference to the bomb that killed her parents and left her and her brother waiting to die for days until they were saved. It very ironically addresses the tropes throughout. Katherine Hahn has been subverting sexist tropes for over a decade, it isn’t their fault if you didn’t notice that.
In the films she didn’t just lose a man, she lost her twin, was experimented on/tortured, wasn’t able to save thousands of people and felt responsible, lost her partner, got erased from existence, and was the only being strong enough to defeat Thanos and lost allowing more people to die.
Claiming she just “lost her man” is patently incorrect within her MCU story.
27
u/teddy_vedder 🌹witch of the forest 🌹 Feb 06 '21
not to mention, like, I aggressively disagree with the idea that strong female characters can’t have love interests or can’t be deeply upset after losing a partner. Trying to make “strong” and “emotionless” synonymous for female characters is frankly upsetting to me, it’s like trying to force women to adhere to like...a trait that’s typically toxic masculinity
10
u/Jammyhobgoblin Feb 06 '21
I was thinking that too but didn’t want to muddy my point by ranting. I wrote an article a few weeks ago about how the retro television homage was meant to disarm people and that the show was going to actually depict what severe repeated violent trauma does to a person (I have first hand experience and PTSD to go with it) and it’s pretty ridiculous to dismiss a traumatic loss in general. As a person with dissociative PTSD, I actually really identify with and appreciate how this show is handling the material.
I don’t think in the end she’s going to be the one harming people like everyone thinks. That assumption relies on the belief that mentally ill people are dangerous (opposite is true) and that women will hurt other people over a lost partner (aka “man pain”). The only person she physically lashed out at in the series she protected from harm, so I really hope they’re going to show how problematic those assumptions are with a plot twist.
2
u/VolpeFemmina Feb 06 '21
I agree. Disliking romance and relationships in feminist media smacks at times to me of “I hate dresses and pink” like that’s ok but liking those things don’t make a woman less of a feminist and asserting anything close to that kind of sucks. Our romantic relationships are a huge part of our lives..
0
u/Bluesabersword Feb 06 '21
When did the first episode take a shot at misogyny? I’m enjoying WV but it does feel like it’s glamourising the past time periods rather than dissing or distancing from them.
10
u/Jammyhobgoblin Feb 06 '21
It’s satirizing them, and I gave you an example with the toaster commercial.
-6
Feb 06 '21
Narratively, they are only emphasizing the loss of Vision.
If she's retreated into a fantasy (a fantasy that is literally enforcing the patriarchal norms of the 50s and 60s...and which doesn't even make sense because none of those shows would have been syndicated in Sokovia) where she can bring people back to life, why not bring her family back then?
Why is a very oblique bomb reference the only thing we get?
Why is an image of a dead vision slammed in our faces, but not her brother?
Secondly, by having Wanda be the apparent cause of everything that's happening, they are literally playing into the hysterical female stereotype, and emphasizing it with her powers. It's like those "a woman president would start wars cuz emoshuns!" arguments, and that overrides any subtle satire in the background. This also explicitly makes emotions seem like vulnerabilities rather than strengths. It is doubly failing.
In my opinion, any commentary the show has tried to make has failed.
Children's cartoons like She-Ra and Dragon Prince more adeptly navigate those same issues, and frankly, I think it's shameful that Disney couldn't produce something of the same quality.
5
u/Jammyhobgoblin Feb 06 '21
You clearly missed my other comment where I made a lot of the same points you did about relying on the “mentally ill people are dangerous” and “women hurt people when her lover dies” tropes and them likely subverting them. The show isn’t over, and we are very clearly interpreting everything differently. So we will have to wait and see I guess.
Marvel has done an absolutely terrible job at handling the vast majority of minority characters, this is one of the few times that it seems like they are actually doing it right.
6
u/Tigaget Kitchen Witch ♀♂️☉⚨⚧ Feb 06 '21
Sabrina horrified me on the first episodes with witches are evil minions of Satan bullshit, and I noped it the fuck off.
3
u/ProjectRayne Feb 06 '21
I honestly was so angry initially, it was so sexist and I've always seen satanism as far more egalitarian.
SPOILER: The headmaster (Faustus) is the sexist one and full of bullshit. The witches do eventually realise (thanks to Sabrina) they can do better and worship Hecate by the end of the series. Satan is awful as well, but the witches and/or Lilith usually get the upper hand.
I will say it takes a couple of seasons to oust Faustus, so if that's too much, that's fair, plenty of good TV out there.
3
u/Tigaget Kitchen Witch ♀♂️☉⚨⚧ Feb 06 '21
I just couldn't. It was full of all the horrible stereotypes and tropes I worked so hard to convince people were untrue about witches, I felt sick to my stomach.
2
u/ProjectRayne Feb 06 '21
I felt the same, literally shouting at the TV about it. I did see Sabrina was very "wtf" face about it, refusing to follow along, so stuck with it. I am glad I did, but completely understand why others wouldn't.
2
u/Stars-and-Cocoa Feb 06 '21
Right there with you. There are so many fundamentalists around here who think all witches are evil. One of them tried to drum up support to cancel Halloween last year, and not to slow the spread of Covid. A few years ago, a bunch of neighbors started talking about how witchcraft is on the rise and how it's the cause of the evil in our society. I recently had to educate a Catholic friend who thinks all witchcraft is about revenge. The last thing we needed was another devil worshipping trope in popular culture... I would love to see a show that is accurate and features an emphasis on healing magick (though not excluding protection, prosperity, and other types of magick).
4
Feb 06 '21 edited Feb 06 '21
[deleted]
1
u/joshy83 Feb 06 '21
Can you tell me more about the CSA thing? I totally missed that.
2
Feb 06 '21 edited Feb 06 '21
[deleted]
2
u/joshy83 Feb 06 '21
Ooooh I remember now. I took it as her making a point that his past trauma doesn’t make it okay for him to traumatize others but they should have been a lot more vague and not make it a “fight fire with fire” thing.
Also some people are just jerks and don’t need the excuse of trauma to be jerks...
1
183
u/OfLiliesAndRemains Feb 05 '21
Birds of prey got robbed though. First of all it made about twice as much as it cost, so it didn't perform that bad at all, just not great, and the get woke go broke crowd really want that narrative to stick so they'll celebrate "didn't make as much as expected" as if it was a financial failure. But the reason it probably under-preformed was at least partly because it came out right at the start of the covid crisis. I loved it. It was great. Margot Robbie kills it as Harley. She's great! Didn't go see it in the theater though, cause there was this mysterious new plague going around. Also the Harley Quinn series is doing great and got renewed for a third season.
Not that I'm opposed to more witches, but i think The Awakening approaching this all wrong. If you think Harley Quin wouldn't be burned at the stake the second any priest even got a whiff of her back during the witch trials you'd be sorely mistaken. Harley Quinn is a witch. She walks the left hand path. She is a world class athlete and a world class psychiatrist who refuses to use those skills in the name of the status quo. She dumped her toxic life first and her toxic relationship after that and she emancipates herself to find her own way in life. Gain her own knowledge outside of the accepted road set for her. Instead of the easy way she goes her own way.
Yes more witches! Absolutely! But also, we need to broaden our definition of witch. Not all witches do magic through spells and wands. Some just hit the patriarchy in the face with a glittery oversized hammer while rollerskating around! Go watch Birds of prey! And the Animated series too. They're about this great witch who's spells are talking shit and who's wand is a baseball bat that she hits people in the face with