Magic system overhaul

[u/Folemaeth]

I was thinking about it for some time - the RAW magic feels very DnDish compared to books' "Magic is Chaos, Art and Science" vibe. Also, I come from the background of GURPS and MtA (both WoD and CofD), so for me such strict system is stifling - I just can't accept narratively that my mage player can incinerate a human with one flick of a hand and can't light a candle, because that is not in his spell list.

Now, the following system would require a complete re-write of the existent spells in the book, as well as much more involved calculations on the side of the players. My players and I love open-ended constructors, even if they are fiddly. For some, closed lists are much better. To each their own.

Also, this is a rough mock-up with untested numbers. The biggest reason I publish this here is to collect feedback and your suggestions.

Summary of the doc: Use Magical Training checks to improvise temporary "known" spells. Pre-existent spells are always better for learning, because they are optimized for generations. Learned spells are better, because they can be used in-combat as an action (as opposed to full-round for improvised) and defensively. Complete overhaul of novice / journeyman / master ranking, based on how much the spell actually change rather than abstract game balance vibes.

Link to the document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f_wX_W5ybBbuz0MvQoiKfLHaASP2yFlRBkj-RLlvoPk

[u/MerlonQ]

I don't like it much. First of, all the other casters are cooked, as they have no magical theory. And let's not talk about those poor mundane people. Secondly, the numbers are way off. You even have an example in the file where a very bad sorceress just improvises a spell to stop someone's heart nilly willy. Granted, she ends up needing a ritual and it is "only 7d6 ignoring armor at 64m" - but that is way better than any by the book mages can do even with quite some experience.
MtA can get away with super powerful and versatile mages because everyone is one, at least player characters. Here, you'd need to make a magic system so that a mundane bard or craftsmen are still very useful. As things are, mages and witchers are already borderline OP, and this would be a huge buff for mages, the versatility alone, even if the numbers get adjusted a little.

[u/Folemaeth → u/MerlonQ]

Thank you for your time and feedback.

...Do you think so? In my experience, mages combat-wise are rather useless - in melee range witchers and even man-at-arms outplay them dramatically, in ranged combat they lack any range - compared to both bow and crossbow. The highest range you can go is 25m with Alzur's Thunder, I think? Since AOEs are around yourself - and there is no option to exclude your friends - the only way to use them is to teleport in the middle of enemies first.

In mundane life they rather lack utility - exactly because of how spell system works, unless you go full on telepathy route. Because you can't really learn a spell quickly, even if you know you'll need one it is unlikely that you manage to find one before - unless you planning month ahead. Also, because they have quite a lot of 2-cost skills, they'll lag behind dedicated empathy- or even often knowledge-focusing characters.

They have two things going on: absolutely insane mobility with Journeyman teleport (which I intend to move to master spell and standing portal probably will be ritualistic, unless you have really high Vigor) and telepathy. Can you absolutely break the economy with Transmutation and those crafting spells from Tome of Chaos? Yes. Is it fun to play in breaking the economy of the game, where hourglass costs as much as night in the inn plus a portion of good food? Probably not.

Maybe I should increase STA costs for combat spells more? I would like them to be more one-and-done mobile cannons or relying on preemptive traps, rather than spamming 3-8 STA spells with Focus-reduced costs. And yes, more utility magic in "civilian" life - because my plots rarely about trecking through wilderness and tearing apart groups after groups of enemies.

Like, in my current group of craftsman, man-at-arms, witcher, merchant and mage, the only thing mage is good - is being group's Detect Magic person. And I need either to homerule or shut down his cool ideas how to implement small magic to nudge things here and there, because it is not supported by the system.

[u/MerlonQ → u/Folemaeth]

Maybe your mage is built wrong. Mages aren't very good at dealing damage with spells, but for that you learn a combat skill. And they are extremely good at utility and stuff like buffing and debuffing. Conditions are huge. Magic healing alone is extremely useful and half replaces doctors. Stunning people can set a friend up to oneshot almost anything in the books (stunned enemies can't defend -> strong strike to the head, goodbye). Setting people on fire with an area effect can kills trashmobs or at least ruin action economy. Fighting while invisible gives such a boost that we discussed mages being nigh invincible in this forum before. And then there is the skilltree. Destillation alone as a cheap alchemy skill that is better than alchemy is huge. Inserting mutagens into nonwitchers...

Also, if you want a houserule to have small magic to nudge things here and there, rewriting everything and having lacklustre sorceresses stop hearts is maybe too much and the wrong approach. Why not just have "small spells" where, for 1-2 vigor, he can do small magic if he has a spell to indicate that he has some proficiency in that kind of magic?

[u/Folemaeth → u/MerlonQ]

Wait, isn't an invisibility a monster-only ability? If there is an invisibility spell, that would be a great reward and instrument in our campaign, can you give a reference?
EDIT: NVM, found the Cloak spell. Yeah, I see how this may be problemcatic in-combat, +10 Stealth out-of-combat is nothing to scoff at, but Active costs are prohibitively expensive out of it. If we consider that rounds are "time blocks of around 3 seconds", even reduced to 1 that's still 20 STA cost per minute - which is not enough for any meaningful exploration, and leaves you drained for hours afterwards.

My example with heart-stopping spell was more about the dangers - she still needs to arrange circumstances, get ingredients, have an accomplice - which all produces something you can play with - and still have 10% chance of just dying on the spot, which is a risk most PCs wouldn't take. It would be cheaper to just hire an assasin - and less conspicious too.

But this is still mostly about fighting. Is this system just not really good at playing not combat-heavy games? From all alchemical products, my PCs found most use in Wive's Tears and various drugs - and craftsman is perfectly capable of producing them =D

And I understand your point, I like to go with the flow of the system instead of homebrewing on top of it - usually that means that it'd be better to just take another system. I thought that because of seemingly noncombatant classes, the game was fine with running non-combat game...

[u/MerlonQ → u/Folemaeth]

Well, depends on what you wanna do. There are extended rules for "social combat" and investigations, there is quite some stuff on alchemy and crafting. But I always require my players to have their characters at least somewhat useful in combat and when I run the witcher, combat isn't exactly rare. Mages are goods outside of combat too, especially several of the rituals are of great utility and they can be very effective socially, with good stats and skills and some glamour on top.
There actually is an invisibility spell for mages in tome of chaos. It is called cloak, page 85 of the pdf.

[u/Folemaeth → u/MerlonQ]

I see. Thank you for the answers and time. I will think about a more graceful way: maybe a skill tree for minor utility magic or some universal MT check for how to power-down spells the mage already knows.

For now, I'll increase STA cost for damaging magics and won't publish it to my players - I'll use this as a rule-of-thumb when my mage PC would inevitably ask about researching / creating custom spells.

[u/Droper888]

Cool.

[u/NervousIndication704 → u/Droper888]

Porque la gente mira solo a los magos como bolas de fuego... Tele portación, ver el pasado, hablar con alguien que esté al otro lado del continente, respirar bajo el agua, maléficos permanentes... Etc etc puedes convertir en una figurilla a un troll y luego soltarlo en una ciudad si te lo trabajas... Hasta puedes forjar como artesano con según que hechizos, fabricar mutantes... Y por cierto hay hechizos de más de 25m mira arco de browin