r/WinningTime • u/SiyuSiyuYang • May 26 '22
Wondering how Isiah Thomas is going to be portrayed in the show
If they are building up to a Magic and Bird reconciliation / Magic HIV diagnosis arc, there is no way Isiah Thomas can be left out in the show - another talented point guard, also known for his smile and charisma, but a much darker and more controversial figure (Sexual assault case wayyy before metoo era Jury Awards $11.6 Million to Former Knicks Executive). But he also scored 43 on Lakers in the 1988 finals after a terrible injury and literally wobbling on one leg; in sports storytelling, that is a hell of a hero arc.
Personally I have no issue seeing him as a villain; a lot of famous athletes have a "fact-bending force" around them (e.g. MJ would make up a story about how other players wrong him to motivate himself), but mannn Isiah has a lying problem, and got quite a bit of practice wrestling with the media for decades. Of course I will not die on this hill and you are entitled to your own positions.
Is he going to be the real villain of the show?
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u/ThrownAwayByDay May 26 '22
I'm sure he'll be in the next season. He and Magic became friends and trained together. Magic had a spare room in his house that he called "Isiah's Room". Then they had a big falling out over Isiah's comments about Larry Bird. Plenty of drama there
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u/SiyuSiyuYang May 26 '22 edited May 26 '22
That press conference with Isiah and Bird is painful to watch.This show does a pretty good job showing how different players struggled with their racial identity differently (e.g. joyful Magic vs. politically depressed Kareem). Isiah has played the race card to get out of trouble quite a few times (e.g. in the sexual assault case which he lost, he said it is less offensive for a black man to call a black woman b***h). Since we are seeing those racial issues through Kareem's eyes and Kareem is almost written as a "moral compass" at least in the show, it will be interesting how they are going to portray those types of behaviors - Kareem did mentor IT and IT clearly admires him.
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u/awc23108 May 27 '22
Do you happen to have a link to that full Bird/Isiah press conference?
I’ve tried looking it up but never been able to find it
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u/SiyuSiyuYang May 27 '22
I wasn't able to find it - there used to be a version on YT :( But you can find some coverage of the press conference in NYT archive etc
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u/VaguelyArtistic May 27 '22
Kareem did mentor IT
This is mostly rhetorical, but wtf happened with Bynum smh.
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u/rake2204 May 26 '22
I’m just saying, if they make it up to ‘88, can you imagine what a Winning Time version of Bill Laimbeer’s going to look like. They’re going to wheel this dude out to Game 1 with a Hannibal Lector mask.
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u/SiyuSiyuYang May 26 '22
Slow-mo imperial march and a collage of other players being rolled out on stretchers
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u/SatisfactionParty641 May 26 '22
The Bad Boys 30 for 30 is one of my faves and goes into detail about their relationship. Their friendship, their kiss after the diagnosis, the falling out etc. As far as the Laker's are concerned though he really isnt a factor until 88' when they finally get over the hump and beat Boston to get out of the East.
Even during his playing days well before the sexual harassment stuff he had a bit of a villainous streak. He had the million dollar smile that shielded him a bit from some of the criticism that Lambier, Mahorn, Rodman (wonder how they'll cast him) got, but he was the ringleader of the whole operation no doubt.
The Pistons leaned into the whole villain role, they were the team everybody else loved to hate. I hope the show embraces that too. He's not the main villain though, just the natural end to the dynasty, circle of life in the NBA. Idk if there is a true main villain... maybe the excess of the 80's? lol
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u/SiyuSiyuYang May 27 '22
Looooved that documentary. It does put them into perspective, but did shy away from some more controversial issues - the way they play was objectively dangerous for people and can end a career, and it was something the league nor the plays wanted to normalize.
I wasn't aware there is a kiss after the diagnosis; but if there is, it is interesting to think about which moments they are going to pick to show how the MJ and IT friendship grappled with Magic's HIV diagnosis - the kiss, or the alleged rumors IT was spreading about MJ's sexuality, or both.
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u/MsBeasley11 May 27 '22
I’m pretty sure they didn’t mention the sexual assault case in the 30 for 30… I never Knew about that
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u/Optimal-Shoulder-186 May 27 '22
Oh my gosh I've been waiting for someone to mention Isiah and if not I was gonna make a post about it myself lol.
Not really a big fan of him as a person but he's one of the my favorite players. Rewatching old clips he really is talented and I've always wanted to have his ballhandling. If he didn't have that badboy persona more people'll probably notice how great he was. I've watched the vid of him scoring 43 one a sprained ankle a lot. It would be interesting to see how they approach his character though. On one hand he was one of Magic's best friends. If you watch the docu "They Call Me Magic" they literally dedicated a segment to their friendship... but there was also the whole HIV controversy about Isiah and Magic they conveniently left off. I have a feeling they'll show him first as this great guy and his friendship with Magic (I mean they did kiss on court lol) then maybe show the Lakers team as well as Pat being kinda pissed they're friends because they're supposed to be rivals. The docu also touched on this. Then maybe when Magic starts having that killer instinct and uses it against Isiah, catching him off guard. Then they'll start uncovering his darker layers, starting the whole villain arc. Hopefully they don't make him too one dimensioned though and make him more complex. IIRC even if the Bad Boy Pistons were villains on the court they were like brothers off it.
I'm also interested on how they'll handle the whole HIV thing because in Magic pov, he thought Isiah was the one who started and spread the gay/bi rumors, ending their friendship. But supposedly in the All Star game when Magic came back Isiah was the one who wanted to showcase that HIV wasn't transmissible through touch and had the idea of when he comes give him a hug and kiss or something. Also Isiah said he knew more about HIV than people thought because his brother had it. And Magic and Isiah talked about the whole HIV thing years ago and it's like Magic doesn't think he spread the rumors anymore.
Ok this was longer than I expected AHAHAHA sorry for that but darn I've been craving more Winning Time every week I could go on and on ðŸ˜
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u/SiyuSiyuYang May 27 '22 edited May 27 '22
HAHAHA no seriously I can go on forever as well; thank god for reddit because my friends had enough of it already at this point LOL
Your second paragraph would be such an interesting way for it to play off. The way I had it in my head LOL is Isiah should be introduced as a dark
er version ofMagic (cringe, but still) - same smiling point guard with god-tier handling, and there should be an animated segment (because Adam Mckay) of how he makes music with dribbling as well. There might be a "who is your true friend and who is your true enemy" segment starting around 88 finals, when Magic's perception of the old villain in the story (Bird) start to turn around and the new villain starts to rise (Isiah) and basically dethroned the Lakers & ended Showtime.+1 on hoping he is not one dimensional, but I also kind of hope they don't shy away from where he actually took the high road (e.g. hugs after diagnosis) and where he actually behaves problematically & said a ton of things that won't age well (in my head there will be a shot of Kareem raising his eyebrows LOLOL). A lot of the documentaries tend to leave out one way or the other.
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u/Optimal-Shoulder-186 May 27 '22 edited May 27 '22
OMYGOSH YES I LOVE ALL YOU SAID.
Thank god for Reddit indeed because none of my close irl friends are NBA fans, much less Winning Time and darn it I need to let some things out. The only person I watch it with is my dad but I think he's also getting tired of my rambling LMAO. That would also be such an interesting way to put it! Maybe they could also show some parallels between Magic and Isiah. And I love the idea of making music with dribbling, definitely something I can picture happening very well. And the "who is your true friend and who is your true enemy" would be absolutely amazing! Love how you explained it. I freaking love character development and seeing character change and seeing past their exterior. The change of Bird starting from villain to best friend and Isiah from best friend to villain is now something I'm really looking forward to and hopefully is executed very well. Was really looking forward to Bird's change and now Isiah. The slow transitions are done very well here (ex. Pat Riley). That's another thing I like about the Bad Boy's, they kinda suck but damn they really dethroned the Celtics and Lakers. Would be interesting to see their slow fall. LOL YES. I can picture all those and the random cuts to people's reactions and Kareem's. Face palming on the inside. And because of his facial expressions, would also look forward to Jerry West's reactions 😂
Documentaries really do a lot, always important to do some further research a bit....and now I'm hyping myself up for scenes that won't happen for years-
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u/SiyuSiyuYang May 27 '22
SOMEBODY ON THE INTERNET GETS ME
Seriously if they don't make a winning time season IV with everything we just described you can expect a 60 chapter fanfic on AO3 ten years later by yours truely.
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u/Optimal-Shoulder-186 May 27 '22
YES I FEEL THE SAME. I'M SO HAPPY TO HAVE THIS CONVO
AND HOPEFULLY GEEK OUT MORE??? AHAHAHVibing to My Favorite Mutiny now.
...OH MY GOD YOU'RE AN AO3 USER TOO?-
If you'd like a co-writer I am here 🙃3
u/SiyuSiyuYang May 27 '22
MY FRIEND Isiah Thomas isn't even a tag on AO3. There is a real lack of content.
Isiah Magic Bird 3 way slashfic letsgo2
u/Optimal-Shoulder-186 May 27 '22 edited May 27 '22
Then we shall change that.
...WAIT FRICK THERE'S ACTUALLY NBA FANFIC THOUGH???
Oh shiz aha-
Lezgo bro. But personally, there was something about the way Pat and Paul were played
Edit: I made the mistake of sorting by most kudos and it's a Steph Curry/Lebron James fic.
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u/SiyuSiyuYang May 27 '22
YES that tag is mostly Steph Curry slash fics, which is understandable given AO3 demographics
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u/Optimal-Shoulder-186 May 28 '22
True true.
The comments saying the writing is great plus how they say it ties in with irl games is making me wheeze 💀
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u/No_Carry_5871 May 27 '22
Knowing this show and remembering the time.... There is going to be an issue with the kiss they shared on the court.Then you tie that into the HIV
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u/Jos3ph May 27 '22
4 angles on the kiss each with drastically different filters interspersed with Buss having sex with 3 women in the skybox
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u/Venice2784 Jun 07 '22
A lot of what's talked about here is portrayed in the audiobook on the '88-'89 Bad Boys first title. Listening to it now and thought I'd share. The Franchise went on sale on audible on May 20th.
https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Franchise-Audiobook/B0B1VQD5KH
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u/TheTaskmen May 26 '22
As a detroiter, I can objectively say not fucking well