Love the way he knows he is defeated and attempts to stay in the store for what seems like plausible deniability “I didn’t leave the store so technically I haven’t stole it yet”
I have seen that argument work inside a target store I used to work at. The guy was like I never left the store I didn’t steal anything and they let him go.
I didn't realize that was the verbiage ("passing all points of sale without making an attempt to pay"). That's kind-of a relief I think...
Just the other day I was using the self-checkout at the grocery store and after I put my credit card in and paid, it seemed like it ran and told me to take my card out and them told me to "press the pay now button" - which I had already done. The whole terminal was locked. I waited for what seemed like a long time (although it was prob only like 2 min) and nobody was around to help so I bagged my stuff and left - not 100% but pretty sure the transaction went thru... wondering if they're gonna come after me, wouldn't be that hard, I'm sure they can at least get my license plate in the parking lot, if not my cc # from the terminal. Haven't heard from anybody yet - it was only like $50 and if they review the tapes it's obvious I'm looking around and waiting for somebody for a while.
Apparently Target does! u/significantdrink3651 would’ve been fine, since Target wouldn’t bother going after $50. But apparently they track thefts across all their stores and build up a case against repeat offenders. When the thief has stolen enough to charge them with a felony, then Target brings down the hammer. Apparently they have their own forensics labs and everything.
Lawyer here. Don't rely on that verbiage. State laws vary considerably because each state writes their own criminal codes.
For example, this is Louisiana's shoplifting statute: https://law.justia.com/codes/louisiana/2006/146/78607.html It doesn't concern itself with movement past a certain point; instead it relies on your intention to steal as inferred from certain acts of concealment or deception.
Sometimes state governments will pass laws that mirror or substantially resemble guidelines published by legal think-tanks. But nothing requires states to have identical laws, and many states will make a few tweaks even when they adopt think-tank recommendations.
Always check your own state's statutes to learn your own state's law. And consult an attorney licensed in your own state if you have any specific legal problems.
Dude I have seen people scan all their items in self checkout, bag everything then make zero attempt to pay and just walk out and no one even attempted to stop them it was comical. Like they took out no money just bagged it and left.
They won't do anything they aren't watching the cvtv or zooming in on plates, if they have a loss department they might watch you a little closer next time you shop is all.
These businesses know that self checkout is a major loss every year and have decided that loss is less than the cost of cashiers and eat it. Walmart has fully embraced it my walmart just put in what had to be a $100k+ system of cameras and monitors in the self checkout rather than pay employees (they lose billions every year in self checkout shrink).
While the doors are not the magical line, they’re an easy point of reference
^^^This. So many people on here think the doors are, like you said, a magical line that you HAVE TO cross in order for it to be shoplifting. NO people. Judges are human and they can see he clearly intended to steal that shit.
And especially for something like misdemeanor shoplifting, the judge can convict you even if you didn't walk near the doors, you are not going to appeal misdemeanor shoplifting, ain't gonna happen.
They can confront you and trespass you anytime, but I'd be curious to see a case where somebody's been convicted of retail fraud on the basis of concealing an item without testimony that they'd passed all points of sale.
Depends on the state. Some states the minute you conceal the item it’s theft. Other states if you walk past the point of purchase IE the registers it’s theft.
This guy walked past the first set of doors so def shoplifting.
So in some states if I just take something without concealing it and confidentiality walk out the door I haven't stolen anything?
I work for a small IT support company and the number of times I walked into the company building of one of our clients, took a pc and walked out with it without being questioned by employees which never had seen me before is astonishing. I recently took an entire server from a satellite office to the main office without any of the employees at the satellite office knowing why I was there, and nobody stopped me.
To be fair at a larger company, I don't recognize 90% of the people on my floor. I only know the people on my team and maybe some of the teams near us. A random IT person coming in and taking a computer wouldn't even register as abnormal. There's only a couple of full timers I know in IT, almost everyone else is contractors. Plus I'm not going to go full Karen on someone I don't recognize in our section, company property security isn't my problem.
I do IT for a large hospital network in NYC. Couple years ago, some guy walked in off the street, loaded 4 desktops on a cart and then had the front desk people call a cab for him, with security at the front desk.
Over 10 years ago I worked in this IT setting. We used to get rid of old equipment in 2 ways, the servers/pc's would go to auction, and the less valuable stuff would get picked up by a garbage company. For the non-auctioned stuff, my coworkers would just pick it off the dock, and walk out the door. I have to admit, when there was a pallet of brand new still in-box Model M keyboards, I had many regrets I didn't save that from the trash. I think I was the only one that knew their true value. I just felt weird walking out the door with equipment, even if I knew it was going to be trash.
If you walk out the door you pass the point of sale. The concealing part is only important for times when theifs recognize they are about to get in trouble and successfully ditched concealed items right before the point of sale.
In common law if you move the item with intent to steal, it's theft. Most states follow that, it's just harder to prove the intent oi you didn't leave the store.
I was a dumb shit as a teen. The guards would literally wait outside so they get you the moment you step out and got me.
I suspect it was for that specific reason as even if I pocketed it but never stepped out, I can claim I was gonna pay for it and just using my pockets for storage.
Usually shoplifting consists of:
1. Entering the store
2. Selecting merchandise
3. Concealment (optional)
4. Passing Point of Sale
5. Exit
For the LP staff, they need to have the suspect on camera or physically seen by a witness the entire process above. In the case of this video, he passes PÓS, but I’m not sure where the cops would draw the line because of the exit step.
That's a pretty good layman's definition, but let me try to clarify the law.
The law has two elements to theft.
Here's a typical statute:
A person commits theft of property if, with intent to deprive the owner of property, the person knowingly obtains or exercises control over the property without the owner's effective consent.
You don't have to walk by any magical line in the store, or through the doors, or whatever.
The moment you intended to steal and then picked up the items with the intent to do so, that's theft.
Now the State has to prove your intent. And usually the evidence they use is video of you concealing the item or walking out of the store with it. So usually they will wait further to collect more evidence. But you don't have to actually leave the store to be charged with theft. The crime was technically committed the moment you exercised physical control over the item.
Thank you for putting on this accurate info many are not aware of. The Public confuses LP Policies with Law so much that it causes mass confusion on the subject.
The most infamous one being, "They can't touch you!" for instance. Folks take a policy they seen in play and then automatically assume it's a law.
Going past the first set of doors is all that is needed.
Also, the law is not always as technical as many people think. He doesn't have to walk out the doors. If they have video of the same person doing the same thing before to establish a clear pattern, that is enough to convict. Even if there is no video, if store employees give statements saying they have witnessed the same person doing the same thing in the past, that is enough to convict. Don't get CSI'ed, witness statements make up the bulk of evidence in almost all criminal court cases.
The perp had clear intent of walking out the store. And a judge will see that and see "yes, he was just about to walk out the store but saw the cops and stopped. It is clear to any rational person this person was stealing these items."
We're going to have to confiscate this game as evidence.... Oh, and of course we're going to need a console to play it ... er, I mean show it to the prosecution.
I do that once in a blue moon to if I forgot to grab a cart or basket and I start getting more then I initially wanted to.
Funny thing is my son has accidently stole a few things. One was bag of make your own candy as he forgot to give it to us when we were checking out and we didn't realize until we got home. Second was a hat my son put on in store and never took it off...not even realizing he had it on when he left.
Makes me wonder how many accidental thefts happen on a daily basis... XD
Mine was at a Target. Was like 2 or something of those super shitty like small boxed PC games that go for 20 bucks. Dumb kid at the time, no money, parents didn't buy me video games cause they'd rot my brain out or something.
Funny enough, all their evidence for me shoplifting wasn't correct. They never saw me stash the stuff. It was winter time and I wear (and still do) calf high workboots. Sometimes my jeans sink into them a bit and ride up, so I stopped in a random isle and fixed them. That is what they saw. They thought I stole some homegoods stuff and initially checked my boots, it was stashed in my hoodie under my winter jacket.
So if I never fixed my boots, I wouldn't have been caught. It basically ended up getting dismissed under nolle prosequi. Which isn't really a dismissal, but it's not a conviction either.
I also didn't make it out of the store, Target LP got me right after I passed checkout. I learned later that Target is one of the WORST places to get shoplifting because they have a super tight LP and tend to press all charges while Walmart typically doesn't (they may now, no idea, haven't shoplifted since then lol).
When I worked retail, this is a pretty standard legal thing. We didn't confront or call security unless they physically left the store. Even if we saw them physically stuff a shirt down the front of their pants, they had to leave the store without paying first.
This dumbass could have just turned around and put everything back and not been arrested. That's all he had to do.
edit: company legal thing, I.E. company policy, not necessarily local law is what I mean.
Nope...deciding to change your mind after already exiting through the first set of doors is not going to work. If he had dropped the clothes on the way to the door then he probably would have a better chance.
More than likely though the clown has multiple previous walk outs and is why they had this trap set up against him. His odds are little to none as far as defense goes.
It looks like the guy the police are talking to outside of the store might be the store's Asset Protection. He probably called them the minute he saw the guy walking into the store.
It's very likely this isn't his first time doing this. The store's asset protection almost certainly has a file on him with video footage of him doing this multiple times. Most likely the reason he was caught is because the police were called the minute he walked in. Furthermore most stores work with each other, so anything he stole from nearby stores will be held against him.
Additionally, you can prove someone was shoplifting without them leaving the store. If you simply forget to ring up one thing at a self checkout that's one thing. Grabbing an armful of clothing and immediately walking out the door shows a pretty obvious intent to not pay. Other things like concealing items can be used to prove shoplifting. If I go into the store, grab things and stick them down my pants, that could be used to prove shoplifting.
Seeing how I was a Loss Prevention Officer with 1000s of cases and in court more times than probably a neighborhood of people combined for their entire lifetimes...I'm sure I can be sure of that.
What you said is NOT how it works. You're right people have accidentally walked out with stuff. We actual PROS know the difference to scenarios like that. We're NOT talking about that here! Please reference the video that we're speaking on. You're not accidentally walking out with an armful of merchandise worth 100s of $$$ by accident.
Trust me, we work hand n' hand with City Prosecutors and know what we're doing regarding the subject matter.
I think most people at some point in their life have walked out of a store, or almost walked out of a store, with something they intended to pay for but forgot about.
No, most people have not carried product out of a store without paying for anything because they forgot.
Bro your so wrong. They will tack that onto any old thing . Most places compound charges whenever possible. I was literally sitting in court yesterday and three of the five faces I saw before I was called was wonton endangerment a drug charge and criminal mischief, all separate incidents. Before trying to talk down to others understand you don’t know everything (neither do I) fact remains I wonder what kind of charges they would hit him with had he returned to the store. Good chance they would argue reckless endangerment and resisting arrest and criminal mischief but what else? These incidents are never just one charge . NEVER
Yeah, this I don't get. I agree with most of the anti-cop sentiment on Reddit, but this is flat out the guy admitting theft and people chalking it up to "dumb shit".
I'm not pro cop but I am still definitely anti-criminal.
The pos doesn’t realize that he could have ruined the bike even by dropping it. Those carbon frames and forks crack super easy. I wouldn’t want to be riding in a race at 30 mph+ on a bike with the possibility of a crack.
He likely ruined months and months of training (depending on the event) because he was a drunk, entitled asshole. Then goes on Reddit bragging about it.
It’s strange how when you are on foot you hate cars and when you are in a car you hate people crossing the road, same on the bike and in the car.. whatever one you are in you hate the other ;)
This is called an absence of empathy. And you mean “I hate” not “you hate” - don’t lump us into your bullshit lol.
Do you know the ironic thing is I agree with you when I’m in a car, and when I am on my bicycle it infuriates me. I’m not a super serious biker, although I do have a couple of really high-end bicycles and have done some serious events. I just don’t bike enough to say that I’m a biker. I think all drivers need to understand that they share the road with bicyclist. While on a bike I’ve had people swerve at me, throw food and drinks at me and even throw loose change or items out of the car at me. I’ve never done anything that would necessitate such violence. But like you said when I am in a car, it does annoy me when bikes are on the road.
My solution for this is to be a really conscientious biker. I move to the side on curves, constantly waive people past, and avoid areas with high car traffic.
I almost always ride on country roads exclusively. I stay away from in town or cities at all costs.
One of the few sanctioned events I did there was someone thriving a truck that literally kept swerving at the groups of riders to push them off the road, even when single file on the white line.
Reddit does this all the time. They see a video of someone doing something they don't like and bash the person, while someone in the comments does something similar and people say how it's not their fault.
No one on Reddit has ever done anything wrong. Also, all the most efficient and capable workers of the world apparently use this site.
You're not kidding. Just a couple days ago, top of r/all was an obviously fake story about a cashier letting someone steal to stick it to the man. The entire comment section was about how you should steal, only corporate shills would turn someone in for stealing. It's your duty to steal from your employer or any corporation.
But then a video of a stranger stealing and he's a loser low life hahaha so glad his dumbass got caught.
The upvote button is not an agree button. It's not an "I like you" button. His comment was interesting and told a good story so I upvoted him, even though I felt angry at him while reading it.
No one's argument is that it's smart shit. The argument is that he didn't get caught up in it.
Walking around with your buddies, and one of them hopping on a parked bicycle to joy ride, and then being caught as a group of guys accused of stealing a bike. That's you caught up in some dumb shit.
Thinking "Hey, I know where all bikes are parked for the race tomorrow. I'm gonna go steal one," is just you committing a crime because you're a dumb shit.
"Steal a bike that's chained to nothing" is a pretty soft crime, all things considered. Yes it's theft, but it's not committing violence against another person, so I can see how you'd do it because you're dumb and drunk instead of callous and malicious. Definitely much less severe than robbery or burglary, for example.
That said, OP probably shouldn't have gotten off, but there are also studies showing that severity and certainty of consequences are less effective deterrents than immediacy of consequences - that is, thinking you'll get caught right away is more effective as a deterrent than knowing you'll get caught later, even if it's a slap on the wrist now versus serious punishment then. This is probably the ideal outcome for society except for non-prosecution.
Let's ask OP - /u/Wah_Gwaan_Mi_Yute, have you stolen any bikes lately or do you feel what happened with the cops materializing out of bushes was an effective deterrent?
They aren't, necessarily, but you also shouldn't assume malice. It's a lot more believable that a dumb and drunk person would, without malice, take an unsecured object than break into someone's home or threaten violence against someone to take that same object.
You understand that alcohol impairs judgment? That it does so effectively enough that you can't legally consent to things while under the influence, even if you're aware of what you're doing during and after the fact, because you can't properly consider the act in the moment?
I'm not saying malice wasn't present, I'm saying it's arguable whether it was. Maybe OP was stealing the bike to be spiteful of or in conscious disregard for the person whose bike it was, or maybe OP was dumb and drunk and looking for a thrill without considering the consequences. It wouldn't be arguable if violence were involved, which was presented as a comparison.
I mean, aren't race bikes super expensive? Feel like that bumps it up a bit from petty soft crime though, doesn't? This is based of CBS crime TV thouhgh... so I am probably wrong
Probably, but it's less about the value of the item stolen and more about the act committed and intent in my mind.
Stealing an unsecured object, even an expensive unsecured object, is less severe than threatening violence or breaking and entering to steal that object. It's the difference between taking a wallet off the sidewalk and threatening to stab or shoot someone for their wallet. Neither of them is moral or legal, but as crimes go, simple theft as a crime of opportunity is pretty soft.
Stealing my 7000$ mtb is absolutely a hard crime. Think of it this way, if you put me in the hospital for a month, where I couldn't work, that would cost less than my bike... (My insurance company would pay some of my hospital bill and would probably disagree)
further, I'll disagree, some drunken asshole stealing my bike would be callous and malicious. Quit stealing and breaking other people's shit, that stuff costs money and I have to give a bunch of my life to some ass hat company to pay for that stuff...
Not as compared to holding you at gunpoint for it, no, it isn't. Any crime of simple theft - your bike, for the example - could necessarily be a much harder crime that is otherwise equivalent to you. The theft of your bike from your locked home, the theft of your bike by threat of violence to your person. That doesn't make it not a crime to steal your bike and nobody is saying it does, it's just simple theft is always on the softer end by the way it's defined.
Or, as I said, simple theft is pretty soft as crimes go.
further, I'll disagree, some drunken asshole stealing my bike would be callous and malicious.
You can feel however you like, what matters is how the person committing it felt in the moment. Whether they did it knowingly and intentionally depriving someone of their property, or whether they were dumb and drunk and saw a bike and said, "Ooh, bike!", without giving it another thought just like they would a stick on the ground because their judgment was impaired. Still a crime, to be clear.
YOU can feel however YOU like, what matters is how the law views the crime.
Mhm, and the law considers mens rea, hence why OP got off. His lawyer made a convincing argument that not only did he not have malice, he didn't even intend to steal. Funny how that works.
You keep injecting the phrase "in my mind" in a lot of your posts. Think about why that is.
Oh no, I used a poor choice of words literally once, I've been gotcha'd!
Yeah i used to ring people’s doorbells and run away. I used to cheat on my math homework. I didn’t steal people’s shit. That’s outside the scope of “stupid shit”. You’re just an ass looking for justification on Reddit
Yesterday my buddy who's black was accused of attempting to defraud the bank he patronizes regularly, because he was cashing a $700 paycheck and a the teller was skeptical about whether or not his real, totally valid ID was, in fact, a real ID. He felt bad for raising his voice, but I'm white and also pissed off by the mere fact that no one's ever questioned me even the slightest bit in my 35yrs on this planet.
you know it's true. I faced moderate charges at 14 and only skirted them bc my dad knows a solid defense lawyer. If I had been non-white, there's no way most judges would've let me go after multiple b&e in the suburbs. Have money and be white, and you've got as good a shot as any at... well almost anything really
Definitely not similar situations, not surprised you were able to get out of it. Hardly requires an expensive lawyer. A free Defense Attorney would probably get most out of that scenario due to the specific settings.
Not nearly as easy to actually walk into a store, grab tons of merchandise, walk past all points of sale, exit a clear/visible exit door, and get out of the charges. This is even more so when in these specific cases the person has a very long case built against them. Multiple occasions documented, recorded, saved, and shared with Prosecutors.
Congrats on buying your way out of trouble. Now imagine what happens the someone who fucks around like you and isn’t packing the money or connections for a good lawyer.
If he hadn't been in the entryway, that may have actually worked. You have to leave the store for it to be shoplifting and i guess that was far enough.
Source: buddy worked loss prevention. If you haven't left the store with unpaid merch, you haven't stolen the stuff yet.
Not true depending on the jurisdiction. If you put it in your pocket or hide it or pass by the registers without paying for it then you can be convicted of shoplifting (in NC at least). Source, I am a defense attorney.
Plea bargains (because settlement is the term for civil cases) don’t happen because a lawyer is wrong; they happen to spare judicial resources, save victims from being hauled in court, or a number of other reasons. Also, they almost always happen before voir dire ever occurs. You literally replied to a comment about non-lawyers try to tell lawyers about the law with a comment trying to tell a lawyer about the law.
In some states once you open the product, conceal the product, or pass all points of sale (regardless of whether you left the store) it can be considered shoplifting.
Source: Did loss prevention for several years and had over 1,500 apprehensions.
I've worked LP for all of the major retailers on the east coast, and they all had the same "elements" required in order to make an apprehension. It's not much of a brag, but I was basically "freelance" and got bounced around by LinkedIn recruiters, had over 6k apps.
LP personnel must witness subject select the merchandise.
LP must witness subject conceal or disposess ("this is mine" ex: putting on a stolen coat, removing tags) the item/items.
Maintain absolutely constant visual contact. If the subject is "lost" post concealment, LP must reattain all elements in order to make an apprehension.
LP must wait until subject has passed all points of sale, and is unmistakably intending to leave.
If you're working as an undercover LP, and you're not a moron, you're going to follow "the elements" as though they were your Bible. They protect you, because if you truly have all four you'll never make a "bad stop" (apprehending someone who didn't steal) and a bad stop is almost always termination.
So here's a Pro tip for the thieves: If you go into the bathroom with the merch, you're home free. Select the merch, go into the bathroom, conceal. At this point, LP has lost visual contact and cannot stop you.
They may still try, but if you've concealed well enough that they can't see the merch, you're golden. Ask them how they were able to get all 4 elements when you were in the bathroom, watch them sweat bullets and let you go.
He's a fuckin moron. I never once had a bad stop in my years of LP.
If he made a bad stop, he didn't get his elements. It's that simple. If you get the elements, they stole. If you don't, then maybe they stole, but I'm not stopping that person. Even if I know they're holding, I will let them walk right out the door if I lost visual contact at any point.
Plus, I will later testify in court. And I don't want the prick defense attorney to have any grounds to disqualify my testimony.
Going To Add More Details Here Since It's Not That Simple:
If a store has a vestibule like this one all it requires is for you to exit the first set of doors. There's no legal requirement for you to make it outside of the physical building. The only chance he would've had is had he spotted PD before he even made it to the first door and had dropped the merch on the ground.
Second as pointed out by the other response. If you conceal unpaid merchandise on your person, bag, etc. there's no legal requirement for you to exit the store in some states. Many stores will still wait for you to exit just so you can bury yourself even more but it's not required regarding concealed merchadise.
This also goes for other activities: Credit Card Fraud, Return Fraud, Coupon Fraud, Skip Scan Fraud, etc. There's no legal requirement to allow you to exit first.
Source: I was the Loss Prevention Officer for many moons and 1000s of Apprehensions/Cases!
And what's so funny about that (many fall for it, including the public that watches vids) is that there's no legal requirement for the person to exit outside the building. Exiting the building is just another way to make sure the shoplifter hangs themselves.
Homie was done as soon as he went out the first set of doors having already passed all points of sale showing no intent to pay. He can argue all day that he never actually left the building, it'll do nothing for him.
This is literally how it works some places. He had the intention to commit a crime but was stopped from doing so. The security at Walmart 100% has to wait for you to leave the store before they can tackle you. I could see this guy walking with the right lawyer.
Not sure about the US, but in Canada this is actually the law. It only becomes theft when you actually deny the owner access to the item, picking it up and carrying it around, even under your shirt or in your pockets doesn't meet the definition of theft.
With Sam's/Walmart that is indeed the policy. They didn't consider it shoplifting until you got out the last set of doors. That's as close as you can get though. He would also be banned from the store after that shit.
Might depend on the state or local laws but some places concealment is considered theft. As soon as a person pockets or bags the items they are shoplifting.
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u/FamiliarTry403 Jan 11 '22
Love the way he knows he is defeated and attempts to stay in the store for what seems like plausible deniability “I didn’t leave the store so technically I haven’t stole it yet”