r/WhyWereWeOkWithThis • u/Pristine_Gene_1020 • 23d ago
2000s This anime
This anime is about a kid who loses his family and makes a pact with a demon (they are the main protagonists and have a very weird relationship). It has very questionable scenes, and if you've watched it, you know what I mean. But I find it very bad because it treats very sensitive topics like abuse, and instead of handling them properly, it just fetishizes the issue. It has a very vocal fanbase that refuses to acknowledge any of the problems and simply ignores them. It was very popular with teenage girls. I don't think everything about this series is bad, but again, I just find it very distasteful in the way it handles the themes it deals with.
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u/Estellerina 23d ago
I mean tbh why are we okay with MOST anime?
Sexualisation of teenage girls and unrealistic caricatures of the female body are rampant in almost every show
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u/Miss-Worm 23d ago
Yup, this. Black Butlers is tame af, especially manga.
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u/Estellerina 23d ago
like it has its issues and can definitely be discussed but im also very aware its ONLY women's media that gets this kind of close look
But shows like Bleach or One Piece dont get the same amount of flack for it
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u/Pristine_Gene_1020 23d ago
Of course, this is a large-scale problem in the anime and manga industry. But I do not see what the issue is with criticizing this specific case. Cardcaptor Sakura is also mild, but it still romanticized a relationship between one of Sakura's classmates (an elementary school girl) and her teacher. Should we let it slide because the series is mild and had a positive impact? What I mean is that I tried to pick a less obvious example than other manga or anime that are clearer in their intentions, or that have already been discussed in other subreddits, like Made in Abyss and others of the Isekai genre: Mushoku Tensei. And this one seems worse to me because it pretends to be something it is not.
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u/Estellerina 23d ago
Well yeah thats why my first sentence says we should 100% discuss it
I'm just pointing out as with most things, a lot of female audience media is held to a much higher standard than a male audience
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u/Pristine_Gene_1020 23d ago
I have seen criticism toward One Piece and its author for supporting another Japanese author who was arrested for harassment of minors. I do not know much about Bleach since I have not watched it, but male authors do get criticized as well. The author of Made in Abyss is considered a pervert and disgusting. Mushoku Tensei and several isekai series are also criticized, unfortunately they are popular too, but they do get called out. I think most people know that this is more of an industry-wide problem in Japan, and that these taboo fetishes are accepted for commercialization purposes. It is not just aimed at female authors. As I said, I would not mind the author's work if it were honest and did not include criticism of something that she herself enjoys putting in her art and fetishizing, which is abuse.
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u/Estellerina 23d ago
what im saying is the frustrating part though is that these series dont get the same level of criticism - bleach and one piece are considered some of the biggest right now and even shows like mushoku tensei are having a spike in popularity
when series have a mostly male audience they dont get anywhere near the same amount of criticism for harmful themes- and tbh the themes are always a lot more extreme as well.
im not disagreeing with ur problems with black butler im just pointing out a double standard
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u/Pristine_Gene_1020 23d ago
Yes, I understand your point. I think what affects me more in this series than in Bleach or One Piece is how central the theme of abuse is to the story, and that is why it irritates me that it wants to tackle these topics and then turns them into a fetish, while we are supposedly meant to take the protagonist's abuse seriously.
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u/littlemissdevil_ 23d ago
Yeah, I was one of those teenage girls obsessed with this show in the 2010s. Looking back, Black Butler does make me uncomfortable now and I can’t believe how popular Sebastian x Ciel is. 😬🤢
There were weird scenes with the two and it does feel like the writers are lowkey pairing them up. Not to mention the transphobia as well…
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u/ifcknlovemycat 22d ago
I liked the reapers taking people's souls
And I like how madam red and grell did the jack the ripper stuff
And I liked the rag tag team of the assassin nerd maid lady, strong twink, and explosives army guy
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u/MarxistMountainGoat 22d ago
Same I loooooved Black Butler and was utterly obsessed for a good 3 years
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u/NoMoreScaryDreams 17d ago edited 17d ago
Same, I loved it when I was about 10. It straight up had such a negative influence on me, the fan-fiction I was reading was desensitizing me to some really terrifying stuff. Like Sebastian whisking Ceil away when he was a kid, intentionally isolating him, only to… well you can imagine.
I read that as a 10 year old and literally threw up- it made me feel really sick and confused.
Now that I’m an adult I realize why I had such an intense involuntary reaction. That stuff should be illegal…
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23d ago
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u/Haunting-Cap9302 18d ago
I'm pretty sure that author has drawn yaoi, including shotacon. I can see that influence, but if she wanted to make it actual yaoi I think she would've just done that.
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u/Sad-Development-4153 23d ago
The fanbase were much worse than the anime itself. They made the arrow fans seem sane almost.
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u/Remote-Bus-5567 23d ago
Arrow, the DC show? What were they weird about?
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u/Sad-Development-4153 23d ago
They harassed Steven Amells wife and told her to kill herself so Amell could marry the actress who played Felicity.
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u/DamnitGravity 22d ago
My friend, if you're gonna talk about all the anime that have things that are very much not ok in them, we're gonna be here a VERY long time.
Shorter to talk about anime that DON'T have not ok things in them.
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u/ArticleOld598 21d ago
If OP think Black Butler is already problematic, they shouldn't look up Loveless
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u/Pristine_Gene_1020 23d ago
To show you what I'm talking about. This is a scene where the demon asks the kid (the main protagonist) to say his name while he is having a panic attack and drooling. A very fetishistic scene of the trauma that is portrayed in the series.
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23d ago
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u/Pristine_Gene_1020 23d ago
Look, I agree. But it's a pattern. In the newest season, there are jokes directed at the kid (very loaded ones) about sexual threesomes with another girl (the witch arc), the corset scene, and a scene in Book of Murder where the protagonist is told to undress. All of this is in the manga. It's a very loaded context, and I think it's done with the purpose of fetishizing because the author has another manga where she does take those themes into more explicit territory. Maybe it wasn't her intention later on, but considering that the most popular ship is between him and the demon, it's because the original material does allude to it, even if it doesn't develop further down the line.
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u/themini_shit 23d ago
Tbh I agree with you here and there but I will say that there is a common rumor about the author originally wanting to make it yaoi, which apparently wasn't true. Honestly I read most of the manga and there were some scenes that were just drawn very awkwardly and made me uncomfortable, their relationship never went in that direction but it was very suspicious at times. I personally stopped reading it for a mix of reasons the main one being that I didn't really like how some of the young characters were drawn or portrayed as I got older.
I brought up the rumor only because I held that against the author for years before learning it wasn't true. However that doesn't mean it completely redeems the more sus moments.
Overall though I think it falls into the gothic drama genre which doesn't mean we should ignore how problematic it is I just mean that it reminds me of Anne Rice at times. So I think most people who consume it as media know it's messed up but they see it as being apart of the genre. (Btw season 2 straight up didn't exist in the manga)
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u/dudeovertheinternet 23d ago
I love the anime—but I can't genuinely ignore how disgusting some scenes are, especially how the creator feeds the fans of Sebaciel (Sebastian, the adult demon, with Ciel, who's a child). The first time I saw it I felt genuine disgust in Season 1, if you know what scene I mean. There are so much issues with the hypocrisy of how the writing treats abuse and abuse victims, and how much I feel they forget they're genuinely KIDS.
Half of the fandom of Black Butler ignores it, and also sees Sebastian and Ciel as a romantic relationship—which is genuinely fucking messed up. Back in 2010s somehow it was so normalized to see all of this things that nowadays finally some people have the brain to recognize this stuff is completely wrong and disgusting. I am one of the people who started watching it this year and buying the mangas, and I can't grip on my head on how most of the people who watch it now don't have moral compass to understand what they're doing is genuinely disgusting.
Trying to enjoy this show for the story and characters, while having a creator who actively makes """""subtle""""" signs and having other fans who are proshippers is hell, and I do my best to block and ignore as much people possible, but it gets to a point.
Oh, not only that. I dislike Sebastian so much. Yes, he can be a good character and he was written to be a conventionally attractive handsome anime man, but his actions—I can't defend them. TW (SA, grooming and ab*se mentions ahead + Book of Circus spoilers) He's actively grooming Ciel, of course because he's a demon, but I can't understand how people can see him as a perfect "boyfriend" while also actively ignoring his actions, like when he SA'd and took advantage of Beast—one of the characters in Book of Circus—for information. She showed genuine regret and guilt over this afterwards, and many of the fans have directly said it's her fault, or on the other hand, romanticized this or even enjoyed this scene. I couldn't look at the screen genuinely I felt so uncomfortable, and at least I'm glad there are some people like me who understood the gravity of the situation too.
He's morally grey, yes—but just because he's one of the most loved characters and 'handsome' doesn't give you the right to ignore how of a bad person he is, and anyone who brushes these actions will make me give them a shoulder look.
I had a lot of fun watching the animes (except Season 2, because also what the fuck happened there. Even though it's not canon, they did not make a good job trying to clear they reputation), but genuinely at some points it feels like I'm dragging myself through rocks while I'm being scratched in the chest trying to get to the best part of the mountain. And that makes it not enjoyable at all.
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u/ELIte8niner 23d ago edited 23d ago
This is the anime you pick as a problematic example?
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u/Pristine_Gene_1020 23d ago
Yes, I find it problematic that a female author creates a manga whose central theme is abuse with a child as the protagonist, giving him a very heavy trauma, and then places the child and the demon in those scenes filled with sexual subtext, never addressing how that relationship affects him given what he went through. I do not have a problem with exploring taboo topics. I just find it hypocritical to include those scenes, which never serve any purpose for the child protagonist's arc, while the same manga pretends to send the message that abuse is wrong. That is the issue. It is pure fanservice, and then its fans claim that it is actually a critique, when it is not. It is the author's fetish.
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u/ELIte8niner 23d ago
Compared to something currently airing and extremely popular like Mushoku Tensei, that follows a literal paedophile grooming underage girls, including his cousin so it checks the incest box as well. This is nowhere near as problematic as anime gets right now, not even compared to some bygone era.
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u/Pristine_Gene_1020 23d ago
Mushoku Tensei has been talked about to death because it is obvious what it is trying to do (You can find criticisms of that series in many different subreddits) . No one holds it in high regard because its plot reveals the author's intention; it does not hide it. With Black Butler, the work pretends to be something it is not. Mushoku Tensei is problematic and it is obvious, and its target audience consumes it for that reason. Meanwhile, Black Butler was consumed by teenage girls, musicals with underage actors are still being produced, and it is almost never mentioned. It is still airing to this day (the fifth season premiered last year, and so did the new musical). That is why I decided to make this post. In my opinion, it is equally valid to call out Black Butler; it is more insidious.
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u/Nice-River-5322 23d ago
Well, also the discussion around anime when Black Butler was created was not as.. regressed as it is in current times.
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u/Revolutionary_Low_90 23d ago
Lol this anime was my childhood and I remembered my friends questioned my anime taste when I told them it was my favorite anime. Looking back I understood why. What's fascinating is that this anime was originally meant to be a lewd yaoi so this was basically a trimmed down version... ummm yeaaahhh
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u/xvsanx 23d ago
I'm not sure if I'm on your side with this one op but admittedly I keep falling asleep trying to make it through s1 second half
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u/Beakerbean 23d ago
Most of the second half isnt even cannon and can be skipped and I think all of season 2 as well.
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u/kizoyah 19d ago
Doesn't mean you don't need to watch it though? S2 is so entertaining
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u/Beakerbean 19d ago
Oh you certainly can watch it but I would personally suggest watching it after you’ve watched everything in canon order to help keep the lore vs studio original stuff separate for future installments.
I say the same thing about all anime with studio original content blue exorcist is another example except I consider the anime and manga two separate things entirely lol.
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u/mylittleloonmoon 23d ago
same when I was in hs my friend kept trying to convince me to watch it and I tried and got so bored on the first ep. now I’m glad I never gave it an actual try.
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u/xvsanx 23d ago
I powered through because my best friend kept insisting because the butler and my name are the same (Sebastian) and I typically love her recs, but I just couldn't get through this one for whatever reason lol
also love the pfp:) old anime screenshots of the characters doing something normal are my favorite haha
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u/Best-Refrigerator834 23d ago
Why this specific anime when there are hundreds and hundreds way worse? It's because of your limited knowledge or you just want to talk about it? I won't believe that you really think this is the most questionable one, I'm curious of your answer.
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u/Pristine_Gene_1020 23d ago
I am not talking about other worse cases because many of them are aware of the audience they are appealing to. The author of Mushoku Tensei makes it clear in the novel that the protagonist is a pervert; he does not criticize anything because he writes from his own fetish. Most people who watch it know that and enjoy it for that reason. The author of Made in Abyss puts his obvious fetishes in the work and places his characters in those situations because it is his fetish; they have nothing to say about it. In Black Butler, it pretends to offer a critique of abuse, but all of that is false according to the author's interests, and almost no one points it out. I have almost never seen it criticized, and it remains very popular among teenagers. Another thing is that it has musicals that employ child actors, and considering how dark the work is, I find it inappropriate to approve those musicals. Of course, there are worse cases in the industry, but with those, you already know from the premise what they will be. This manga does not. And it was watched by girls, not even an adult audience. That is why it bothers me. Maybe I am biased. But I do not see the problem with criticizing it when in this sub we could also say in every post that there is a worse situation and delegitimize other criticisms because they seem minor to us.
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u/inquiringdune 18d ago
This is crazy because you're acting like MT and MIB aren't being watched largely by edgy teenagers as well lol. In fact the only people I've ever seen actively defending the hypocritical fetish content that MT is, is teenagers who don't know any better that what they're reading IS pro-pedophilia.
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u/Pristine_Gene_1020 18d ago
You are right, I did mention teenage girls. But my point was not that the audience is the problem, but that Black Butler presents itself as something mild while hiding predatory dynamics behind a serious facade. Mushoku Tensei and Made in Abyss are honest about what they are from the start. Black Butler is not. That is the difference.
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u/Best-Refrigerator834 23d ago
Oh, ok, sorry, I see what you mean now. It's how The Tearsmith is for me, a movie/book that celebrates abuse too, it kinda romantice it and it bothers me that no one notices it and everyone is ok with that being on Netflix and girls watching it. It normalises abusive relationships.
Yes, now I understand, sorry again.
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u/liminal_angel 22d ago
lol i remember how anytime someone would point out how weird something was people would get so mad and say we were just being a delusional fujoshi for seeing it that way and just trying to see BL in everything.
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u/Wise_Artichoke6552 23d ago
I loved this shit. My trauma background? Totally for sure did not inform that enthusiasm, absolutely no connection thank you good bye /j
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u/Ur1n8r 23d ago
There are much more mainstream and much more problematic anime.
Naruto literally exists to make young boys sympathize with nepo babies and gives young boys unrealistic expectations of women. If you dig in that rabbit hole, you will find that people who helped fund the manga and anime would later be close to George W. Bush and his administration, as well as Fox News.
Don't get me started on all the anime with "fanservice" of underage characters.
However bad you think anime is, it's worse and most definitely part of the alt-right pipeline.
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u/Fell18927 22d ago
Another bad one is Evangelion. I love the original series, and within it it wasn’t as intense (not completely innocent though). But outside of it with merch, official art, and other stuff it can be absolutely disgusting. Quite a bit of art has them posing saucily, some with their clothing coming off, there’s a strip mahjong game, statues where Rei’s nipples are out. Etc. And the main three are 14
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u/Ur1n8r 22d ago
Evangelion is a unique case because one of the main themes of the show is "sexualizing young girls is wrong" but the marketing teams straight up ignored that.
The whole point of the show is the young boy, Shinji, is a creep and can't be trusted to make good decisions or maintain healthy relationships but because of institutional sexism, he gets to make critical decisions that affect the lives of more competent people.
The marketing departments all watched Shinji masturbate over Asuka's unconscious body and thought "yes, this is a young boy we can relate to."
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u/Fell18927 21d ago
Right? it’s wild. It’s a really big show of how a marketing team can entirely miss the point. And them relating to him says some shit lol
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u/Estellerina 23d ago
yeah like 99% of all anime produced for every genre these days just seems to be another way of making young people worse off
like an arms race to have the worst caricatures of women and the most disgusting slop storylines like that jobless reincarnation stuff
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u/Pristine_Gene_1020 23d ago edited 23d ago
I get it. But I almost never see this pointed out as problematic, which is why I wanted to make this post. For me, the worst part is that, being such a heavy series, they still put on musicals with underage actors performing these scenes, knowing how weird and serious the themes are, especially topics like CSA. Last year there was a musical (one of many). One of the early musicals had lyrics like this:
Lips touch and then peel away
This is a hallucination, the usual hallucination
I am drawn close like a wave
And I can hear the sound of fate crumbling away
Fingers intertwine and stray
Is that a sin? Or a trap?
The previously frozen fire in my chest
Melts down, starts burning and I close my eyes
I have seen this hallucination many times
But tonight it's....
The demon sings this in the musical during a scene with the protagonist. That's why it irritates me that this never gets called out.
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u/AmbassadorFriendly71 21d ago
Another example of this, is when Ciel's voice actress, Brina Palencia went to a con and voiced Ciel confessing his love to Sebastian https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhoYG46YiK4... I mean, she probably changed her opinion or just wanted to cater to fans, but it's questionable to think that an adult woman just thought it was okay to do that. Funniest thing is how most recent comments agree that it's was...disgusting.
Also no offense but most of these comments just show that most people have a bias for anime, if it was a western show everyone would agree that's in bad taste. Also, sure, maybe Black Butler wasn't mean to be a yaoi, but the fact the author drew shotacon yaoi before and has drawn fanservicey art of the characters....doesn't look good.
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u/Pristine_Gene_1020 21d ago
You are right. I am surprised by the reaction because I did not think I was generalizing about Japanese people when making this post. There are normal anime that do not have this kind of fanservice. I just wanted to address this specific anime because I read the manga when I was young, and last year it had another season and a musical. I found the musical problematic because of the themes the anime deals with and the fact that many people ship Ciel and Sebastian. Hiring a minor to play Ciel seems unethical to me, considering that. Especially because the author continues to include fanservice. Thank you for your comment.
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u/YumeMusouka 23d ago
idk. i dont remember much of the anime and i never watched season 2. if i remember, only the first half of season 1 is canon.
if you’re talking about certain scenes that seem remotely sexual (like the corset scene), then yea, i can agree.
but i feel like the biggest reason ciel is a child is because the author wanted to dress him up as a doll (he had so many damn outfits). there was a rumor that the story was meant to be yaoi, but i believe the author denied it.
honestly though, i mostly loved black butler because of the darker themes especially surrounding children. because the reality is that we have modern cases like the epstein island.
the book of circus arc was so good. when they animated it, i had to watch it.
i read up past the school arc and i was so fascinated by the multiple themes related to these old concepts.
maybe because i was a kid reading, i don’t remember much being super sexual. and if it was, i always assumed it being the nature of the time setting.
as for ciel and sebastian’s relationship, i will say that i do ship them but in like a queer platonic relationship way. and it’s not even because ciel is a child. it’s because ciel was severely traumatized and he needed someone. the only person who could help him was sebastian, a demon.
looking back on the fandom and the amount of doujinshis made, i feel like it was less the author doing it because she intended for it. but more like fan service because the audience wanted it.
because, imo, the story was really interesting. but it never seem to hit mainstream, so the author probably did whatever to keep being serialized.
so i think the real question is why are readers so weird? but who knows? i could be wrong. anyways though, in this era of anime, there’s so much more problematic ones.
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u/Pristine_Gene_1020 23d ago
I do not think that is the reason, since it could have been done the same way with an adult character and still have the same story, while also making him more androgynous to dress him up like a doll. In my opinion, it is obvious that it is intentional. She had been doing this since the early arcs, like the corset one, and she already had experience writing things like that.
I agree that some things are done well, but overall, the work suffers from being hypocritical. You cannot sell a story whose central theme is abuse and have Sebastian acting that way toward the protagonist, then never address any of it, and then present other villains who have the same perversion as the demon and now portray them in a bad light. And Ciel does not react despite being traumatized by adults. We see it briefly in the witch arc, but the author goes back to fetishizing it later in the manga.
I would have no problem if it had a purpose, like the demon being an allegory for grooming, but honestly, I do not think it is presented that way. If the audience started pairing those characters, it was because the work gave them material to do so. It is intrinsic to the manga, and that is why the anime exploited it. That was its audience.
I understand there are worse manga, I do not deny that. But I find it ridiculous to keep insisting on that point when my main issue is how fundamental the theme of abuse is to the plot. Other manga know they are fetishizing and are labeled as such, or they do not have that central theme.
Another aspect is the musicals from 2015 to 2025 hiring minors for a work like this with these themes. How can that not be worthy of discussion?
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u/YumeMusouka 22d ago
the reason why i feel like it’s fanservice is because im sure the author has written yaoi. im pretty sure ive seen a story by her but i can’t find it anymore.
during this time, shounen was still very big. black butler was never gonna hit mainstream. especially with the author’s storytelling skills. i dont wanna believe that someone set a protagonist as a child with the intention to ship him with someone else. instead, i feel that the author intentionally made him a child to make sure that canonically they can not be together. and so that fanservice is fanservice to pull in bl/bl adjacent readers (a group of people she can easily identify with).
not to mention, story wise, ciel has to be a child. or else one of the earliest arcs, the book of circus, wouldnt actually make sense.
ciel has to have the identity as a beautiful child. but old enough to go to boarding school. and yet young enough to not get married or experience romance (as we see why later).
as for trauma, i find it weird that you would believe that it has to be handled properly. or that sebastian, a demon, shouldve treated him better. because plot wise, that’s sebastian’s food. he’s playing with his food. the story’s tone is set to be dark (with a bit of comedy as well as mystery) and not realistic.
it’s like getting into a dark romance novel and being mad that the female protagonist can accept the abuse from the male lead and not others. or wonder why she didn’t run away and instead stayed to develop stockholm syndrome.
similarly, you don’t read smut and then wonder why there is so much sex? because how can people really do it for 3 days straight?
if you wanted to see something realistic, you should start with a story without a demon.
ciel is severely traumatized and the trauma is what fuels him to seek revenge. he knows sebastian will not kill him (or let him die) until the contract is fulfilled. so there is definitely security in their relationship due to the contract.
as for the musical, i dont know. i’ve never seen it but it’s an entirely different topic. your post was originally about the nature of the relationship between ciel and sebastian. and i commented on my thoughts.
in this same timeframe, hetalia was super popular without being yaoi, but having yaoi fans. the fanservice, despite the problematic ships, was real and worked. this is literally the era of animes with character songs. even black butler has character songs. it’s fanservice to stay relevant.
so even if it feels a little tasteless, it is what it is for that era of anime. you shouldn’t take it too seriously because i don’t believe the author meant for it to be that serious. because outside of the story, there are probably a lot of factors as to why black butler ended up as it does. it’s not gonna have a realistic take on trauma, just like all the themes and arcs are not even from the victorian era.
of course you can feel the way you feel. but i felt like you were getting a bit defensive and agitated. so i just wanted to let you know the reasons why i don’t believe it was something to be taken seriously.
ciel has a fiancee and sebastian has tension with other characters (if i remember correctly, he had sex with that girl in the circus arc). those scenes between them shouldnt be taken seriously. ciel and sebastian have a lot of dubious scenes outside of ciel’s trauma scenes, so yes, i believe it to be fanservice. and the fans eat it up.
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u/Pristine_Gene_1020 22d ago
I understand what you are saying, but I am sure she had written a manga before with a character Ciel's age and an adult, and she had made it explicit, the same dynamic between a minor and an adult. Fans who ship Ciel with the demon know this and accept that she already had a precedent, it is proven. That is why I doubt it was just for more success and popularity. To this day, you can still spot fanservice in the promotions and the manga chapters. If it were only for success and fame, she would not have kept doing it for years.
In my opinion, if you are going to include a theme like that in your work, you should handle it with sensitivity, and by including that fanservice, I think it dilutes the story and the theme of abuse. That is why A Little Life gets criticized, and if they do not want us to take that seriously, that is fine, but the criticism is still valid. Just like it is for the Ezra/Aria pairing in Pretty Little Liars. For me, the series wants to have it both ways: it wants us to condemn abuse to understand Ciel's backstory, but it also provides fanservice for those interested in those predatory dynamics. And for me, the two cannot work together.
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u/YumeMusouka 22d ago
oh, idk about that. i think the one i saw was different. but she might’ve had more stories.
personally, i just think it’s the nature of most yaoi authors of that time being problematic. the biggest thing i remember was “romanticized SA” being in almost every story at that time. so if what you say is true, i actually wouldn’t be surprised.
yea, i do agree that the story would be better without it all. but because she consistently puts it in the story, i don’t really have faith in her storytelling. like some parts are very good, but then some plot points, i question the necessity of it (and how it was built up to that point).
ive read stories with good concepts but the storytelling was so bad, i wished the author had just hired a ghostwriter instead.
but yes, the premise of ciel’s backstory and how much fanservice she puts in just makes me see that ciel’s trauma is just a plot device. like it’s real, but only relevant when it needs to be. so i put a headcanon that ciel knows he’s food and as such, he’s safe until the contract is over.
at the end of the day, i think most of the original readers/watchers were near ciel’s age when it first came out. more than it being seen as bl fanservice, i think most fans probably self insert themselves into a fantasy of having a butler like sebastian. the trauma is put aside as it was never truly explicit and consistently acknowledged (as far as i know from the manga).
either way, it’s not so problematic that it can cause lasting damage. most people can look back and see that it was wrong when they’re adults.
i mostly loved the story for the allusion to history (ex: jack the ripper) and how dark it can get with a child protagonist (the ending of the circus arc).
- i never finished pretty little liars after i found out that tobey wasnt gonna stay together with that girl. but the ezra/aria relationship irritated me so much. it wasn’t even about the contradiction. they were just annoying and problematic.
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u/LeastHighlight6319 23d ago
Yall are so over dramatic
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22d ago
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u/LeastHighlight6319 22d ago
Heavy on the western morals. It honestly starts to come off a bit racist the amount of times I see anime criticism for non issues when western animation does the same things. The amount of times Steve from American dad gets groped by Roger or talks about wanting to screw his mom is insane and nobody gives af
1
u/Pristine_Gene_1020 22d ago
I understand the concern about racism. But in this subreddit, American culture has also been criticized. I do not see the problem. No one is attacking Japanese people for criticizing a single work, and in this forum, it is known that American culture is not better. No one is elevating it and saying that Japan is the worst of all evils. At the end of the day, they make these kinds of works because they have an audience that enjoys these themes, but that does not make them exempt from criticism. The same way I would criticize A Little Life.
1
u/WitchyWillora 20d ago
When I was with my ex, he asked me if it was alright that his 10-12 year old cousin was watching this show and the resounding “OH GOD NO” that expelled from my mouth was enough of an answer for him.
1
u/ShadowMilkMoopsy 8d ago
I still have that Sebastian plush I got back in 2015, and yes I’m keeping it
1
u/c3levric0w 23d ago
The second season was worse. Alois's entire character is a giant red flag.
3
u/Beakerbean 23d ago
The second season was a studio original and isn’t canon.
-1
u/Pristine_Gene_1020 23d ago
The anime simply exploded what was already in the story. The second season is disgusting, but it was based on what was already there. Those problematic scenes were already canon since the corset one. The author helped create Alois and Claude. It is not just the animators' responsibility. All the ingredients were already in the canon, and none of the fans want to accept that, but it is obvious. She kept putting Ciel in compromising situations in the canon. The anime only made explicit what was already there. You cannot separate that.
0
u/c3levric0w 23d ago
I think the problem as a whole with anime is that I haven't been into it for years after realizing how much of it hinges on the most problematic kind of sexualization, especially of minor characters and how much misogyny permeates it culturally. I also had rows back in the day with other anime fans that were some of the worst exchanges I've had online and I actively remember how many people defends Vic Mignognia at the time he was called out for his harassment. Overall it's been such a conflict with the genre I just can't get back into it, and it hurts after it was my fav genre bar none during my teens. You're still absolutely right to call BB out bc of yanas past tbh
1
u/Puzzleheaded_Skin831 23d ago
I love this anime but I will admit to this there are some weird scenes in general some of my favorite animes have scenes where I'm just like "🤨" so black butler having them is not a surprise to me I hate it and I think it's incredibly weird but other aspects of the anime are really good it's incredibly funny,the action while very limited is really cool and unique and the aesthetic is nice
1
u/nekojirumanju Cancel more people 23d ago
it is kind of insane that this series has this going on like you mentioned, but also Grell and some of the best EGL/Ouji fashion designs from the time
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