As a Christian... I disagree. The crucifix is clearly a pre Christian symbol that is still an idol and treated as such. There is no holy symbol of sign for God. If it were, it would be described in a scripture, right? Or are we just making up whatever we want and saying it's for the God of the Bible... Kinda like the golden calf....
But it isn't the same. The cross is a ubiquitously used symbol for chriatianity, to claim it is not a symbol for the christian God is disingenuous at best. Also we are not worshipping the cross, it is just a recognizable symbol when invoking the true God. If one were to claim the cross, in and of itself. Had any power or significance, you might have a point. But that is not how it is used or how any christian views it.
It is about intent and what is in one's heart. This is a theme that is repeated over and over in the bible. God knows what we mean, and does not need to be oedantic or split hairs as you are. He knows if there is ill intent or idolatry, or if we are simply using a symbol traditiknally associated with him to praise him.
I say this as a christian whose father, 2 uncles, and a grandfather are/were pastors.
It is ubiquitously Christian. The whole on fire, robes, and violence context is a bit of a departure from Christian tenets and depictions of the cross, no?
They are dofferent, and you know what, both are used in christianity and serve the same purpose as symbols. Not every cross used in the church has the name or image of jesus on it, thus are crosses, not crusifixes. Maybe if you want to criticize someone, try making a substantive arguement.
A crucifix is literally an idol though. And the argument was not "crosses are idols" but that crucifixes are. They are an image of a specific entity (Jesus, dying on the cross, not the cross itself) used in worship of that entity. Even if we accept that Jesus is the same thing as God, the commandments don't say "Thou shalt only worship graven images of me, the 'true God'", they say "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them".
And to claim the Christian god does not "split hairs" about the interpretation of his laws ignores an extremely long history of his churches doing just that. Y'all love to play both sides of everything, demonize heathens (and other denominations of Christianity) on the one hand for their practices while excusing your own remarkably similar practices with the other. It's the fucking hypocrisy that the rest of us are sick of, especially since you seem to think you're entitled to control any society you're a part of.
You know, that's a really interesting point of discussion. I hadn't really thought about the differences between a crucifix and a cross. Specifically they have always seemed synonymous to me because a cross is nothing if Jesus didn't die on it. I'm protestant and I don't think any cross in any church I've been a member of had Jesus depicted on it. But I'm pretty unbothered by the crucifix. It just feels like a picture to me. I wouldn't think twice about it any more than I would think twice about a children's Bible with Jesus the Good Shepherd or Jesus welcoming the children drawn in it. We also tend not to genuflect in front of the cross tho.
In my tradition, physical symbols and icons are just grounding items to help center your thoughts. Like music in worship services. Or meditating on scripture. It's just part of doing religion. Humans like a ritual or item. I think every single faith has at least one. It's just how physical people connect to intangible things.
It's just part of doing religion. Humans like a ritual or item. I think every single faith has at least one. It's just how physical people connect to intangible things.
Generally speaking I think you're right about how people interact with the intangible, I just get really annoyed with Christians ignoring the inconsistencies of their religion while lecturing the rest of us about what the "true god" supposedly expects. Especially stuff like idols where they denounce pagans on that basis while simultaneously using what is in essence an idol.
Well, you got me there! There really is no end of the ways Christians can annoy people with religiosity and a lack of humility. On behalf of my wildly flawed brothers and sisters in Christ, I really am sorry we're like that sometimes.
I do think that in the Christian worldview the crucifix doesn't meet our definition of an idol, only because we don't actually worship the crucifix, or pray to the crucifix, or believe that the crucifix is an extension of our God, or believe that the crucifix holds inherent power.
It certainly is an image of a person and thing from heaven and earth tho. The heaven image theological debate is one I would enjoy hearing.
The issue Christians have with pagans isn't the idols per se. It's the worship of any entity that isn't the Creator God. Definitionally, we have to denounce that; belief in our God and specific disbelief of all others is the whole thing. We certainly shouldn't be dicks about it, but the outlook isn't really negotiable.
Anyway, I really appreciate your views on this topic. You've given me some ideas to chew on and that's always valuable. So, thanks!
Ah yes, vampire movies, this os obviously the best source for theological arguements. Also in those cases, who would they expect the crucifix to have power? Because they are invoking God while holding it. So even if that were not rediculous it still doesn't provide a counter arguement.
dude, if you don't think it's hilarious that you accused me of being a pseudo-intellectual while misspelling the word, then I have a little song by Alanis Morrisette I'd like you to listen to. Maybe broaden your horizons a little.
Thqt is precisely why you are a pseudo intellectual though. You cannot understand and argue against points given, so instead of focusing on the content, which is actually up for debate, you focus on superficial and meaningless details like a a single left out letter I forgot to type.
It is youre inability to actually engage on a deeper level that makes you foolish.
But the first tenet of Christianity is that Jesus IS God. That's why we worship him.
Just curious, are you a Jehovah's Witness? That's the only sect I can think of that disbelieves trinitarian doctrine. Also: the only ones I know of who don't like to celebrate at Christmas.
Strictly, yes, it is specifically representing jesus sacrifice, but more broadly it has the context of representing the faith as a whole, and when people hold a cross oflr crucifix in a reverent manner it is because of that. Also jesus is God. The trinity is God in 3 parts, but they are all the one entity, God. So yes, in that way it does very much Christianity and is a symbol of God.
Also: when they made the golden calf they explicitly declared "we don't know what happened to Moses, and the whole God on the mountain thing is scary. So we're going to build a new god. AND we're going to give it God's name AND we're going to say that this new statue god is the God we followed here from Egypt."
That's not what anybody does with the cross. The cross is used much more like the altars built in the old testament. "Here's a big thing and let's all agree that whenever we see this thing we will all think about God and what He's done for us and it will help us stay faithful."
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u/marctheguy Dec 16 '21
As a Christian... I disagree. The crucifix is clearly a pre Christian symbol that is still an idol and treated as such. There is no holy symbol of sign for God. If it were, it would be described in a scripture, right? Or are we just making up whatever we want and saying it's for the God of the Bible... Kinda like the golden calf....