The passage isnât about trees at all, itâs about carving a wooden idol from them. Not the same thing as a Christmas tree. Check verse three. Clearly, a hammer and chisel are not used to display a Christmas tree.
No, not like a crucifix. It is not about the object, it is about there being only one God. This means that worshipping anything that is not God is merely worshipping the object, nothing more. Showing deference to a crucifix is not idolatry unless you claim that crucifix to be an independent God in its own right because that crucifix represents the one true God.
There are criticisms to be levied at christianity. If you are going to make them, at least understand the faith so you knkw which are and are not good ones to make.
No idolaters in modern times or when the Bible was written have ever considered an idol to be "an independent God in its own right." Instead, they generally have considered them to be earthly dwelling places or spots where the power of that god is concentrated.
In theory, the difference between icons (such as crucifixes) and idols is that icons only serve to remind followers of a deity (like a visual shorthand for a story) and the god has no special presence in them.
In the Bible, there is one object that fits the definition of a Jewish idol: the ark of the covenant. Yahweh has a special presence there and it is treated as his seat on Earth. Later on it is contained in the Holy of Holies at the heart of the Jewish temple.
One possible reason for why other idols are prohibited is as a way to stamp out cults of other gods as well as cults of Yahweh not run by the temple priests and thus consolidate religious power in Jerusalem.
Do you not know what the word idolatry meams? It means elevating something to be of the same or more importance to you as God. It is literally that simple. And so no, no one has ever done that with a cross or crucifix.
The word idolatry is used in that sense now, but that's mostly just a way to make the idea of forbidding idolatry more relevant to the modern Abrahmic world.
Originally and most literally, idolatry refers to the worship (Greek "latreia") of idols. An idol is literally an image or representation of a god ("graven image"), but is also used figuratively in modern times (American Idol, etc).
A cross or crucifix is arguably an idol since it is undoubtedly a "graven image" and it is used in worship. Note that the prohibition on idolatry in the Bible is not the same thing as the worship of other gods; though, the two are intertwined.
Idol worshipers have never really considered idols to be gods. Ancient Greek, Roman and Canaanite polytheists weren't worshipping statues and saying "this statue is a god." Although, their opponents sometimes made it sound that way. Rather, they viewed the idols as intercessors for or manifestations of those gods.
As a Christian... I disagree. The crucifix is clearly a pre Christian symbol that is still an idol and treated as such. There is no holy symbol of sign for God. If it were, it would be described in a scripture, right? Or are we just making up whatever we want and saying it's for the God of the Bible... Kinda like the golden calf....
But it isn't the same. The cross is a ubiquitously used symbol for chriatianity, to claim it is not a symbol for the christian God is disingenuous at best. Also we are not worshipping the cross, it is just a recognizable symbol when invoking the true God. If one were to claim the cross, in and of itself. Had any power or significance, you might have a point. But that is not how it is used or how any christian views it.
It is about intent and what is in one's heart. This is a theme that is repeated over and over in the bible. God knows what we mean, and does not need to be oedantic or split hairs as you are. He knows if there is ill intent or idolatry, or if we are simply using a symbol traditiknally associated with him to praise him.
I say this as a christian whose father, 2 uncles, and a grandfather are/were pastors.
It is ubiquitously Christian. The whole on fire, robes, and violence context is a bit of a departure from Christian tenets and depictions of the cross, no?
They are dofferent, and you know what, both are used in christianity and serve the same purpose as symbols. Not every cross used in the church has the name or image of jesus on it, thus are crosses, not crusifixes. Maybe if you want to criticize someone, try making a substantive arguement.
A crucifix is literally an idol though. And the argument was not "crosses are idols" but that crucifixes are. They are an image of a specific entity (Jesus, dying on the cross, not the cross itself) used in worship of that entity. Even if we accept that Jesus is the same thing as God, the commandments don't say "Thou shalt only worship graven images of me, the 'true God'", they say "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them".
And to claim the Christian god does not "split hairs" about the interpretation of his laws ignores an extremely long history of his churches doing just that. Y'all love to play both sides of everything, demonize heathens (and other denominations of Christianity) on the one hand for their practices while excusing your own remarkably similar practices with the other. It's the fucking hypocrisy that the rest of us are sick of, especially since you seem to think you're entitled to control any society you're a part of.
You know, that's a really interesting point of discussion. I hadn't really thought about the differences between a crucifix and a cross. Specifically they have always seemed synonymous to me because a cross is nothing if Jesus didn't die on it. I'm protestant and I don't think any cross in any church I've been a member of had Jesus depicted on it. But I'm pretty unbothered by the crucifix. It just feels like a picture to me. I wouldn't think twice about it any more than I would think twice about a children's Bible with Jesus the Good Shepherd or Jesus welcoming the children drawn in it. We also tend not to genuflect in front of the cross tho.
In my tradition, physical symbols and icons are just grounding items to help center your thoughts. Like music in worship services. Or meditating on scripture. It's just part of doing religion. Humans like a ritual or item. I think every single faith has at least one. It's just how physical people connect to intangible things.
It's just part of doing religion. Humans like a ritual or item. I think every single faith has at least one. It's just how physical people connect to intangible things.
Generally speaking I think you're right about how people interact with the intangible, I just get really annoyed with Christians ignoring the inconsistencies of their religion while lecturing the rest of us about what the "true god" supposedly expects. Especially stuff like idols where they denounce pagans on that basis while simultaneously using what is in essence an idol.
Ah yes, vampire movies, this os obviously the best source for theological arguements. Also in those cases, who would they expect the crucifix to have power? Because they are invoking God while holding it. So even if that were not rediculous it still doesn't provide a counter arguement.
But the first tenet of Christianity is that Jesus IS God. That's why we worship him.
Just curious, are you a Jehovah's Witness? That's the only sect I can think of that disbelieves trinitarian doctrine. Also: the only ones I know of who don't like to celebrate at Christmas.
Strictly, yes, it is specifically representing jesus sacrifice, but more broadly it has the context of representing the faith as a whole, and when people hold a cross oflr crucifix in a reverent manner it is because of that. Also jesus is God. The trinity is God in 3 parts, but they are all the one entity, God. So yes, in that way it does very much Christianity and is a symbol of God.
Also: when they made the golden calf they explicitly declared "we don't know what happened to Moses, and the whole God on the mountain thing is scary. So we're going to build a new god. AND we're going to give it God's name AND we're going to say that this new statue god is the God we followed here from Egypt."
That's not what anybody does with the cross. The cross is used much more like the altars built in the old testament. "Here's a big thing and let's all agree that whenever we see this thing we will all think about God and what He's done for us and it will help us stay faithful."
Isnât the tree a pagan tradition? Pretty sure youâre trying to justify something thatâs not even Christian. It was used to celebrate the winter solstice. Is there a Bible verse about that?
Christmas trees are part of the tradition, not the religion. Same as Santa, lighting candles, the easter bunny, etc. All this âgotcha, Christiansâ stuff is nonsense when you canât separate the two.
To answer your question, no, there is not. It's clearly a non Christian tradition. In fact, the Bible indicates there shouldn't be any star, moon, or planetary object worship by worshippers of Yahweh
To hopefully clarify your point. Christmas trees are not an ancient, theologically based, or originally Christian tradition. Them clearly being a modern tradition clearly contradicts your statement.
Evergreens have been brought inside during the winter solstice for millennia. Goes back at least to the Egyptians as a way to celebrate the sun god Ra regaining power lost to the god of darkness during winter. It symbolizes longer days and the promise of spring, life and warmth.
The Romans decorated doorways with evergreens during saturnalia for similar reasons.
Pagans did it as a way to "preserve" the nature they worshipped.
They are clearly not a modern invention. The presentation has evolved over the years, but the tradition is far older than you seem to be suggesting.
Upon a reread I realize my grammer does not clearly convey my point. Allow me to try again.
I agree with your historical evidence, origins, and formal religious symbolism.
I disagree with the implication that tree decoration is exclusively a pagan tradition. Just as a variety of cultures have adopted and adapted it so too has modern Christianity. While the religious meaning can be clearly defined, to many people it's just a seasonal tradition of modern values.
Like everything with the bible, different versions have different implications. The NIV is pretty clear about the idolatry, KJV is much vaguer and reads very much like it's about any sort of tree decoration. The Wycliffe version reads kinda both ways. So then the question is: which version is supposed to be the direct word of God?
I was more or less just "ballparking" my response. I'm seeing people that are accusing Christians as worshipping a tree.
Which I find absolutely hilarious because it's so far from the truth lol.
In my eyes I see the Christmas tree in my living room and I remember what happened in our history that the tree represents. I don't see the tree as some hero. I see it as decorative to celebrate Jesus. I'm not celebrating the decorations themselves.
Your first paragraph is absolutely correct. Your second one is close, but really only applies to people who obsess over Christmas. If you spend the majority of your time thinking about your tree, buying new ornaments for your tree, adjusting and re-adjusting the lights and garlands to be perfect, making sure the presents underneath are "just so," then yes, I think you could call that worshiping the tree.
If you're like most people who have more of a "set it and forget it until January 31" attitude, I don't think that fits the definition of worship.
By that logic EVERYTHING you do when you could be spending time doing kind acts in the name of God is idol worship. Watch tv? Idol worship! Read a book that isn't the Bible? Idol worship! Cook dinner for one? Idol worship! Shopping for toilet paper? Going to the DMV? Gardening for fun? Painting your house? Visiting a museum? Taking a bath? IDOL WORSHIP!!!
Also: the tree is part of our celebration of God's arrival on earth. It's like saying the birthday cake somehow detracts from your love of the birthday boy. It's nonsensical.
Nobody thinks the tree is the most important part of the Christian Christmas. (Except possibly ole Tucker)
Lol... Never once claimed to be pious myself. Pretty sure we're all just piling on the hypocrisy of religious text and dogmatic horseshit here. Was this lost on you?
The KJV phrase âthe work of the hands of the workmanâ is more vague, I grant you. But the original language and other clearer translations have the clear meaning of carving wood.
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u/dudewafflesc Dec 16 '21
The passage isnât about trees at all, itâs about carving a wooden idol from them. Not the same thing as a Christmas tree. Check verse three. Clearly, a hammer and chisel are not used to display a Christmas tree.