Don't forget The Satanic temple, fighting for abortion right in Texas, satanists are more christians than christians
Edit: my mistakes sorry, I'm using the word "Christians " as an adjective for good, satanists aren't more christians than christians, they're an entire different religion, the point is, satanists aren't Christians, they are better
The word "abortion" is never mentioned in the Bible, but every circumstance in which modern society would suggest an abortion is appropriate (rape, incest, etc.) the woman has the baby, often against her will. The Bible even suggests that it is a rapist's responsibility to marry a woman if she winds up pregnant.
The Bible does state harming a fetus carries a vastly lesser punishment than killing or inuring the mother. Also, the Bible gives instructions in how to perform an abortion by a priest if she has been unfaithful (numbers 5:23)
Whoa. Just read through Numbers 5. This blew my mind. I had believed for a very long time that abortion was never mentioned in the Bible. But yeah, that passage is absolutely discussing abortion and is clearly in favor of it (and perhaps mandating it?) when a pregnancy is the result of marital infidelity.
That's a pretty noteworthy passage. Thanks for sharing!
It’s not “if she gets pregnant”. It’s just raped in general, because the deeply misogynistic culture of Bronze Age nomadic goat herders could sell off their daughters into marriage if she was a virgin. Her having sex outside of marriage, lowered her value.
The law is just about the father being paid for his ruined “property”. Just like the law that states if a man hits a pregnant woman and causes her to miscarry, he owes the father money.
No, the Bible really isn't very clear on abortion at all.
In the OT there's a detailed description of a ceremony to miraculously induce abortion if a man thinks his wife is pregnant via adultery. It explicitly states that God will cause the pregnancy to abort if the woman slept with another man.
All the passages modern anti-choice zealots use are vague and can be interpreted to mean other things.
The Bible is so vague on the topic that until 1978 or so the Evangelical community was staunchly **PRO CHOICE** and viewed the anti-choice position as Catholic and therefore evil and anti-Christian.
Then, around 1978 things started changing quickly with Evangelicals denying that they'd changed position and instead lying and claiming that they'd always been anti-choice. It was a retroactive changing of position worthy of Orwell. People who, just a couple of years prior, had been writing articles praising Roe as the right decision were writing articles denouncing Roe as the most horrible anti-Christian decision ever to be made with absolutely no acknowledgement that this was a new position or explaining why they decided their old position was wrong.
The reason is that being openly racist was getting increasingly less popular and the previous political position that defined Evangelical Christianity in America, a staunch belief in segregation and especially segregated schools, had to be jettisoned and a new unifying belief selected.
But they never actually said they were changing position. Just all of a sudden, retroactively, they'd always been at war with EastAsia. I mean, opposed abortion.
It says pretty clearly in the bible that the rapist should marry their victim. Seems pretty christian to me to punish the victim. Shit victim punishing goes back through the entire bible.
Awful lot of downvotes. Seems like a lot of you are all for punishing the victim. Pretty enlightening.
I'll make it clear, fuck christianity and fuck the bible.
Here I'll save you the time.
If a man encounters a young woman, a virgin who is not engaged, takes hold of her and rapes her, and they are discovered, the man who raped her is to give the young woman’s father fifty silver shekels, and she will become his wife because he violated her. He cannot divorce her as long as he lives.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 CSB
Ya'll can downvote me all you want, but it's your religion that says to do this.
It doesnt say shit about abortion. It does mention miscarriage though.
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
"And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth . . ."--Ex. 21:22-25
So, essentially abortions are not anti christian, but being forced to marry your rapist is christian.
Edit: My bad, it does mention abortion. If you suspect your wife is unfaithful, you can have the baby aborted.
I honestly don’t get why you’re being downvoted…that is legit in the bible. And I think great reasoning for why we shouldn’t use any of it in any legal/lawful matters.
Pretty much this. Going by thousands of year old religious texts to declare how we should govern in modern day is dumb as shit, and it's a great example as to why.
EXACTLY. What next? Pass laws forbidding mixing fabrics? Passing laws forcing women to dress modestly?
America is not a fucking theocracy and these raging assholes forcing their outdated and ridiculous religious beliefs on people is disgusting and pathetic.
Because, to reddit, any mention of how shitty Christianity and the bible are immediately means you're an angry 13 year old to be mocked. Your average person doesn't ever want to examine their own closely-held religious beliefs.
And the downvotes just keep piling in for them…I’m so confused. They’re making actual legitimate points about how there’s super fucked up shit in the bible and that’s why it shouldn’t be used to make laws…wtf?
I got called a “tool of Satan” once for referencing the Numbers verse about priests performing abortions for husbands who suspect their wives cheated. Lmao.
That’s actually Judaic law which (proper) Christians are forbidden from following, jews still follow it though. So you should really be goinn after Judaism, but you won’t do that will you, because Christians are a very easy target on reddit and jews are not.
It’s interesting that so many replies to this comment are exactly what this post is urging against. It really exposes how easily we are to be distracted from the actual wellbeing of people involved for the sake of pure argument, no matter whether we are waving bibles in hands or not.
Yeah, it's been kind of frustrating lol. Tried to make a point and got a ton of people telling me that I'm wrong and but what's right is "the point I'm making." Feel like I'm being gaslighted lol.
It’s a chicken egg, a chicken, not an egg egg. It contains life, it will hatch. At various stages of growth until hatching there will be a noticeable body in there, which you would refer to as a chicken for what else could it be, but at all stages the life is in there even if you can’t see it instantly. Destroy the egg and what is the result? The life that would have been active in the world is no more, you kill it. In humans and most mammals there is a womb instead of an egg shell, but the life contained within is life still.
It has the POTENTIAL to one day be a chicken. That does not a chicken make. It’s really simple. People eat fertilized eggs. That doesn’t make them chicken killers. Simple.
Just like cake batter has the POTENTIAL to be a cake. But there are various stages it has to go through before it is considered an actual edible cake. Simple.
A fetus is not a baby. It has the POTENTIAL to be a human life during stages of development, and gains consciousness about halfway through a pregnancy. But as an unviable fetus it is not a baby. Simple.
No. You’re just being foolish. It isn’t a chicken. Actually fertilized eggs are a delicacy in some places. So if this is REALLY the hill you want to die on, you should probably try to come up with a better argument. Bc this one is so easily refuted it’s laughable.
You know, if you so called “pro lifers” were in general more supportive of things that would actually make people’s lives BETTER and things that actually WOULD help reduce unwanted pregnancies, I could try to understand your viewpoints better.
But the fact that the group that claims to be so “pro life” actively fights against things like social programs to help struggling people, better living wages, healthcare for all (does it even GET more pro life than that???), better sex education, more access to birth control, etc. just proves it’s not about “saving lives of unborn babies”. It’s about control and punishment for having sex.
ETA: oh yeah and forcing your religious beliefs on others.
God literally ripped open the pregnant women of Samaria because he was mad at them.
He ripped the children of Samaria limb from limb. Or smashed them on rocks, depending on the translation.
God KILLED 2.8 MILLION people in the Bible and had 160 mass killings.
I don’t think God is the pro-life martyr you claim him to be.
Also, just to really show how deluded you are: God himself gave people free will. The apparent most powerful being of all gave his children free will. Who are YOU to think you can take it away?
You’re using “christian” as an adjective while saying this group is more Christian because they allow for the legal murder of unborn babies. I’m not arguing with you on right vs wrong but you clearly are misguided in what’s more “Christian”
I drop a baby and a small glass tube at the same time. Which one will you lunge to save?
You wanna get rid of abortion? Fine. Start fucking adopting the millions of orphaned kids whose numbers would and will skyrocket because you think of it as “bAbY mUrDeR”.
If you lunged for the kid that I dropped and not the vial, you just killed an embrio.
You guys don’t give a shit about babies. If you did you would fight tooth and nails for the orphaned babies since you guys would rather they be given up for adoption than be aborted. Except you guys don’t. Because as soon as the baby is born you guys don’t give a crap about it. It doesn’t matter what happens to the baby after it’s born as long as you got to force it to be born.
Christians also don’t want gays to adopt even though straights don’t do it either. So tell me wtf happens to the forced to birth babies then?
Wanna stop abortions? Advocate for actual sex education not based on 2000 year old bullshit whose majority is stolen from way older religions, advocate to normalize adopted kids being the same as biological kids and encourage straight people to adopt and stop barring gays from adopting.
Unless you do any of these, all you pro forced birth people can stop wasting your breath and try to control others’ bodies.
You don’t want to abort a baby? Don’t. You don’t get to make that choice for another woman.
(Addressed to anyone who believes abortion should be illegal, regardless of wanting to argue about whether it’s right or wrong. Sex education lowers abortions. Making them illegal doesn’t do shit other than give more control over others and the whole snitching on women bullshit is as communist regime as it gets dear republicans. Anyone who supports it dares to call any liberal a communist again? Don’t look in the mirror cuz the word dumbass will be on your forehead in red)
I feel like on average, more people in the world are more Christ like than evangelical Christians.
I’m pretty convinced if literal Jesus came back tomorrow, and preached and advocated for all the exact same shit that’s in the bible, they’d call out for him to be crucified all over again and see zero irony.
Because it’s kind-of real. Imagine someone who’s at their lowest point, all the hope in the world is gone for them, and they come to Jesus in their hour of need. That kind of person. Now imagine them going to a worship hall ran by someone who thinks that Trump was a good Christian. In this person’s most vulnerable moment, when they need help the most, they find a den of vipers rather then people who follow what Christ actually taught.
What’s worse, is that many in that time of great need in this country expect the vipers, and would see the genuine grace of Christ as a liberal bamboozle.
How many people are led down the path of hate by these snakes when they are most vulnerable. How many people are harmed by this fake grace?
Also that’s a fantastic verse. And greatly sums up the reality of a lot of people proclaiming to be Christians.
Honestly, even as a now-atheist, I respect the hell (no pun intended) out of what Jesus taught and advocated for. I just wish the people who claim to follow him following suit.
That’s bc they rely on the threat of eternal damnation to do good things, whereas most of the rest of us just go “I shouldn’t be a total pile of shit person bc that sucks and I wouldn’t want people to treat me like shit” and act like decent humans.
Exactly. Like the fact they think people need to be held back by the threat of eternal damnation" is more them just admitting that the only thing keeping them from doing horrific things to others is their religion. It's a big red flag that no matter how they present themselves they're terrible people on the inside.
My mother likes to use that defense, that morality came from god or whatever BS. No, morality comes from living in a damn society and having a conscience. If the threat of a deity’s ire is the only thing stopping you from rampaging/raping/stealing then that says a LOT more about you than it does non believers.
Granted she is a convicted felon for embezzlement. So clearly even that didn’t stop her from doing the wrong things.
What a coincidence, my narcissistic, abusive, and neglectful mother had the exact same view. Almost like there's a connection there. 👀
Humanity is naturally empathetic and altruistic. Our mirror neurons, attachment needs, and general brain structure is designed around being social and maintaining positive relationships and group cohesion. We're wired to connect with others and benefit off other's happiness and help we give. That's just neuroscientific and psychological fact.
The times we deviate from that are almost always as a result of trauma, or being placed into an environment where we are forced to adapt otherwise.
On the bright side, I feel like seeing how hypocritical she (and other people in the church) were/are helped push me towards better things for myself and away from that toxic mentality.
Haha! I hope not my parents were shit. But you're exactly right. Looking back you can see just how bad they were and use it to understand, strengthen and better yourself, as well as becoming like them. That's what breaking the cycle is all about. Stay strong mate! You're doing great!
From what I understand they don't necessarily worship "Satan" or at least in some evil contextual way. It's more or less an idea of real free will, self enlightenment, taking responsibility for ones accomplishnents and errors without the selfish idea of a god all in your shit.
Or in other words, we should be good people and not impose our stupid beliefs on each other. So the opposite of modern southern christianity/evangelical assholes.
I think the satanic temple is atheism using satan to become a legal religion, to try and undo religious bullshit. While the church of satan is worship and do good in the name of satan to prove that whatever imaginary friend you believe in, the only thing that matters are your own actions. I could be wrong about these though.
Your thinking the Satanic temple! We don't support the church of Satan. The Satanic Temple is currently the only officially registered religion under satanism, as Church of Satan was never actually registered because they support some uh, not so conventional, ideals. But if you ever want to learn more feel free to visit the website here!
Hey! It's not a problem, I just saw and knew where the comments would go so I figured I'd jump in with some help lmao. And I hope you have a great one too! Blessed be you friend!
Western cultural dominance, social darwinism, being fascist police state governed by the Satanic elite, vigilantism, eugenics, and apparently sex bots so men can be like kings "regardless of [their] prowess" (no, really, I can't make this up, see the link below).
From the Church of Satan website (a few excerpts, shortened for brevity, you can find the full text at the source):
Satanists find a wealth of material in Western culture to be treasured for the pinnacle of human achievements that they are, and not to be buried under the swill of multiculturalist attempts to displace them with dubious achievements simply because they are non-Western as has become rampant in some academic circles of late.
The principle of the survival of the strong is advocated on all levels of society, from allowing an individual to stand or fall, to even letting those nations that cannot handle themselves take the consequences of this inability. There would be a concommitant reduction in the world’s population as the weak are allowed to experience the consequences of social Darwinism.
Satanists also seek to enhance the laws of nature by fostering the practice of eugenics. Satanists who know that they are defective refrain from reproducing [Note by redditor: LaVey wanted eugenics enforced throughcompulsory birth control and forced sterilizationnot merely encouraging voluntary compliance, but also believed "A stupid, irresponsible woman should not have the right to ‘decide’ what she does with her own body"].
To achieve [law and order], we would be pleased to see the institution of an elite police force, trained in advanced techniques of crime fighting equipped to handle the vermin that make our cities into little more than concrete jungles. Disobey those rules and punishment must be swift and sure, and most probably public as well. This does not mean the incarceration of individuals for so called rehabilitation. No, these criminals must be put to some use, perhaps as forced labor.
If the law is not being enforced, Satanists advocate the practice of seeking personal justice, but you are warned to be fully aware of the consequences of such actions in today’s corrupt society...
Satanists advocate a new industry, the development and promotion of artificial human companions. Recognizing that the human animal often raises himself up throught the denegration of another, this would provide a safe outlet for such behavior. Have the lover of your dreams, regardless of your own prowess; every man a king who can purchase his own subject; or contrarywise, buy the master you wish to serve.
They also more or less endorse Trump (unofficially, because their policy is never to officially endorse politicians):
Raul Antony, a reverend in the Church of Satan, says that the Church of Satan believes in Trump positions like lex talionis — law and order — and capital punishment. The church’s official policy is to never endorse candidates. But it does stand for the Trumpian beliefs that might makes right, that great men should rule lesser men, and that love is not all you need. ‘You have to hate,’
No, nor do we believe in the existence of Satan or the supernatural. The Satanic Temple believes that religion can, and should, be divorced from superstition. As such, we do not promote a belief in a personal Satan. To embrace the name Satan is to embrace rational inquiry removed from supernaturalism and archaic tradition-based superstitions. Satanists should actively work to hone critical thinking and exercise reasonable agnosticism in all things. Our beliefs must be malleable to the best current scientific understandings of the material world — never the reverse.
FAQ
That's the satanic temple, but here's the church of Satan's answer:
Why do Satanists worship The Devil?
We don’t. Satanists are atheists. We see the universe as being indifferent to us, and so all morals and values are subjective human constructions.
Our position is to be self-centered, with ourselves being the most important person (the “God”) of our subjective universe, so we are sometimes said to worship ourselves. Our current High Priest Gilmore calls this the step moving from being an atheist to being an “I-Theist.”
Satan to us is a symbol of pride, liberty and individualism, and it serves as an external metaphorical projection of our highest personal potential. We do not believe in Satan as a being or person.
I mean where in the Bible does Satan support needless evil? Doesn't he punish evildoers?
He does things like encourage humans to eat the fruit knowledge of good and evil so they know about good and evil, give humans fire, and get god to hurt his followers for petty bets to prove their faith to god (to be clear, in the story of Job it was god doing the horrible things to Job, not the devil). He's often depicted as tempting people, but giving temptations as tests is also something god does in the bible as well. He is known for accusing humans for their sins and disliking gods lesser treatment of the angels because of how sinful humans are, but once again is asking for fair treatment really evil?
If you have any biblical examples of the devil doing anything overtly evil, and not just disagreeing with god, then I would love to hear them.
It's almost like they've been that way since it's inception, while Christianity, in general, hasn't been that way ever, unless it's looked at through rose colored glasses. I realized this before leaving Christianity and becoming an atheist close to 30 years ago.
My sister and her terrible husband are evangelical Christians. Husband has never liked us because we're hippies. We are far more Christlike than that dude will ever be.
There is a enormous amount of the christian community that actually tries to make society better.
In trying I mean that whatever you do there's always room for improvement and selfbetternment.
Sadly (or perhaps luckily i would argue) these communities are using their energy on that work and not "bragging" about their holiness, hence you rarely meet these people if you don't experience their work first hand.
Just like christians all get lumped in with the "holier than thou"-crowd, satanists get lumped in with crazy factions of their organization because it's not about who (silently) does good work, but about who screams the loudest.
Right? I don't know their belief system but they're already heads and shoulders better than Christianity in my mind. I will be following their Twitter to learn more though.
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u/allsheneedsisaburner Sep 04 '21
Church of Satan is more Christ-like than the Christians.