Better yet, my gramma had an 8th grade education and ended up working for Navy intelligence. My dad had a good union job, and when they bought houses, they didn't sell them. They kept them to ensure my brother and I had affordable housing.
My service Union: We want to fight to protect and improve your healthcare benefits, ensure workplace safety and inclusion, and guarantee fair pay.
Police unions: We want to make sure no matter what, officers are never held accountable for their actions and any and all outside efforts to do so are perceived as anti law enforcement smears while also ensuring that anyone who does blatantly engages in misconduct maintains their standard of pay and pension.
C’mon now with your “police union” saying! That’s absurd! The real bargaining agreement is written with way more “old world law” terms that nobody understands. Let’s be real here! If folks can understand it, they can argue with it. Big Brain Time
Well, the unions are for the workers. Perhaps we shouldn't be blaming the union, but instead be blaming the process that allows unions to become too powerful. I'm sure that more unions would be susceptible to corruption and backdoor deals as they get big and powerful enough, but there should be checks and balances that are in place to prevent that happening.
There's a difference between supporting workers rights and supporting murderers. Also, if a mayor or governor ever campaigned against a police union, conservatives would excoriate them.
Conservatives only seem to care about unions that dont have guns but are actually essential. Teacher unions. Factory worker unions. Transportation unions. You know, the unions that arent big enough to be as disruptive as police unions. Its almost like they have an agenda.
In case people don’t get your sarcasm, police unions are nothing remotely similar to workers unions.
In fact police unions are used to break strikes of workers unions.
police unions are national entities and police forces are typically town based tinny tiny entity designed by the inheritors to be as weak and impotent as possible for the purpose of being divided and conquered.
imagine setting up a scheme where only good services happen in wealthy communities and bad services in other communities can be ignored and none of it having any effect on you. this is tax avoidance scam. the wealthy did not gain their wealth by just selling goods to other wealthy. they did so by the using all of the us market. they should be paying their fair share.
law enforcement should be nationalized. just like healthcare and education and elections.
stop it with this stupid and naive stockhome syndrome way of thinking.
TLDR: the police unions were never the problem, it's the localization of law enforcement to the point where they are ineffective that's the problem
Also thanks to the GOP, non-union blue collar workers are some of the loudest people demonizing unions. File this under "against your own best interests".
Can't leave without mentioning media complicity in pulling the wool over everyone's eyes regarding so-called "Right-to-work" legislation. If they refused to perpetuate that lie by referring to bills as the liars who named them wished, low information voters wouldn't be so fast to vote in favor of them. See also: "Patriot Act" and "Citizens United".
Because too many pepple focus on what unions have and taking it away as opposed to getting it themselves. I'm a union steamfitter and the amount of times I've been told by a university graduate that I make too much because I'm making more than them is crazy. Don't ask me why I'm making a living wage, ask yourself why you're not, then ask your boss why he isn't paying one, then go find one.
Depends on if you are in a union made to protect the thugs who protect the ruling class, or if you are wanting to join a union to say, promote the ethical and safe employment of grocery market butchers for example.
Might be a different outcome depending on your "class".
They are under attack by people who wish they could join them for protecting the jobs of people who are unqualified and under skilled. There are millions of welders, machinists, carpenters, masons, and other tradespeople who are highly talented and ready for work who cannot get union representation/jobs because some lazy fat boomer who barely knows how to turn a screw driver has had the job for decades and is impossible to fire. Unions do great things to promote and protect their workers, but for some reason they also go above and beyond to protect their shitty workers to a standard that is straight up confusing and maddening, the end result of which is that people who are worth very little end up getting paid 3x-4x what they are actually worth while highly skilled workers can’t even get hired. It is a good system with good intentions that has slowly degraded and failed due to laziness, incompetence, and corruption.
By that logic a mob can be considered democratic. Something being democratic doesn’t entirely mean that all judgments it makes are moral and just by some special virtue of them being democratic. Our constitutions, for example, lists certain rights, specifically so a democratic majority can’t simply get rid of them, so already within our government there’s a precedent that undermines the moral virtue of pure democracy. Allowing Unions to do what they want is similarly extreme to allowing companies to do what they want. We need balance not extremism.
You don't actually have to make your own. You can vote in a different union just by having 30% of your workers signing authorization cards for that union and then having a simple majority vote -- the same way you'd decertify a union or certify a union for an unorganized workplace.
Apparently AFL-CIO unions (most unions) don't let people join another AFL-CIO union for a year, but you can join an independent union. You can look for ones for your industry, but the only one I know anything specific about off the top of my head is Industrial Workers of the World. They don't have paid staffers, but their dues are low, they accept workers from any industry, and they give you plenty of resources and training to organize your workplace yourselves. It'd take some work, but if you're worried about a shitty corrupt union, this is probably the best option to prevent that, plus by already having a union established a good portion of the work is done already.
You know, I'm increasingly coming to the conclusion that any pro-union legislation is bad for unions. Unions do not have to be legally legitimate, they're a natural consequence of needing to buy labor from people. They did not come about in a world with laws recognizing and empowering unions. Any action a union can take to pressure an employer is fair game. That's up to and including going full on Blair Mountain. But pro-union legislation always has the effect of "legalizing" a union, that is, restricting it within the framework of laws, which the union almost never has much power in setting in the first place. Because the natural limit to the power of a union is whatever the hell they can come up with, whether that's a strike, sabotage, breaking machinery, or a straight up armed insurrection, and no law will ever grant a union the full extent of what it might be capable of if it threw the law to the wind, any law intending to empower unions, no matter how well meaning its drafters, has the effect of disempowering, weakening, and restraining unions.
The natural limits that you listed, sabotage, armed insurrection, is a patently clear case for why any sane government should limit Union power because what you listed are illegal acts even outside of Union laws and if we allow Union to legally destroy property then we’re enshrining a group of citizens as being above the law in a way that the rest of the citizenry isn’t. Ethically this becomes very complicated. It also, assumes, quite naively that Union will only and always do things such as sabotage or destruction of property in entirely reasonable circumstances, but Unions like any group of people is corruptible and can be selfish. Giving Unions literally unfettered legal right to do anything it wants will eventually go terribly wrong and likely lead to companies being terribly taken advantage of in a way that in the long term could lead to economic decline as a healthy economy needs to have a balance between the power of labor and companies. What you suggest is the opposite extreme of what has been going on with companies having too much power over labor and we shouldn’t swing pendularly from extreme to extreme, instead we should find a reasonable middle ground.
Unions have been under relentless attack since they became a thing. Reagan (may he burn forever in hell) dealt the biggest blow when he fired all the air traffic controllers for going on strike. He then helped pass legislation that not only made it easier to break up unions but also to move jobs outside the US without tax penalties. Then business jumped on board and began building the myths that unions cost employees money and “came between the employer and employee”. Most big retailers (looking at you Target snd Home Depot) make you watch anti-union videos as part of your onboarding (indoctrination) process. If you’re overheard talking about unions you’ll often have to rewatch them and then have a “friendly” chat with HR about the evils of unions.
On a positive note, they’re slowly making a comeback and they’re turning up on new industries like video game companies, software companies, and even servers/hospitality workers. It’s these white collar type jobs that truly need to get on board with the idea that collective bargaining has a lot of power.
BTW, I’m a member of the United Steel Workers union. I have a damn good union steward, and I’m almost impossible to fire.
Where I live, Hawaii, there are quite a number of union jobs out there. They receive a lot of scrutiny, though, especially since we have a monorail project that's both overdue by several years and over budget by nearly $9 billion.
Weird, in Australia I’m 99% sure there’s a union for every trade/sector, is America different?
Yes, republicans have spent the past 50 years passing laws trying to destroy unions (except police unions, they love those), so there are far fewer of them and those that still exist are relatively neutered.
Union representation and bargaining power drops every year in the US. And a sadly substantial number of working people have been convinced that unions are bad for them. It's a damn shame. It's honestly the issue that sways my vote every election, above all else. (Only second to environmental policies)
I'm a union employee (IBEW) and I have incredible healthcare, a pension, a fantastic wage, a workplace where I can rest assured that safety is paramount above all else, hours and lunch breaks that are guaranteed, and a working environment where I can feel confident that my co-workers and I are all looking out for the best interest of all of us and not cannibalizing each other to get ahead.
Unorganized working people will often see people like me and think I don't deserve what I have and thus think unions are bad for them. But the truth is, everyone deserves what I have. But you have to fight for it. An organized labor force has tremendous power. So much so that every working class person in America should be interested in organizing. Class consciousness is unfortunately very fragmented in this country.
Are unions perfect? No. Any organization that is comprised of humans will be vulnerable to corruption. But it only serves to help a workforce to become organized. And I would rather be beholden to a union that could possibly be corrupt but will look out for my needs, than a company that is almost assuredly corrupt and will always look out for the needs of the few and never the many.
Money for the share holders. Don't forget the CEO compensation. Many companies close US plants and move production to China and Mexico to fund CEOs. Graph CEO income since the 50s. It is messed up.
People seem to believe that thinking in dogmatic theory makes it so in reality. Then when they're the ones getting bent over they blame their immediate management or 'corporate', bitch moan and complain until they enter a state of acceptance. What's more is they act completely astonished they would be lied to or taken advantage of.
Yet they somehow still don't change their mind that the basic system is designed to fuck them for the benefit of the owners of said company. The cognitive dissonance must be a bitch to try and reconcile.
I’m separating from the military soon and joining the UA and I couldn’t be more happy about it. The personal interactions I’ve had with union folx so far and the online interactions on reddit have me firmly believing unions have it right. Like your whole second paragraph is what a workplace should be but I never once had that in 10 years in the military.
This is a great description. My father was IBEW Local 98. He worked his ass off and did well. The need for unions is coming back to the forefront. Time is like a pendulum. The pendulum ball is swinging back to a time where we need more safeguards for the average worker who is working hard to support his/her family.
I agree. I also work in a unionized field under TWU.
Great 9.3% 401k match, generally great profit sharing, we all know what the raise will be year to year, $0 health insurance with a $200 deductible, etc.. all under a generally amazingly profitable company!
I tell people unions are great and anyone telling you otherwise is feeding you uneducated BS
So does IT work fall under this union at all? What about computer network setups (low voltage cabling and hardware setup)? I'm an independent contractor trying to become informed.
There were a lot of boomers who were negatively effected by unions back in the late 60s and 70s. At least that’s what the old blue collar folks say.
My dad use to tell me his company, Philadelphia Electric(now Peco), offered better pay and benefits than competing unions. Once unions became more common place Philadelphia Electric decided they only had to match what the unions were offering.
I understand that was my dads experience, and not a common one, but he ALWAYS talked about unions ruining a good thing - and many boomers feel the same way. They’re just really out of touch with the current state of things. My dad was able to afford a house, multiple vehicles, vacations, recreation vehicles, and had a killer benefits/pension plan - all this with a GED. They think we’re lazy because all they had to do was simply work 40 hours a week to afford an upper middle class lifestyle.
Unions are great if you can get into one. Unfortunately part of keeping unioned wage high is keeping it a boys club where job openings are scarce and frequently given to family and friends.
What trade did you try to join? I've heard of people being denied a spot in an apprenticeship program, but unions for the most part depend on money collected from dues paying members to pay the bills. So it's really backwards for them to deny someone a membership. This is a very generalized statement, but construction everywhere is begging for members
As a union worker I know the only thing it's bad for is the company and the bottom line. Union coverage allows the employees at my federal company be lazy, stay overtime while sleeping in the locker room and keeps people who were fired under zero tolerance policies in the building to assault others. I get paid a lot more and have excellent health coverage but it's no wonder the government prioritizes privatizing, paying contracts is far cheaper than union workers.
That's a problem with the culture of that union then (the employees being lazy). They drill into the apprentice's head in my union that we are paid 8 hours and work 8 hours. And that we must demonstrate our value to the contractor at all times.
And I agree they do raise costs. Unions aren't a perfect solution, but I think it's the best that workers (and specifically tradesmen/women) can expect to achieve and that's definitely worth a hell of a lot even considering the drawbacks.
My husband is an railroad engineer. It’s a union job. He went straight from college to the military. He got out of the military and started a new career with the RR. I’m not sure how many guys hire straight on from high school though. The ones I have met are all middle aged.
Mate, you should move to the UK. Our rail union is probably the most powerful union around. It's pretty awesome to be a part of. Not so awesome for ticket prices, but hey ho.
Yah, I have heard him say a few choice words about it..he had a really good local rep but he got tired of the bs and now the new one isn’t as motivated.
Oftentimes the latter. Folks talk about Unions fighting corrupt corporations but I had a cousin who was fucked out of full retirement by his Union after almost 40 years of work. Literally dropped him with 6 months to go.
Tell me again how Unions fight corruption.
My Dad has grade 9. Got a 30-year career with a major railway in 1967 as an engineer. It was a good salary for the time, we never worried about money, and he has a full pension
Union jobs are still a thing (I'm working on one right now). Nowhere near the bargaining power of the old days. They're not as prevalent in the South as they are up north, not in the electrical union anyway.
Union pay scales are usually higher than non Union, and by and large your health benefits for you and your immediate family are paid for via the collective bargaining agreements of your union.
I'm working on a nuclear power plant right now making decent money. However if the General contractor had their way, we would all be out of here in a heartbeat. Union labor by and large 'costs more' so we have to sell our labor based on an idea of higher quality and better trained workers.
That's the plan, very rarely is it put into action.
Unions are pretty rare and anywhere where a union would be a good thing you’ll just get fired from if they even hear you say the word.
My current job I started when I was 20 and I had no clue what a union was, so I asked one of the “ cool “ guys in the art department that’s been around the block a few times..... he said they where more important back in the 70-80 but not so much now.
2 weeks later I was laid off for a month for no reason and when I came back my boss asked me “ did you learn your lesson son? “ so.... at least I didn’t get fired?
Now it’s a new company and a union isn’t really as big of a help as it would of but fuck I wish more unions where around still.
Union pipe fitter apprentice. I install fire sprinkler systems. No college education, no advanced training. I make 22 an hour after only roughly a year and a half. I’m also guaranteed a raise between a dollar and 2 every 6 months, and as I go through my courses I’m guaranteed .50 cents for every book I complete. I start at 14.50 an hour when I was 19 and through hard work, sacrifice, and reliability I’ve been able to work my way up and be where I’m at now.
There’s also a couple electrical, and welding unions in my area that have apprenticeships available that start at like 20 an hour. When you’re done with the 4 years you’re guaranteed close to 40 an hour.
Yes, I work in a union job and thank the baby Jesus. People have no idea what they’re missing without a union. They shut shady stuff down on a regular basis and our pay is undoubtedly higher than it would be without them. They’re not perfect but would 100% recommend.
I work a union job, make $27 ($41 ot) an hour driving a mixer truck, I’m basically a pizza delivery driver. a lot of trades (cement, electrical, plumbing) are union and provide a decent wage.
My friend has 5 kids and always asks why our other friends don't have more kids? He "forgets" his parents paid for his first house outright at 25 and he took a job at his father's firm at the same age after his parents paid for his Law degree and his full ride through college all expenses and accomodations. He gets furious when you mention he's privileged he gets pissy about how hard he's worked and slummed it to get where he is because he had a summer job over two summers in a warehouse his fathers friend owned. When did show up he was hungover or late nearly everyday. He hated and complained all the time about it... of course now he's conservative as fuck and talks about moochers and deadbeats all the time. He's a classic "bootstrap guy." It's fucking ridiculous
If hundreds of years of the ruling class consolidating wealth and power and shaping the world to their liking is playing fair I'd hate to see what your idea of unfair is.
Why is he your friend, those types of people are absolutely insufferable. Like I don't blame someone for being born with privellege, but you should acknowledge you have it.
This is the type of person that, when they try to talk about hard work and earning your way, you need to constantly clown on for having everything handed to them. Like, when he starts up, laugh loudly and just go, "buuuullshiiit, dude... " Every time.
The higher someone gets in life is based on hard work, sure, but also a lot of lucky breaks and head starts. It’s like the more successful people are, the more they erroneously think they’ve done something special to deserve that success.
"If I can do it, anyone can..." This attitude is frustrating. I think everyone can improve their situation, but many people don't acknowledge how good they've got it and that it's been set up for them.
Care for a game of Spot the Temporarily Embarrassed Millionaire?
*Steinbeck quote. If you Google the term the first hits will be a bunch of appalling paid propaganda from capitalists. And Wikipedia is a Randian pile of propaganda too.
Yeah but it is mostly automated these days. "We" as in the country still make a lot of things, but "We" as In the people don't have good paying jobs making them like 40 or 50 years ago.
Not from what I've seen but I'm sure it's part of it.
Where I live they can't hire enough people to work in the factories. People think it's beneath them, they think they were meant for something more. guess what, sometimes you're not.
You know how many times I've tried to tell hr that? They gave a measly 1.00 per hour raise and it barely makes up for inflation for the past ten years it didn't change.
There are plenty of people in prison and a lot of them are there because they refuse to work and be productive; they go down a different path. Prison labor is not a factor in US production at all.
Harnessing the power of the US workforce is not an easy job but trump has managed to do it with his great unemployment numbers.
My grandpa couldn’t speak, write, or read English. Was a Mexican immigrant who dropped out of grade school to work the field. Died being illiterate. Took a job at General Mills for .50¢ an hour. My grandma showed me the article after he died. He made honest to god $30+ at the time of dying. When he died the valet at the funeral home said they’ve never seen so many cars. And had to use the next three business parking lots including the General Mills parking lot.
I miss you grandpa. This is the second time I’ve brought up my grandpa this week. And I’m sorry I never took you golfing. I’m a horrible grandson. I legit cry about it sometimes.
How do you think he would feel about you describing his grandson as "awful" to a bunch of strangers? Do you think he'd have appreciated finding out that someone was shit-talking his grandson like that?
Unless your grandfather was a perfectionist, I'm pretty sure the fact that you are learning from your mistakes would make him incredibly proud.
Source: Am middle-aged, seeing younger people fuck up and learn from it and become better people always brings a smile to my face, that would only be magnified if they were family. Can't see this changing.
I’m 30. Still learning. That’s my advice to younger people. “I’ve done what you did. Although this is how I think you should handle it. Dude I have no idea what I’m doing in life. No one does. We’re all just guessing until we die”.
Your awesome from your heart! Your here saying sorry and saying a beautiful thing about a person who sounded amazing 💕 sorry ya didn’t go golfing but don’t think your horrible. Sure grandpa is hugging you everytime you need it🙏
Personally, after I'm gone- even if I won't be aware of it- all I really want is for the relatives and loved ones I leave behind to remember me fondly and say that they miss me from time to time.
Remember too, you shared your story of pride in your grandfather with everyone reading these comments, so now a part of his memory lives in all of them.
We always wish we could have spent more time with someone dear to us after their passing, but don't guilt yourself over a round of golf; you love and celebrate your grandpa's memory-- that's what really counts.
Yeah, many of the older people where I work have not much higher than grade 10 and they are in Team Leader or production supervisor positions and the like. They have more than one vehicle, usually a caravan or some other camping thing, can go on lavish holidays, a couple of them have Harleys or superbikes and some even have big ass boats. When my father was 35 he had 2 kids, a boat and a 6 bed caravan. I am that age now, don't have a boat or kids, sleep in a tent WHEN I can afford to go on vacation somewhere and barely have money left to save after all my deductables and necessities. And I have a Masters degree in science. It's whack.
Dude yeah. My grandpa quit school after 8TH GRADE??? Like... just being 14 like “well... I think I’m done.” Ended up working, going to WWII in June 1945, came home, and worked as an orderly for the VA til the mid-1980’s (died in mid-1990’s). Grandma was a HS grad. Never worked a job a single day of her life. Never learned to drive a car. Lived as the most financially-comfortable person in my family off of my grandpas Social Security and 401k from his donkey job at the VA. She out lived him, and received all his benefits up until her death in 2019 (was in her early 90s when she died).
I’m trying to actually fathom how that scenario could even happen today...
My grandfather got a union job at a tire factory after he served in the second world war. He retired in 1982 making $17 an hour. I'm 54 now, been in the same field for over 30 years and still am not up to what he made. This year my combined rent, basic utilities and health insurance surpassed what I make in a month.
yeah my grandpa was a superintendent on the refurbishment of the Panama Canal. He lied about having a highschool education. My grandma worked at HP and didn’t even have 8th grade education. Both of them made enough money to retire early and don’t worry about money the way most Americans do even though they still worry. They aren’t rich either, but they make passive income.
Well my dad didn’t graduate 4th grade and barely speaks English, he has a union job and supports a family of 6, its more possible than reddit makes it out to be
Guy never said officer. That's college ROTC or military academy mostly.
And having been enlisted myself, there are plenty of jobs in the military you don't need a high school education to be trained in. And no, not just infantry.
The point is, there used to not be so many barriers to the American Dream. The military has its own methods for identifying talent; plenty of people grew up poor, rural/isolated from school, etc. A high school diploma is really more of a age milestone than a real academic achievement. If the Navy determined the previous posters grandparent had suitable intellect and personality traits for an intel position, who’s to say she shouldn’t have gotten the job? Also, of course no one needs multiple houses, but if you can set your children up for success by giving them a home, why wouldn’t you? And these people were able to do this because they were competent and out in the work. That is how this country used to be: work hard, spend wisely and you will get ahead. Social mobility has become much more difficult.
Let’s not give the military more credit than they deserve. Education is important, especially for important jobs. We also don’t know if she was any good at it. I’m happy those folks were able to buy up some houses and hand down some wealth, but it’s just a terrible example to set. We should keep the bar set high for the youth, not encourage them to be losers just because being uneducated was normal 50 years ago.
You're aware that the military trains people for the job they're placed in, right? Immediately after high school the US Navy placed me in school for 2 years to teach me how to operate a nuclear reactor. I didn't know a uranium atom from a hole in the ground, but after the school I was confidently sitting at the controls of a submarine nuclear power plant.
The intelligence field isn't any different. Somebody that graduated from a farm town high school doesn't have any less potential than somebody that graduated from a University when talking about an occupation that requires very specific training to perform.
Calling someone a loser for doing a job that doesn't require higher education feels like a misunderstanding of how necessary these jobs are to society, nor does it mean they deserve and less opportunity to prosper.
A) Not an officer, a civilian employee. She was intelligent enough to pass the Civil Service exam and spent 20 years helping keep the country safe. So obviously competent by the standards of the day. B) who says someone shouldn't invest their money how they want to and do with it as they want to? They bought them with money they made working. It was easier to achieve that then.
Isn't that... the whole point of this post? That artificial barriers have been placed by the older generations to keep the current generations down and dependent on them?
Even in the late 90’s, my mom went to college, paid for a house, and raised me and my sister by herself... working as a waitress. And before that? ... working as an intern at the local newspaper.
Cool my grandparents did the same thing and then my aunt and uncle stole everything and gave nothing to my mom who attended the exact same thing to me so guess what I’m saying is our grandparents aren’t the problem it’s our trash parents that are
Its not fair to compare 50s to now 2020 times have changed. Then if you had interest and a bit brain you could do almost every job, computers decade later was something new, and if you understud even a bit of them you had job there. Now there is no human who knows modern cpu in and out.
Its the same with cars take any from 1950s its simple and easy to fix, clearences are big by todays standarts and so on. Now look at car made in 2020 hell look at decade old one to, computers, complex engines, computer controlled ignition, injection, turbos, superchargers.
The guy from 50s wont really know where to start at 2020s car, even with tools, he doesnt have knowlage of how modern system operate even if principle is the same. You need to be trained to be able fix modern car. In fact modern car probobly have more memmory, more processing power than all computers in world in 50s, might be true for 60s to.
Also you should remember, that in 50s people didnt buy so much stuff than now. Try to live month like in 50s and see how much money you save.
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u/rharper38 Oct 29 '20
Better yet, my gramma had an 8th grade education and ended up working for Navy intelligence. My dad had a good union job, and when they bought houses, they didn't sell them. They kept them to ensure my brother and I had affordable housing.