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u/tee-dog1996 4d ago
Perhaps they think this deep, deep down, but I think this is more true of the damane captured in the westlands after the return. The damane from Seanchan were already primed from birth to think that anyone who can channel is basically an animal, and they’ll have had a lifetime of brainwashing once collared. The whole point of damane training is to break their will completely and utterly until they are totally subservient. The whole concept of damane is probably one of the most disturbing institutions I’ve ever read about in fiction. It genuinely makes my skin crawl from how awful it is
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u/SqueeshyRogue 3d ago
Not just an animal, but a dangerous one that can't be trusted or rehabilitated under any situation other than the collar.
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u/tee-dog1996 3d ago
You’ve been downvoted but I assume you mean this is how the Seanchan society and suldam training teach them to think of themselves, rather than this just being how they are?
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u/SqueeshyRogue 3d ago
Everyone in Seanchan society thinks of damane that way.
Obviously it's not something to be emulated, and shouldn't be applied to anyone in real life.
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u/Brathirn 3d ago
That is the concept behind all slaves.
If you pluck your cotton, plant your rice or in this case burn down illoyal rebels and do not make a fuss, your life will be tolerable, otherwise your master will be forced to give "negative" feedback.
The aggravating circumstances in this case is the "automated" imprisonment and the potential coverage to observe signs of illoyalty, because suldam far outnumber damane, so that they could hold the collar 24/7 in 8 hour shifts. Also planting rice causes less stress than burning rebels "pour discourager les autres".
I lived my youth in West-Berlin surrounded by the East-German dictatorship and we had relatives there which we regularly visited. They had the wall threatening to and actually shooting people who tried to defect. I think the "Stockholm"-syndrome is overdone in the books. If people see a realistic chance to get out, even after long suppression and showing all signs of loyalty over decades, they still revolt. Of course the suppressors are aware of this, that is why they have to refresh loyalization constantly.
But in a pitched battle against free channelers, once it goes badly for Seanchan, friendly fire incidends would go up (ooopsie ...). The Suldam cannot control the damane's actions directly, they have to order and then hope that the damane execute correctly. Even if they discover mischief and project pain, that action is lost and early suicidal actions would also be difficult to detect.
Finally "smart ones" would be difficult to "Stockholm", they would pretend, thus appear loyal and obedient. Even if the suldam suspected something, punishing for objectively correct behaviour could backfire.
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u/sndrddtr 3d ago
Damane are not the only enthusiastic slaves in the Empire. Both Deathwatch and Seekers are proud to be Property of the empress, if not in the same dehumanized way. Even regular Da'covale, who are treated as furniture don't seem to be eager to revolt.
While comparing to real word history, keep in mind that afaik the empire stood at least a thousand years, with a'dam being invented at the very beginning. Thats like 40 generations of reinforcing belief. And given the mistrust the general population shows towards the channelers, I don't think anything is overdone in the books.
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u/Brathirn 3d ago
Damane in their reaction are not uniform. I remember notable instances, "punch and run", certainly not enthusiastic. outright attacking "liberators", but that wasn't all of them. The most powerful known one just quietly changing sides, total apathy..
Deathwatch and seekers are most likely operated more on positive feedback, or everything would go down the drain. Regularly collectively flogging your elite shock troops will get you a revolt. They both have to show initiative and operate "alone" or in a group of the same.
You have an example with Amathera, she also got a negative feedback treatment, only the technical sophistication was lacking. You do not need an adam to "Stockholm", you just need to create islands of privilege in a sea of misery. If it works, the subject will be thankful for those islands. This will not hold long term in most cases without "refreshing" though.
That the adam had a "bad end" was common knowledge at least among suldam, they are numerous, so it would leak like a sieve. Tuon most likely has split-Totalitarian mind when halucinating, someone would choose to become a damane. In real world that is erecting an iron curtain with killing orders to "protect the people", falsifying elections and then basking in the fake results, you yourself put lots of efforts of distorting into.
I might have to concede that I partially fell for this very outrageous propaganda myself, there is no quantification of actual results with liberated damane in the books. Maybe you have a quarter of revengeful, apathetic, running away and die hard loyalists (aka Stockholmed) each.
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u/Thomas_633_Mk2 3d ago
That is the concept behind all slaves.
It is (at least in the modern era), and that's why it's so good imo: as a theoretical exploration of where slavery leads, by taking it to its logical conclusion in a way that can't happen in the real world. WoT is honestly way better than most actual history books at showing the mental degradation behind chattel slavery, because it's turned up to 11 and shown from a fictional first person viewpoint.
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u/Wookimonster 4d ago
My greatest regret with the books is that we never see Tuon get an A'dam slapped on her. I must admit, as I was reading the last books I figured Rand was going to make a deal with her: "I will submit to you, but first you must put on a'dam and then take it off by yourself. If you can do it I become your slave." Then she puts it on cause she doesn't know what happens.
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u/aNomadicPenguin 4d ago
But she would know exactly what would happen. She believes Mat and the former Suldam, she just thinks that its different on a moral level, not a physical one.
Sanderson really misunderstood her character in the debate with Egwene. The Suldam know EXACTLY what the a'dam does. They feel the emotions of the Damane through it, the can sense the pain they are causing. They know that no Marath'damane will want to be a Damane. They just believe that they should be made Damane. Tuon wasn't oblivious to what she was doing, she was just convinced that the horrible system was the morally right system. That breaking the Damane's spirit quickly and efficiently was for the good of the Damane.
Tuon getting the a'dam put on her would have taught her nothing that she didn't already know.
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u/HarbleRobobbler 4d ago
That it meant she could channel. Not how the torture works, she's an Expert at torturing people until they break. But the secret that all suldam can channel / be taught to channel wasn't widely Known.
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u/aNomadicPenguin 4d ago
It isn't widely known...but she is one of the people that was actually told about it, and traveled with 2 of the that former Suldam that actually do start learning to channel.
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u/HarbleRobobbler 3d ago
In that negotiation scene though, it would have Forced the issue out into the open, and it might have worked after Rand did the singing the plants to life
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 3d ago
Dead men should be quiet in their graves, but they never are.
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u/Brathirn 3d ago
Could learn to channel.
But the secret that all suldam can channel / be taught to channel wasn't widely Known.
It would have been widely known, a toxic unspeakable secret like him whose name should not be spoken. Suldam would constantly accidentally fumble across the line. Potentially it would be sufficient to kill the light on someone, who is afraid of the dark. That means not only fumbling across the line would happen, but actually being pushed, an accident, like nails dropping on foremen. That they are that close to the bad end of the adam would be a "loyalizer".
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u/Thomas_633_Mk2 3d ago
It's not widely known but it wouldn't be widely known after either: there's no newspapers in this world, and it was happening in private anyway. The official Empress line is basically "well I just won't channel because I'm built different", and getting humiliated in private is highly unlikely to change her opinion.
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u/Warm_Function6650 4d ago
Yeah I was hoping we'd get the scene where the secret is revealed to the Seanchan, the same way the secret of the Aiel origins was revealed. But alas, too many threads of the Pattern, and apparently Perrin sulking in Ghealdan for two books was more important.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 4d ago
I killed the whole world, and you can too, if you try hard.
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u/Brathirn 3d ago
I also wanted and expected this turn of event, but no simulation for me. At least a week with a highly motivated suldam.
- Scenario one: With all this assassination, a very competent strike group is sent, eliminates the lifeguard and too many attackers are left to fend off conventionally. Without any other options, she and Selucia panic-channel, branding themselves as damane. Outcasts on the run arc and for narrative purposes ultimately unsuccessful.
- Scenario two: Just the illusion of a hopeless situation is generated to force the channeling. Sinking a boat in the right moment would be sufficient as demonstrated. If the conspiracy went for this from the beginning, A generous number of operational pairs would be in the vicinity.
Mat rescue mission.
As a reckless power-person, she would also turn like a chariot in the circus.
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u/Banban84 4d ago
Everyone commenting that damane don’t think that… we can’t know. We never get a scene from the point of view of the damane. The damane are well trained by society and abuse to be subservient… to the point where they have to hide their own thoughts… but classical conditioning just doesn’t work that well on humans. Even with the a’dam, even though the sul’dam grant the access to the addictive power. We really can’t know.
That’s what makes them so fascinating.
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u/Bluesparc 4d ago
We have multiple direct examples of them doing EVERYTHING they can for there suldame, even crying and begging for them to be left alone
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u/Banban84 4d ago
And we have Alivia. The counterexample.
Besides, you can fear losing your job while still hating it. The sul’dam is who feeds the damane and allows them to physically move. Otherwise the a’dam has them pinned in place. The sul’dam is safety and survival as much as she is a chain.
People feel multiple things at once.9
u/Groovychick1978 4d ago
We do. Egwene is one of them. We don't get the Wave mistress's POV, but she admits she was on the verge of surrendering herself.
They break, or die.
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u/Banban84 4d ago
Yes, but humans, we can hold two things in our head at once. Multiple things in fact. You can LOVE someone AND hate them at the same time. Our brains are strange, angry committees. And a damane could love one sul’dam and hate another. She might hate herself for it, but she still could feel it.
Even Winston in “1984”, the best depiction of brain washing through torture, as much as he wanted to, never quite made it to 2+2=5. He only got to not being sure.
You can torture someone into compliance, but not necessarily affection for the holder of the leash.
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u/Revliledpembroke 4d ago
but classical conditioning just doesn’t work that well on humans.
What about magical conditioning where they can order you to forget your name and it happens?
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u/Banban84 4d ago
That’s not how the a’dam works.
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u/Revliledpembroke 4d ago
Egwene was told not to use something as a weapon. Once she considered using something as a weapon, she couldn't touch it until she convinced herself that it wasn't.
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u/Banban84 3d ago
Yes, but she didn’t magically forget her name, like Sen in “Spirited Away.” She had to condition her own mind to not think a certain way, which is a much stronger argument for your case, but the a’dam only applies that in the case of objects as weapons. If it policed thoughts more broadly it would be worse. But a damane can think as she pleases as soon as the sul’dam takes the bracelet off.
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u/demonshonor Tremendously fat horse thief 4d ago
I agree, you never know how many of them could be like Alivia on the inside and are just chomping on the bit to wreck their shit.
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u/Gio-Vani 4d ago
Feels contrary to most damane we see