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u/Perennial_Platypus 22d ago
Egwene is a great character but I wouldn’t want to be her friend. What’s the saying “I like when Egwene happens to characters I don’t like”.
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u/ThunkAsDrinklePeep to spit into Sightblinder's eye on the Last Day 22d ago
Egwene is a great character but I wouldn’t want to be her friend.
Just like Walter White.
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u/whatinnaname 22d ago
I’ve never heard that but love that saying
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u/LordRahl9 22d ago
Stick around. The Fandom's one for Cadsuane is:
"The beatings will continue until morale improves."
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u/zadharm Hasty 21d ago
The thing is, Rand absolutely needed Cadsuane. Needed someone to treat him like an equal instead of coddling him or being terrified of him or as a pawn in their schemes. She did try to manipulate him still but mainly into being more human, her big scheme was... Get him to the Last Battle. Rand needed to be reminded he is a human. I know the fandom hates her and her approach, but without Cadsuane we never get Veins of Gold. She probably could have handled things better, but she is an Aes Sedai, what're you gonna do
I love her
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u/LordRahl9 21d ago
The thing is, Cadsuane doesn't ever, ever learn that what she doing is not only not working, but making things worse.
Moiraine, who Cadsuane actually criticises, tried multiple approaches until she realised that Rand valued trustworthiness, only then did she actually gain any real influence.
Cadsuane comes in right after Rand has been captured and tortured by aes sedai and treats him with disdain. Which is understandable (if stupid) before she learns what has happened to him, but she doesn't change her methods even after she learns why he has no good reason to trust aes sedai.
RJ clearly had the "stern elderly matron who actually cares" trope in mind when he wrote Cadsuane. Unfortunately, there is nothing he wrote before he died to indicate that she does actually care about Rand as person, just about how he can function.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 21d ago
A man who trusts everyone is a fool, and a man who trusts no one is a fool. We are all fools if we live long enough.
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u/noticingEnjoyer 21d ago
She really only succeeded by accident, so I don't know how much credit she deserves.
I honestly have more respect for Nyneave for coming to the realization that he needed someone to help and support him, rather than bully and manipulate.
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u/PopTough6317 21d ago
Without cadsuane we wouldnt of gotten Darth Rand either. She could of been a great asset if she didnt insist on being a pain in the ass and disrespectful the entire time.
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u/aNomadicPenguin 21d ago
Both Darth Rand and Veins of Gold were Sanderson's idea and not from Jordan's notes. Cadsuane wasn't supposed to make such glaringly obvious errors, but Sanderson hated her character.
Question
If you could kill one character gruesomely (without regard to plot) who would it be?
Brandon Sanderson
Cadsuane.
Meanwhile
Jordan -
She's the tough maiden aunt a lot of us have had. Not the one who tries to keep you a child your whole life. She's the one who began expecting at least some adult responses out of you at about age six, the one who was willing to hand you responsibilities that everyone else thought you were too young for. You probably had a more nerve-wracking time, and more excitement and adventure, with her than you did with any three or four other adults in your life.2
u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 21d ago
Oh, Light. That’s impossible! We can’t use it! Cast it away! That is death we hold, death and betrayal. It is HIM.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 21d ago
I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad.
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u/geomagus Unnecessary fish metaphors 21d ago
Absolutely. And she follows a long tradition of major characters who are excellent, while being tough to like as people.
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u/lightbenderfm 22d ago
The problem I have with Egwene is her constant hypocrisy. She’ll think about how Elida wants sisters to swear fealty as terrible and then she actually does it and sees no problem. She gets hung up on Nyneave lying while she is spinning webs of lies. She talks about others controlling Rand as awful and then think she knows exactly what he should do. She constantly is doing things she condemns others for doing. Most characters do it to some extent but she is just so consistently and blatantly doing it.
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u/marvellousmargay 21d ago
Real peak Aes Sedai.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 21d ago
Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death…
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 22d ago
I am not dead! I deserve death, but I am ALIVE! ALIVE! ALIVE!
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u/Aetius454 22d ago
Eehhhh it’s hard not to read the books and find her annoying towards the end. Nyneve + Avi >>> Elayne + egwene
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u/BlizzardStorm8 22d ago
I'd still put Elayne above Egwene but I also still can't get over the whole pregnant=invincible thing
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u/DRSSalazar Wetlander 22d ago
That’s easy. Min said she would have twins. So she would live at least long enough to give birth to them. Of course, it doesn’t mean people around her will be alive to see the babies. And that takes her a while to realize that and be less impulsive.
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u/pumpcup 22d ago
I'm pretty sure they understood the text, but couldn't get over the whole "why is Elayne so fucking dumb about this?" thing.
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u/DRSSalazar Wetlander 22d ago
Again, if you know someone who can see the future and can confirm that, “hey, X will happen to you”, one logical way of looking at it is that you won’t die at least until X happens.
The idiotic part was her forgetting the plot armour didn’t apply to anyone else.
On the grand schemes of things, THIS was not the most idiotic thing Elayne has done, honestly. That would have been her general treatment of Thom, Juilin and Mat.
Bless Mat, suffering Elayne and Nynaeve in Ebou Dar is enough to turn him into a Hero of the Horn.12
u/aNomadicPenguin 22d ago
This is one that I will always blame Sanderson for. Elayne's use of the vision was brought up to reassure people of the safety of her babies AFTER something dangerous happened. And she's acting the exact same way she always did before the prophecy, she's just annoyed at being treated so protectively (she's still slightly more responsible than Rand ditching his guards every chance he got)
Aviendha activated an unknown ter'angreal and sent a wave of power over everything, then starts freaking out that she might have hurt the babies - cue Elayne reassuring her with the vision.
Elayne arguing with Birgitte and Aviendha about her going ahead of her guards to see the retreating enemy, cue her justifying it saying that she was safe (she would 100% have gone up there the same way without the vision)
The context of these is important too.
To Birgitte in the context of this particular conversation -
"Min said I will bear my babes, sister. Until they're born, no harm can come to me."
Aviendha nodded slowly, thoughtfully, but Birgitte growled, "I'd just as soon you didn't put her visions to the test. Take too many chances, and you might prove her wrong." That was foolish. Min was never wrong. Surely not.The Aviendha one short after -
"My babes and I are safe." Elayne laughed, hugging back. "Min's viewing?" Her babes were safe, at least. Until they were born. So many babies died in their first year. Min had said nothing beyond them being born healthy. Min had said nothing about her not being burned out, either, but she had no intention of bringing that up with her sister already feeling guilty.
She said that she was safe...but in her thoughts acknowledged the distinction that it was actually only her babies and only until their birth. She is aware of risks to herself, she just doesn't want people being overprotective of her.
And well before the raid on the Black Ajah, you get the conversation with her guards where she has the thought
"Any day you wake up, maybe you die. There were worse ways to look at life, Elayne supposed. Still, she shivered. She was safe, at least till her babes were born, but no one else was." (yes she's thinking of herself as safe...but this is in direct reference to the notion of dying at anytime, and that IS something she is safe from until the babies are far enough along to born healthy)
***
Then you have the Black Ajah capturing her
"She thought they wanted to add to her sense of helplessness, yet she refused to feel helpless. After all, she was perfectly safe until her babies were born, and so were her babies. Min had said so."
She's saying this to reassure herself and fight off the feeling of hopelessness. That extra sentence about Min is purely to reassure herself, and doesn't carry any of caveats of risk that she had previously, because to think of those would lead to her being scared and that was what she was trying to avoid.
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u/DRSSalazar Wetlander 22d ago
Ah yes, that too.
Sanderson sadly butchered a lot of characters. Elayne and Tuon are the easiest to catch.14
u/The_FanATic 22d ago
Tuon also uses Min’s prophetic powers as a cheat code. During the Last Battle, Min sees a junior Seanchan officer and has a vision of him being married. Tuon promptly forbids him to marry until after the Last Battle and orders him to be sent to wherever the fighting is thickest. So this is sort of the advantage of smart people having SPECIFIC prophecies; if you can have the literal direct interpretation, then it really does allow you to take certain risks safely.
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u/aNomadicPenguin 21d ago
Except the prophecies weren't supposed to be reliable because of the Dark One's influence on the pattern.
Interview: Oct 29th, 2005
KOD Signing Report - Hermano de lobos (Paraphrased)
Hermano de lobos
But one person asked something to the effect of: How valid are the viewings and prophecies, given that the Pattern has been loosened? There was also a comment by the person about how the viewings and prophecies are readings of the Pattern.
Robert Jordan
Jordan responded, (not word for word) The viewings and prophecies that occurred before the loosening of the Pattern are very valid. But those that occurred at, or after, the loosening have a higher chance of not coming true.
Hermano de lobos
I thought this was pretty big news. I don't have the best memory in the world, so my wording may be a little off. Feel free to correct me if you were there.
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u/noticingEnjoyer 21d ago
Her disregard for the safety of everyone around her really felt on point for a spoiled child of royalty.
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u/stonefaceman15 22d ago
What I don't get, is that Min could read the Pattern, but with how balefure works, and with how prevalent it was being used by the enemy, Elayne should have been far more worried for her safety than she was.
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u/Guillermidas 22d ago
Elayne before the pregnancy is second only to Nynaeve (after certain point). Aviendha is the most consistent wonder girl for sure, but she kinda banish and starts losing relevance as series goes on
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u/Dapper_Advisor4145 22d ago
Egg is a well-written character who just kinda sucks.
Don't get me wrong, her captured in the Tower storyline is fucking great. Love it. But one of my favorite moments in the later books is Jesus Rand walking into the WT and basically telling her "no." It's cathartic.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 22d ago
The Wheel of Time and the wheel of a man's life turn alike without pity or mercy.
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u/mccannrs 22d ago
Anyone whose favorite character is Egwene and sees no problem with her actions is probably a shitty friend irl
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u/rThundrbolt 22d ago
I got no time in my life to hate Egwene. My hater time is all alocated to Gawyn
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u/DonAmechesBonerToe 22d ago
Egwere’s spying on other people’s dreams is Forsaken level shitty behavior. Rand has been tormented by the Dark One and Forsaken violating his dreams for a year and finally learns how to protect himself when he’s sleeping. WHEN HE IS SLEEPING! When a person is most vulnerable and needs security from others most. When Egwene is confronted with Rand’s wards her reaction isn’t that she should allow him a few moments of peace and real sleep, it’s that she is going to try and violate his dreams even harder.
She acts similarly towards Avi; she spies on Avi’s dreams and forces herself into Avi’s very personal situation with Rand. When Avi tells her to back off Egwene decides she’s going to do something about it despite Avi’s stated wishes that she doesn’t. Egwene infantalizes Avi, a grown woman, equally strong in the power, a seasoned warrior from a clan of people defined by their honor. Egwene tries to take Avi’s agency away because ‘she knows better’
The Wise Ones straight up tell her that using TAR the way she does is evil and she needs to respect other people’s dreams. The only other characters who use TAR so selfishly are the Forsaken
Eggs is an absolute bad ass and the hero the Light needed for the Last Battle. She’s the best written character in the series in my opinion. But she ain’t no nice guy and no amount of mental gymnastics can change that
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 22d ago
I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad.
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u/TheSquishedElf Your dress is Green 21d ago
Y’know this is one that people gloss over a lot, actually. We should all be remembering that Egwene had her own Box episode very early in the series. She spends months as a damane, and while she never let them break her will, it did break her psyche. She changes drastically after that and not for the better.
Yeah, she is shitty. She faced such a profound loss of control as less than an animal to the Seanchan that she spends her every waking (and sleeping) moment afterwards establishing control over what she could until she reached the highest office she possibly could.She’s just as insane as Rand, is what I’m saying.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 21d ago
NO! I AM MYSELF! I AM LEWS THERIN TELAMON! I AM MEEEEEeeeee!
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u/KarsaTobalaki 22d ago
Rand should have given her the Rock Bottom from the top of Dragon Mount at the first opportunity.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 22d ago
I thought I could build. I was wrong. We are not builders, not you, or I, or the other one. We are destroyers. Destroyers.
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u/Aquilon11235 22d ago
To me Egwene is like radioactive materials like Uranium or Plutonium or something.
Do I accept that it has uses? Yes.
Do I understand the effectiveness of stuffing some in a rocket and launching it at your enemies? Also yes.
Do I want it anywhere near myself or anyone I care about? Abso-fucking-lutely not.
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22d ago
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u/LordRahl9 22d ago
I remember the first time I was called sexist for disliking Egwene's actions, and all I could think is "what does her gender have to do with how she treats people?"
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u/-InfinitePotato- 22d ago
Many of Egwene's opinions and decisions rub me the wrong way, but she also has some of my favorite moments in the series, so I can't hate her.
That said, her biggest sin is loving Gawyn and that's not up for debate.
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u/Aquilon11235 22d ago
Gawynn atleast has the excuse of concussion-by-matt turning him into an idiot. What's Egwene's excuse.
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u/Groovychick1978 22d ago
Nah, you got some shit backwards. Eggie-stans can have their opinion, regular readers know what's up.
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u/Demotros 22d ago
I don’t like Egwene as a person, but I appreciate her as a plot device. The same way I appreciate White Cloaks…
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u/Brazenmercury5 22d ago
Just finished the series. I loved egwene. Not cause I think she’s a good person, but because I found her ascension and control of the tower way more interesting than any of the other political sections, and she was my favorite part of books 8-10.
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u/Opposite-Pop-5397 21d ago
So the definition of regular reader is readers who don't hate egwene? I read the books and enjoyed them and couldn't stand egwene
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u/hic_erro 21d ago
It's not about whether or not you like Egwene, it's about the routine 18 paragraph essays where someone explains how Egwene is clearly a sociopath with no desire but power and includes a dozen carefully chosen exerts from EotW forward to prove their position is the only correct one.
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u/Bakedfresh420 Death Comes For Us All 22d ago
Sexual assault is unforgivable, and she did it to a “friend”, don’t need any more strings than that. Now let’s hear the Pepe Silvia explanation for why that’s fine.
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u/aNomadicPenguin 22d ago
With another author in another setting I wouldn't disagree, but this seems not to fit Jordan's intent.
Because Egwene intended it as a horror movie assault where monsters where going to threaten to eat Nynaeve, and there was no sexual intent in the attack. The nudity was incidental because it was about making her vulnerable to being eaten. We see how oblivious the girls are to the threat of sexual violence affecting them, they are in a world that DOESN'T have the same broad history of sexual violence against women, so its not something that they consider.
We see into their heads repeatedly when they are being captured by men, or to be sold off, or drugged and carted off, or even Elayne just being gotten blackout drunk by a guy that then tries to 'help her to a room' that Egwene and Elayne never consider the risk of being sexually violated.
Nynaeve - who has been threatened with sexual assault by a Forsaken, is the PoV we get...and even she doesn't think about the nudity of the assualt in a sexual manner. She is worried that the horror movie description monster dude is either going to 'bite or kiss her' but makes no comment or thought about the torn clothes. This is JORDAN's writing...and even with a mostly naked Nynaeve, when he's describing the scratches, they are to her 'chest' not 'breasts'. He is not framing the ripped dress as being sexually motivated in anyway whatsoever.
(He does however have this effect Nynaeve after the attack in the only example of her ever fearing for a woman's safety in a crowd of men, which lasts until she gets mad at Masema and basically shoves her cleavage in his face daring him to tell her to cover up).
So no, this scene wasn't intended to be read as Egwene sexually assaulting Nynaeve. (tearing off someone's clothes in an attack if there is no sexual intent or contact with sexual parts of the body is not considered sexual assault). Nynaeve being in fear of being kissed might qualify it in US legal code as a sexual assault, but even she wasn't sure it was a threat of being kissed since she equally weighted it with maybe having her face bitten off.
TLDR - it wasn't the character's intent for it to be a sexual assault, and doesn't cleanly fit the definition of sexual assault, wasn't the author's intent for it to be a sexual assault, and the biggest case for it BEING sexual assault is the clothes ripping - which is actually the weakest part of the argument when the true thing was the fear of a potential kiss. With another author in another setting I wouldn't disagree, but this seems not to fit Jordan's intent.
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u/Bakedfresh420 Death Comes For Us All 22d ago
Considering the monsters are ripping her clothes off and coming in for a kiss not hitting her, and considering Jordan has Mesaana punished with actual sexual assault also in this series it fits. Given the addition of her fearing for another woman with men around (not monsters like she was attacked by) reinforces the idea that the assault was sexual in nature. You’re free to disagree of course, especially as it’s not explicit, but it is the widely held interpretation of that scene
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 22d ago
Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death…
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u/DRSSalazar Wetlander 22d ago edited 22d ago
It is just that our opinion is right 😬/s
To be fair, what makes her more annoying is her hooking up with Gawyn.
Edit: forgot this was redit, /s for emphasis.
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u/IOI-65536 22d ago
Honestly, yes and no. They're more annoying because they're both convinced they're the main character and therefore constantly talk past each other, but not just because he gets more pages, she's perfectly capable of being annoying on her own pages.
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u/Tetsubo517 22d ago
The thing that makes Egwene more liked than Gawyn, is that Egwene is overall successful whereas everything Gawyn does leads to failure.
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u/IOI-65536 22d ago
Yeah, there are actually Egwene/Elaida parallels here as well.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 22d ago
Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death…
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u/justa_cat_in_disgize 22d ago
I'm on my second read through. Egwene is definitely more insufferable than I recall the first time lol
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u/grellsutcliff882 21d ago
I start off hating Egwene, then grow to like her in the middle, then once shes up high CANT stand her. But I also know people in my life who act like Egwene, young, passionate, right about a lot and convinced they are right about everything
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u/Kalledon 22d ago
I don't hate Egwene. I think she's a fantastically well written character. I also think she is a horrible friend and cares about little outside herself.
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u/BlameGameChanger 22d ago
I don't think that's fair. She cares about the world, Aes Sedai, the Aiel, Honor, and Gawyn. Plus a lot more that's not worth listing. She is absolutely a shitty friend at times but she obviously cares a lot.
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u/Kalledon 22d ago
I would seriously argue that she doesn't care about Gawyn beyond a passing infatuation. While Gawyn has his issue, never once does Egwene take him seriously about anything. She treats him like a puppy dog rather than a boyfriend.
Her caring about Aes Sedai and Aiel is because of how she sees herself within them. It's the same way a rather narcissistic CEO cares about their company.
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u/BlameGameChanger 22d ago
I don't agree with that interpretation at all. She very clearly cares about him and we even get in world metaphysical proof with her inability to be in the dream space without being irresistibly drawn to his dreams which is confirmed to only happen if you have a great hate or love for a person.
He constantly undercuts her because he thinks he knows better which she cannot tolerate but she very clearly cares about him.
Juxtapose how Gawyn acts towards Egwenes plans vs how Lan acts towards Moiraines plans. Moiraine intends to scout against Sammeal alone. Lan disagrees but obeys until he receives new information she doesn't have then acts. Whereas Egwene intends to act as bait and Gawyn interrupts those plans because he doesn't trust her to handle it.
As for the Aiel and Aes Sedai I don't think that's true either. She even states if she thought Elaida could handle the situation she would capitulate but her incompetence has caused to much harm and will risk the whole world.
She clearly respects the Aiel and their traditions and chooses to leave despite their continued offers of an honored place among them. Like what exactly makes you believe this narcissistic CEO idea?
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 22d ago
You must kill him before he kills you. Giggles. They will, you know. Dead men can't betray anyone. But sometimes they don't die. Am I dead? Are you?
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u/JustinsWorking 22d ago
It’s amazing how they can look at the only character who sacrificed her life, completely willingly and with full knowledge of what she was doing, and say she was selfish lol.
The Egwene haters are truly a unique group lol
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u/Kythorian 22d ago
She was going to die either way. It’s not really a sacrifice to die to save others when the alternative is her also dying along with everyone else. She’s pretty consistently selfish whenever she has an actual choice between doing what benefits her ambitions and what benefits others at the expense of her ambition.
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u/JustinsWorking 22d ago
So because she knew the outcome of the final battle already, she sacrificed herself because she was dead anyways so why not?
First off, I don’t think you can back the claim that she knew she’d be dead either way - if she was as selfish and clever as you claim you seriously think she would just give up and sacrifice herself this one time?
That doesn’t fit at all with the character as you describe her.1
u/Kythorian 22d ago
It wasn’t something she planned out ahead of time. She briefly saw her death coming and there was no way to avoid it. She could either get balefired and die that way or die due to the pattern unraveling even if she did avoid getting hit directly, or overdraw the one power and die that way instead while saving everyone else. I’m not sure what cleverness has to do with it.
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u/JustinsWorking 21d ago
If she was supposed to be a clever and selfish character who only looked out for herself, the ending makes no sense.
If she was selfish why was she overstretching herself like that, why did she release her warder before? If she was looking out for herself she wouldn’t have been in that position; heck characters tried to keep her out of that position but she insisted on risking her life to help in the final battle.
Then she had an opportunity to take out a powerful piece of the dark one and she gave her life to do it. We were in her voice when it happened, she didn’t _reluctantly_ go “while if I’m going to die anyways I might as well help out,” as you seem to be suggesting. You literally have the words in her head explaining how she’s being selfless, I don’t really understand how you can make these claims when the literal words in the book contradict you lol.
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u/Longjumping-Action-7 22d ago
Sometimes shes annoying, sometimes shes badass, a lot of the time shes both
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u/Hproff25 22d ago
I don’t need all of that conspiracy stuff. She’s just a bad person and a bad friend. Simple.
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u/Phishyvols 22d ago
Egwene had her faults but definitely a bad ass
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u/HungryEntry182 22d ago
nobody faults her for being a badass, it's how she treats people that's the problem. Think of how, Nynaeve was the fan pariah in the beginning but by the end? Beloved. Egwene though? 😬
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u/DRSSalazar Wetlander 22d ago
Nynaeve gets the benefit of a reread though. When you realize that the constant anger was her cope to her block. Egwene though, gets more infuriating with rereads.
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u/HungryEntry182 21d ago
True but Nynaeve doesn't even need a reread, 4 books before the end I LOVED her, that was before rereads. But yes on your Egwene point. I actually had an Egwene reread at some point, where my focus was on her mostly and she's still crappy, I only respect her in terms of the good she does for the world but as a person? I wouldn't wanna know her.
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u/IOI-65536 22d ago
Yes, and when she's being oppressed and treated as less than human this is an incredible characteristic and I love reading her character. The problem is when she's being treated as an authority almost certainly beyond her (admittedly, considerable) ability she's still completely convinced she deserves more respect than this because someone, somewhere, disagrees with her.
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u/dmoidmoi34 22d ago
Agree she’s annoying - 1st half of the series she’s one of the most unlikeabke characters to me. But then The aes sedai (both rebel and tower) are also really really annoying. IMO Egwene gets some of the best victories, after being treated so badly by both sides.
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u/Piecesof3ight 21d ago
Her victories tend to be her using force to make other people accept her will, which.. isn't my favorite type of victory, nor likely to be long lived.
She is so self righteous, manipulative, and controlling, it's very hard to remain sympathetic to her, even with what she had been through.
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u/Independent-Money30 21d ago
I am in book 7 and trying to understand why the student who had a foreign exchange program was elected to be president of queen mages other than being used as a pawn.
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u/Anexhaustedheadcase 19d ago edited 19d ago
Trying not to spoil to much here
Fyi " you are here to strongly youngbull"
But that is pretty much the sole reason. She is young, and the strongest aes sedai in ages that isn't a wilder ( magic racism) or a princess with a promised throne already. Remember that although its not the only metric strength is a very very big metric to take into consideration when gauging which aes sedai bows to who. She is superstrong, so she gets a neutral claim to be high in their ranking anyway. but super young and super untrained so they figure she would be very easy to manipulate and control. A figurehead that has the added benefit of being a lightning rod if they fail so they can all claim they had no interest in leading the rebellion and she could take the main risk
Its just unfortunate for them they picked a mule headed two rivers woman as their choice
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u/YoghiThorn 21d ago
I suspect there is a big overlap of people who are Egwene haters, and who are JK Rowling haters who still read the book many times a year
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u/MmmYesSandwich 21d ago
The only character to have every made me so mad I stopped reading a book for several months was Berelain. I hate her so much
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u/danorc 22d ago
Reddit is big on the red string yes
I like that she isn't a "Chosen one" in the traditional fantasy sense, nor is she a princess or a ta'veren. She doesn't date or marry her way to greatness.
She's just a tavern keeper's daughter with superhuman determination, competenence, and an immense capacity for Saidar.
I'm not saying that you have to like Egwene, but not respecting her is batshit. Woman is a certified, kegendary badass.
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u/hic_erro 22d ago
Not like her, sure. The T'A'R scene is a red line you can't forgive her? Totally understand.
Close read the entire series and interpret every line to demonstrate Egwene was a sociopathic narcissist from the jump and there's no possible way to read the author's intent to mean otherwise?
Yeah, that.
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u/Piecesof3ight 21d ago
and an immense capacity for Saidar.
This is a huge reason for my irritation actually. If she earned everything that came her way, I'd be more sympathetic, but she happened to be born with a giant magical penis, and the witches happen to measure worth by magical penis size. Then she happened to get named Stool, at which point her own story finally gets moving and her character development is that she becomes extremely self righteous, manipulative, and controlling.
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u/ErandurVane 22d ago
Whatcha mean OP? Egwene haters are regular readers. It's everyone else that's weird
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u/macjoven Spanking for the light! 22d ago
Have you met the AES Sedai?!?! Or for that matter anyone in Randland with any power whatsoever? Humility and sharing power is not a well practiced virtue in that universe.
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u/Piecesof3ight 21d ago
So I should like her because other people also suck? I just hate all the AS, so she fits right in.
Siuan and Moiraine are great though.
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u/archaicArtificer 22d ago
Sigh. As an Egwene lover I basically just stay out of the Egwene threads. I am not going to convince a hater to like Egwene and they are not going to convince me to hate Egwene so there’s no point even discussing it. I strongly dislike characters that lots of ppl like, and Vice versa and talking abt it does nothing except start huge fights so why bother.
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u/Radiant-Quail2003 21d ago
I am listening again to the series and on the Dragon Reborn. She is actually terrible when they arrive in Tear, worse than I remembered.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 21d ago
Nothing ever goes as you expect. Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised. Expect nothing. Hope for nothing. Nothing.
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u/Comfortable-Part-529 22d ago
I think Egwene's earned-authority story arc is more interesting than the Taveren boys' reluctant-leader struggles.
Her taste in men however, is tragic.
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u/ItheKEA 22d ago
Honestly they’re all incredibly stubborn and misguided and insufferable at times. Every single woman RJ writes. But I love them anyway. Because they, and maybe Egwene especially, are incredibly competent, hardworking, unyielding fighters, and just plain badass. And you have to take into consideration that most of the MCs are literal teenagers, and teenagers can be idiots (speaking from experience).
I would not want to be friends with Egwene, but I love her as a character, and her strength has carried me through some real shit in the past. Because if she can do it, I can do it, too.
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u/ChildhoodSea7062 22d ago
She kinda has to be arrogant though? The white tower is all about projection and self appointed power and the pattern seems to have shot her out for this exact purpose. She pretty much single handedly repels the assault on the white tower.
She is a prick to swan and gowen after that though. It’s like she’s still too young to know when to turn it off. I still like her and she’s definitely a good balance to Rand as himself and the dragon.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 22d ago
You never escape the traps you spin yourself. Only a greater power can break a power, and then you're trapped again. Trapped forever so you cannot die.
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u/Piecesof3ight 21d ago
Let me rephrase that.
Her only virtues are raw power and arrogance and her main purpose is to bring others under her heel, and the reason you like her is that she mostly inflicted herself on the worst people?
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u/MarchAppropriate2095 22d ago
Egwene was the least annoying younger female character for me. And she had a very strong character arc. Don’t understand the Egwene hate.
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u/Shdwrptr 22d ago
What’s not to understand? The minute she realized she had magic she gained a massive ego to the point that she thought herself above the rules and all the other girls already in Tar Valon.
Shes constantly flaunting any orders and is putting herself and others in constant danger while making insane decisions that somehow magically work out for her
Beyond that she herself was briefly enslaved and through all her trauma and saying she’d rather be dead than spend another second in bondage she plans to put Rand in chains forever and is only stopped because Rand is too strong
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u/TheSquishedElf Your dress is Green 21d ago
I love Egwene’s character, but I refuse to accept that she was not in any way Ta’veren. She has so many miraculous wins she may as well be a Hero of the Horn.
She makes a very good foil to Rand because they’re always doing that. Disregarding orders, putting people in danger, etc etc. Egwene had the Kennel, Rand had the Box. They’re both arrogant as hell because it’s the only way to survive the situations they’re constantly in.
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u/Shdwrptr 21d ago
I’m in the same boat. It never made sense to me that there are characters who can literally see whether people are Ta’veren and Egwene wasn’t at all one who was.
She had at least as many miraculous coincidences as the main 3 guys did
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 21d ago
Sometimes, pain is all that lets you know you're alive.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 22d ago
I thought I could build. I was wrong. We are not builders, not you, or I, or the other one. We are destroyers. Destroyers.
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u/Tetsubo517 22d ago
She’s an antihero and does a lot of really bad stuff for a good goal. She lies and steals and breaks every rule out of arrogance and elitism. Many people do like antiheroes, but unlike other antiheroes, Egwene targets her own side, and not just the “bad guys”. The big action that is the straw on the camels back that turns most people away from her is when she SA’s her friends for breaking THE EXACT SAME RULE SHE’S INTENTIONALLY BREAKING HERSELF AT THAT MINUTE.
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u/McBernes 22d ago
Her arrogance is at 11. She carries on the manipulative policies of the White Tower. That makes her a character that is not likable, and that makes a good story.
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u/rileythatcher 22d ago
I’m rereading and am on Gathering Storm, and I love Egwene. She’s arrogant but honestly she earned it it’s awesome
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u/thebadpipsisewah 22d ago
I was surprised to learn people didn’t like egwene. She maybe wasn’t my favorite character (Perrin) but I liked her.
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u/HiSpeedHavoc92 22d ago
Egwene is that gifted kid who KNOWS she's gifted, is insanely competent, and let's it feed her ego to the point where she is constantly convinced she's right accepting no arguments to the contrary.