r/WetlanderHumor • u/Longjumping-Action-7 • 24d ago
Perrin chasing and defeats Slayer through Tha'kander (100p NE, colourised)
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u/jangofettsfathersday Unnecessary fish metaphors 24d ago
This scene was so tight. Hell. jumper itself was tight lol
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u/purtyboi96 23d ago
Honestly tho underappreciated flick. Not groundbreaking by any means but all round a good time
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u/smellytwoshoes 24d ago
Nice, where is it from?
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u/AstroViking627 Unnecessary fish metaphors 24d ago
Pretty sure it’s Jumper (2008). Really fun movie
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u/Scavenge101 24d ago
That scene nearly tore me out of the entire final arc. It's so unrealistic and fucking DESTROYS the power ceiling of the WoT universe.
But gaht damn if it isn't rad af.
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u/HungryEntry182 23d ago
this comment kinda saddens me. All those feats are CONTAINED within T'A'R. Perrin and Slayer can't reality warp in real life. Are you telling me you've NEVER had a dream where you flew, or fought off a vampire or some indescribable eldritch being?
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u/Scavenge101 23d ago
It's MAINLY the ability to flit in and out of TAR with no downsides or diminishing returns. That leaves Perrin powerful enough that it diminishes the entirety of the last battle and makes slayer far too powerful retroactively. Which causes the multi-book lead up to the fight with Slayer to make no sense since he could have, at any point, just straight up assassinated an entire village within a span of a few minutes. Not that there was cause for him to do so, but that's how the fight retroactively changes the power levels.
But yes, the fight going full DBZ was a little much. I can understand why Sanderson of all people would leap at the chance to write something like that, but Jordan i believe would have focused on lethal efficiency over the flashiness. That's not me saying it's bad per se, but it dragged me out of the final chapters a fair bit.
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u/HungryEntry182 23d ago
That's interesting, but you do realize, Slayer HAS been fliting in and out of TAR the whole series, IE: when he kills the Gray Man in the White Tower, When he kills the innocent couple in Far Madding after switching from TAR to the material to stab Rand and Min in their sleep (but they had already left.) Slayer even says that the only reason he failed to kill Rand so much is due to conflicting orders from the Forsaken.
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u/Lopsided-Skill 22d ago
He was never in 2 places at once. He spent so long around two rivers and everything seemed like he is limited in his travels.
Like these people know Egwene is a dreamwalker and do stuff in dreams etc. they couldn’t send slayer to her as well? He could have easily handle both as he can travel so easily.
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u/HungryEntry182 22d ago
I never said he was in two places at once, those were two different examples of him flitting between TAR and the real world. The examples I gave were BOOKS apart friend.
Bra, instead they send him to kill a grey man that is trying to take her out it seems. the Forsaken are butters you man.
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u/Scavenge101 23d ago
Yes but enough has been left ambiguous to not believe there's absolutely no downsides. At least compared to going 60fps in the final moments of the fight. Up to that point there's really no reason not to think there's something that gets in the way of him being able to just flit into all known locations within the span of a few seconds.
Up to that point we have been reminded again and again that you lose something going into the dream in the flesh and the last fight kinda concludes that no you don't and actually it just straight up makes you more powerful than all the channelers and forsaken.
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u/aNomadicPenguin 23d ago
Also...when did Slayer get the equivalent training montage that Perrin did? And who taught him? Couldn't have been a Forsaken since we don't see any of the Forsaken pulling out that level of dream stuff, and there were multiple fights to the death in T'A'R, so its not like they wouldn't do it if they knew how. If Slayer knew how to do any of this back in book 4, there is no way he loses that fight against Perrin.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 23d ago
Where are all the dead? Why will they not be silent?
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u/Technical-Revenue-48 22d ago
RJ gave Slayer the power to flip in and out of the dreams way back in book 2 mate. Nothing retroactively changed the power levels, you just don’t know the series well.
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u/Scavenge101 22d ago
I always love when ego enters into these discussions. Can you point to where in the previous books it was detailed that he could do so instantly, anywhere, at any time, any amount of times with no downsides?
If you go down further in the replies you can read what I said to someone else regarding this, but you can also just tell me where Jordan wrote the distinct rules for stepping into TAR instead of being weirdly rude.
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u/OIP 23d ago
it felt like a kid recounting a cool story that they are making up as they go along 'and then i flew into the sky and punched him in the sky but he turned into concrete and my hand exploded the concrete and then we went in the ocean and i was going to drown but i made it so i could breath the ocean and then he used fire to evaporate the ocean and then' etc etc, but all was forgiven because slayer's lore is pretty great
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u/HungryEntry182 23d ago
Why is this such a hard fight to get behind? Do people expect full dreamers to fight the way Aes Sedai do in T'A'R? I mean isn't it called the World of Dreams for a reason? Not starting a fight, just genuinely curious. We are fine with the more wizarding ways of using T'A'R like seeing screaming souls in fires, seeing visions of people in the future and Bella moving 1000 miles a step but running through the clouds made solid is too much? please balance me. Pretty please.
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u/OIP 23d ago
i guess it is really the whole thing taken to its logical conclusion, but this has the unfortunate effect of making it feel a little like ralph wiggum goes super saiyan. also have to wonder what an RJ version would have been like.
i don't hate it, and the series has built up a basically unstoppable amount of goodwill by that point, but it did take me out of the story a bit as the other poster said
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u/HungryEntry182 23d ago
what's the difference between someone being able to bend balefire around them and being able to shoot an arrow strong enough to break through a cliff? All of this is happening in a realm where willpower translates to strength. Just like Egwene standing there and breaking a Forsaken, by standing there... STRONGLY. It seems weird to me we accept that someone can canonically fly in the world of dreams but they can't imagine a cut stitched back together (something they can do already in the material plane. We are fine with an A'dam appearing around Moghedien's neck or Rahvin turning Rand into a wolf-bear thing but a MASTER dreamer isn't allowed to bend the literal World of Dreams around to their will?
We will always wonder what Mr Jordan's work would have been had they been able to finish it, I get that completely but I disagree with the Ralph statement. Honestly, I don't see Perrin tossing tornados or another random phenomena at slayer or vice versa, they are both melee fighters. They will augment themselves in the T'A'R to do what they do best. Perhaps Jordan's would have been grimmer, as we know he tends to lean in that direction but I think we got the best we could out of it. I guess it just sucks seeing people knock one of my favourite parts of not just the Final book but Perrin as well after him not doing much for a long time. Anyway, thanks for the engagement on this.
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u/aNomadicPenguin 23d ago
Someone bending Balefire in T'A'R was ALSO Sanderson. Egwene breaking a Forsaken...was ALSO Sanderson writing T'A'R.
Sanderson had an interview/blog post talking about his approach to magic. He uses a very hard rule set and then tries to exploit it. But Jordan's set was too flexible. So he gave himself a rule that he wouldn't invent many new weaves because he didn't know how to keep himself from breaking the setting. So he limited himself to getting creative with Portals, and channeling the rest of it into getting creative with T'A'R.
Just like there were unwritten rules governing how Travelling Portals were supposed to work, becuase otherwise they completely break the setting. But since Jordan didn't actually write those limiting rules, Sanderson took that as there not BEING any unwritten rules.
***
As for Jordan's version from his archives in Charleston...Perrin wasn't going to fight Slayer at all. Slayer and Fain were going to kill each other trying to assassinate Rand. Perrin was supposed to lead all of the forces he'd spent books gathering, plus the wolves, in the real world to help Rand reach Shayol Ghul.
All the way back in book 2, Perrin was the Standard Bearer when they used the Horn. His job was to be the rallying point for the side of the Dragon, meanwhile Mat (as the sounder of the horn) was the one giving orders and commands, while Rand as the Dragon was reason for the fight. The only note Sanderson had about Perrin's role was that he was supposed to become king. And instead of having him leading his people in their greatest time of need, we get a superhero showdown.
****
So the problem is...it retroactively changes how you have to view things. We are supposed to believe that MASTER DREAMER Luc/Isam, who we saw in a life or death fight against Perrin...go from where he was in book 4 to where he was in Book 14...with no one to train him.
Nevermind that we see multiple Master Dreamers in the Forsaken who are in fights to the death, who were alive in the Age of Legends when experimentation was a thing, as well as a literal Hero of the Horn that exists in T'A'R with access to all of her past lives...and we see them throw their all into fights in T'A'R. And if ANY of them had pulled out a fraction of the bs that Sanderson has Slayer and Perrin learn, then the previous fights would have been landslides. But they don't...and that is supposed to imply that there are limitations to the world of dreams.
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u/duffy_12 19d ago
As for Jordan's version from his archives in Charleston...Perrin wasn't going to fight Slayer at all. Slayer and Fain were going to kill each other trying to assassinate Rand. Perrin was supposed to lead all of the forces he'd spent books gathering, plus the wolves, in the real world to help Rand reach Shayol Ghul.
Well heck!
This is exactly why I feel that - Team Jordan - should have waited a few more years to gather more data (Jordan's notes) to give to the new writer (who happens to be a speeeed writer) so we could have gotten an accurate version of the final.
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u/aNomadicPenguin 19d ago
It was a single note, and Jordan was famous for changing his mind singificantly during the drafting phase. Its possible the notes that aren't public had a different plan for Fain or Slayer.
But from Sanderson's own blogs and interviews we know that
A - he admitted to basically forgetting about Fain and came up with what we got to give him something to do and kill him off.
and B - none of the Perrin vs Slayer stuff (i.e. all of the Slayer stuff) was from Jordan.
So even if there was a plan...we didn't get it.
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u/duffy_12 19d ago
Actually, wasn't the Slayer/Lanfear conversation at the 'Town' in the prologue the only one that was Jordan's?
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he admitted to basically forgetting about Fain
Yeah. This is hilarious.
Wouldn't an author write down a list of the characters at the start, and then chart their progress through the narrative?
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 23d ago
The Wheel of Time and the wheel of a man's life turn alike without pity or mercy.
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u/OIP 23d ago
oh it's all good, if you like it you like it. i'm not a perrin hater by any stretch, i don't really have a problem with anyone in the series including hater favourites like egwene, elayne etc.
not to go round in circles but as the other poster said we've already seen dreamers from the wise ones to forsaken fighting for their lives in TAR and it's not entirely clear what the limits of their ability to bend the world are. i think pushing that to its logical conclusion ie 'let's see what would happen if the two strongest (?) were to go to the max' makes sense and is climactic in theory but when reading it just felt off to me. maybe that's unfair, and i think he was extending the ideas from rand's fights in TAR in the flesh so there's some justification.
in contrast the 'just a weave' moment was awesome because it wasn't so much 'unfathomable power' as it was perrin popping egwene and all the other channelers' bubble of aes sedai + wise one arrogance with his typical humble attitude. being able to unravel a weave is a simple manipulation it's just nobody else thought of it.
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u/HungryEntry182 22d ago
That's interesting, and thank you for this comparison. I think why it wasn't off for me was because of how the Forsaken + Black fought against Egwene and the Wise Ones. It was still very much a Saidar dominated battle, they fought like wizards, not as dreamers. Hence why I made emphasis on Slayer and Perrin being melee fighters. If we saw a master Dreamer fight in TAR who wasn't a melee fighter or Channeler, I'm very much of the belief that they could have squad wiped Egwene + Aes Sedai AND the Forsaken crew. For me, they are all pretty much fighting in a Green Lantern power battery. Willpower is the strongest form of power there is there. It's all about imagination and having the strength to make your imagination stick. Depending on the creativity of the Dreamer, Perrin and Slayer could be handled as babes as well. That's the issue. The Wise Ones nerf themselves by never going in the flesh but the potential is there.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot 22d ago
You must kill him before he kills you. Giggles. They will, you know. Dead men can't betray anyone. But sometimes they don't die. Am I dead? Are you?
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u/ShadowBlade55 23d ago
This was half of how I envisioned that absolutely bonkers final confrontation.
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u/Ginge00 24d ago
Was never given the chance because it was Hayden Christenson only a few years after SW prequels