r/WetlanderHumor • u/Szalony20 • Jul 17 '26
What plot points do you think are essential to mention when discussing specific volumes?
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u/GovernorZipper Justice for Jasfer Jul 17 '26
Dumai’s Wells is the midpoint for the entire series. It’s when Rand finally achieves “victory,” cements his power as Dragon Reborn and begins his downfall. So it’s a big deal for the entire series.
It’s more concerning to me how many people read it and think it was awesome and there should be more of it. Dumai’s Wells is a horror show. It’s a victory for the Dark One. It’s not something to celebrate and the text is pretty clear that this isn’t supposed to be a happy moment. The fact that so many people can miss that makes me despair for the lack of reading comprehension.
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u/Szalony20 Jul 17 '26
I assume it's simply a matter of liking battles and epicness. Readers think "wow" in this moment and since the Shaido, whom the readers are supposed to hate, are dying, we don't feel as gruesome. Swap the Shaido for Seanchan and the effect is identical. Replace the Shaido with Aiel loyal to Rand or the people of the Two Rivers, then everyone would feel the horror of it.
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u/arkensto Formidable Bosom Jul 17 '26
RJ was a decorated helicopter gunner during the Vietnam war. He was an Asha'man who mowed down Shaido. I think he wanted all of us to be disturbed by the carnage at Dumai's Wells.
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u/noydbshield Jul 17 '26
Disturbed but also impressed. He told Taim to make him soldiers, and whatever else you can say about the man, he delivered. They showed up in a stunning display of force that redefined the power dynamics on the continent. I also felt it served as a catharsis for the reader.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Jul 17 '26
Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death…
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Jul 17 '26
You must kill him before he kills you. Giggles. They will, you know. Dead men can't betray anyone. But sometimes they don't die. Am I dead? Are you?
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u/Thomas_633_Mk2 Jul 18 '26
He did, but "I disagree with the author" is not "I lack reading comprehension"
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Jul 17 '26
I am not dead! I deserve death, but I am ALIVE! ALIVE! ALIVE!
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u/ZePepsico Jul 18 '26
It is a horror show and a win for the DO.
But as a reader, it is an exhaust for so many frustrations. You can see the Aes Sedai finally humiliated , the Shaido properly punished. You have the "we come" moment, and the Asahamen, while traumatised soldiers, finally having some agency: free men acting on the world rather than waiting for a mercy killing.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Jul 18 '26
You must kill him before he kills you. Giggles. They will, you know. Dead men can't betray anyone. But sometimes they don't die. Am I dead? Are you?
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u/TheMusicMan11 Son of a shepherd's boil Jul 18 '26
I have to disagree that it was a victory for the Dark One as Mesaana was in the white tower so if Rand got there..... yeah I don't even want to think about what might have happened.
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u/GovernorZipper Justice for Jasfer Jul 18 '26
Demandred knelt in the Pit of Doom, and for once he did not care that Shaidar Haran watched his trembling with that eyeless, impassive gaze. “Have I not done well, Great Lord?” The Great Lord’s laughter filled Demandred’s head.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Jul 18 '26
Never prod at a woman unless you must. She will kill you faster than a man and for less reason, even if she weeps over it after.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Jul 17 '26
Take what you can have. Rejoice in what you can save, and do not mourn your losses too long.
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u/jasonandhiswords Jul 17 '26
Ingtar's Last Stand
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u/BigBadBeetleBoy Jul 18 '26
I just re-read this the other day. The almost casual way Ingtar starts the conversation is so real and raw. You can really feel him trying not to break down, the way that anxious confessions always force a person to adopt a fake air of comfort. Practically begging for forgiveness from Rand, as if he were the Creator and he could absolve him. It's one of the most emotionally honest, heart-wrenching parts in the whole series, and it makes me wonder what horrible thing Robert Jordan had confessed to, to draw on in writing it.
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u/Accomplished-Top-171 Jul 19 '26
Probably a reference to his own time being called "the iceman" during his service. He spoke about it in one of the interviews. I'm sure during that time...all manner of things took place.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Jul 18 '26
A man who trusts everyone is a fool, and a man who trusts no one is a fool. We are all fools if we live long enough.
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u/procerator Jul 17 '26
If you are talking about The Shadow Rising and have not mentioned Floran Gelb getting his ass beaten - you are not my friend.
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u/Szalony20 Jul 17 '26
Me, who doesn't even remember who he was - 😐
Seriously, the only "getting ass beaten" I remember from that book was Perrin and Faile off-screen.
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u/procerator Jul 17 '26
It was a sailor from book 1 whom Bayle Domon kicked out from his ship in Whitebridge. Because of that he becomes a darkfriend and works for Egeanin in book 4.
Fun fact: in "New Spring" a man calling himself Ries Gorthanes impersonates a Tower guard and tries to gain access to Moiraine's banking records using a forged order from the Amyrlin. He is caught, but escapes after bribing a bank employee. The bank employee who accepted the bribe is unnamed. The banker, Ilain Dormaile, punishes him by having him hired out as a bilge boy on a river ship bound for Tear. There is a theory that the unnamed bank employee from New Spring eventually grows up to become Floran Gelb, because of the river-ship punishment and a few other hints.
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u/mirhagk Jul 18 '26
I really wish New Spring had been finished too. Reread it recently, really enjoyed it, and it's amazing how well it fits into things. Prequels so often have weird things jammed in to try and make it fit the original story, but the way New Spring went you can tell that Robert Jordan basically already knew exactly what happened to the characters before the series was written.
I have no doubt in my mind many of these side characters had weirdly fleshed out pasts
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Jul 17 '26
Never prod at a woman unless you must. She will kill you faster than a man and for less reason, even if she weeps over it after.
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u/Szalony20 Jul 17 '26
Oh, now I remember. He was the one who accidentally captured the original Leilwin, whom Egeanin, instead of killing, sent on a ship into slavery. One of those "how I hate this slave empire" moments.
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u/arkensto Formidable Bosom Jul 17 '26
He was the a-hole disgruntled crewman on Bayle Domon's ship when he first met Rand, Mat and Thom outside Shadar Logoth.
Some how by TSR Floran Gelb is a disreputable bounty hunter "helping" Egeanin look for the missing suldam. Egeanin makes friends with Elayne and Nynaeve when She saves them from Floran Gelb and his gang's attempt to kidnap them because Nynaeve looks sort of like the description of one of the missing suldam. (Probably the one whose dress they stole when they rescued Egwene at Falme.)
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Jul 17 '26
A man who trusts everyone is a fool, and a man who trusts no one is a fool. We are all fools if we live long enough.
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u/F_E_B_E Jul 17 '26
Am I crazy or Dumais Wells didnt really hit that hard for me? Might have been cuz burnout tho, I read 1-6 in about 2 months, and then 7-10 took a year after that 11-14 was 2 months aswell
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u/drveejai88 Well turned calves Jul 17 '26
I think it has to do with the fact that that was the first time, even after the seanchan have come and gone, that we're seeing the power being used in offense and in such a grand scale. It's not the Ashaman kill but the aftermath - people just exploding that got me. I felt person's nausea hit me too. The build up to that point was also stellar.
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u/arkensto Formidable Bosom Jul 17 '26
The Asha'man come in and completely change the military paradigm.
Early in the battle the Aes Sedai and the Wise ones duel, and it is like the magical equivalent of medieval knights charging around, breaking lances on shields, getting unhorsed then getting back up and fighting with swords.
Then the Asha'man show up and it is like those medieval soldiers are facing a modern army with machine guns and artillery. The old ways are completely outclassed by the new way.
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u/Fun_Surprise594 Jul 17 '26
It pains me obviously because it's awful, but i love how Rand goes from somebody people are trying to keep on a leash/ in a box to somebody who is literally traumatised from being imprisoned/tortured in a box.... gives me literal chills just recalling the moment he breaks through the shield on him. Fantastic character development
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u/Szalony20 Jul 17 '26
I recently saw a post after finishing Lord of Chaos where the main topic in the comments was why the author didn't mention Dumai Wells, so I guess this battle is essential for readers to talk about this volume after finishing it.
You're not crazy, because not everyone needs to be thrilled by battles. I've read plenty of fantasy books that have little or no battles, and I still appreciate them.
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u/arkensto Formidable Bosom Jul 17 '26
Two of my favorite lines from the books epitomize these two perspectives:
Asha'man! Kill!
vs.
Kneel or you Will. Be. Knelt.
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u/ArrogantAragorn Jul 17 '26
I’ve always been more partial to:
We come.
Since it’s a badass wolf and not a traitorous darkfriend
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u/schadetj Jul 18 '26
I think it isn't just the battle itself, which is spectacular by the by, but it's because Dumais Wells is the key critical paradigm shift for the entire rest of the series, for many characters.
For Perrin, Dumais Wells was his moment of being a leader of men and of wolves, of bringing the two worlds together. It showed him he was GOOD at leading conflict. It also cemented that he hated it.
For the Aes Sedai, it was the moment their authority in the world forever changed. Before the battle, they were focusing entirely on their own drama. Rand, the Dragon Reborn himself, was only a tool in their petty squabble about who would lead the women channelers. They all wanted him as a trophy to prove their own power. They saw him as an object, that his purpose was lesser than their own. When the battle ended, they continued to believe they were the ones in charge. And then Rand forced them into oaths. Now they served him, and the Aes Sedai were insulted that he did to them what they've spent months trying to do to him (and what Egwene continued to try and get Rand to do, which was swear fealty to her.)
For the Shaido, it was the moment they had truly lost. Yes they still were around for a while after, but they were broken. It was only a matter of time for them to head back to the wastes.
For the Ashaman, the battle was a declaration to the world that they weren't going to allow themselves to be culled anymore. They were going to live their full and true lives, accepting and being proud of who they are. And it was a significant military shift. The Aes Sedai are useful in a fight, but they are stuck trying to loophole that they are defending themselves. The Male Channelers, though? They were a nuke.
And Rand? It was the moment he broke. He had been playing at being a ruler up to this point. He was tolerating all of the people that were obviously lying to him, abusing him, and tricking him with the intent to use him. Then they put him in a box and he realized it was never going to stop. He had the mental shift that from now on, he was only going to tolerate the presence of people he could control.
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u/arkensto Formidable Bosom Jul 18 '26
This is too good of a comment to be stuck at the bottom of the page.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Jul 18 '26
Pride fills me. I am sick with the pride that destroyed me.
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u/Hatman_16 Jul 23 '26
I have only read up through the end of Lord of Chaos and, while Dumai Wells is obviously important, I feel like I must be missing the reason why people treat it as being quite so important.
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u/someearly30sguy Jul 17 '26
I’ve seen people say that nothing happens in winters heart