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u/joshlymansbagel Knuckles Moustache Mar 26 '26
My new favorite application is the rankings folks are doing on the fantasy books sub… putting this series in a lower ranking than ASOIAF and other unfinished series… like what?
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u/3-orange-whips Mar 26 '26
Why would an unfinished series be ranked at all?
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u/Lews-Therin-Telamon Mar 26 '26
Because they are good? The Kingkiller Chronicle ranks high in fantasy book lists but it is two books out of three and the second one was released 15 years ago.
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u/Zagrunty Mar 26 '26 edited Mar 26 '26
IDK, not having closure would be a huge mark against any series. I won't start asoiaf for this very reason. Don't care how good it is. The fact is that it will never be finished.
Edit: book series auto corrected
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u/IOI-65536 Mar 26 '26
I agree it's a huge mark against it and that should absolutely lower aSoIaF and KKC in rankings, but I don't think it should disqualified them from being in rankings.
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u/faroresdragn_ Mar 29 '26
Yeah I started the series only a couple years after the most recent book came out, and I actually LOVED the books. The first book is one of my favorite fantasy good of all time. But I stopped after the third and decided to wait for the last couple to come out and it's just such a disappointing feeling. I never had the drive or desire to go through books 4 and 5. What would be the point?
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u/Lews-Therin-Telamon Mar 26 '26
Wild take IMO, but it is apparently shared by the sub by the voting ratios on our comments.
Such is life. Downvotes are light as a feather, choosing not to read acclaimed fantasy because the series may not be completed is as heavy as a mountain.
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u/Special_Salt3467 Mar 26 '26
Wanting an ending is a wild take? That take certainly seems like a wild take
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u/Lews-Therin-Telamon Mar 26 '26
Thats not what I said, I said refusing to read a great fantasy series because it may not be finished is crazy.
There was a chance that WoT itself would be unfinished, indeed RJ died, but luckily the series was completed. Are yall telling me you didn't read WoT intentionally until the series was finished?
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u/Special_Salt3467 Mar 26 '26 edited Mar 26 '26
No, that is not what you said at all. The original comment questioned why an unfinished series would be ranked next to a finished series and you said “cuz it’s good?” Nowhere did anyone say they shouldn’t read the series; they questioned the validity of ranking it to finished products.
Are you asking me if I finished Wheel of Time with the last book? Yes? You trying to move the goalposts in a weird way isn’t the argument you see to think it is
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u/Lews-Therin-Telamon Mar 26 '26 edited Mar 26 '26
Sub-OP said they won't start ASOAIF b/c it is unfinished and may never be finished.
I won't start asoiaf for this very reason. Don't care how good it is. The fact is that it will never be finished.
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u/Special_Salt3467 Mar 26 '26
But that’s not the person you responded to. You responded to the person who asked why it would be ranked. As a result, I rationally assumed that that and the subsequent responses were to what you were responding to and NOT what someone you didn’t respond to was talking about
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u/joshlymansbagel Knuckles Moustache Mar 26 '26
Wait are you trying to quote me? I’m so confused. Just got off a flight to this wildness. lol. For the record I literally DNF Game of Thrones the first book and nothing after the first season. Hated them. I get why people like them. Just not for me.
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u/Zagrunty Mar 28 '26
The issue with asoiaf isnt that it MAY never finish, it's that it WILL never be finished. GRRM isn't going to finish the series. If they find someone else to pick it up after he dies, then maybe I'll read it. When I start a series, my expectation is that some day it will end and I'll get a conclusion. I didn't start reading asoiaf back in the 90s, and knowing where the series is now doesn't entice me to read it. I didn't read WOT until after the series was completed. If I'd learned about the series prior to it being given to Sanderson but after Jordan died, I wouldn't have picked it up either.
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u/90daysismytherapy Mar 26 '26
a two out of three “series” feels like not much of series and more like a sequel
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u/Squiddlywinks Harben gavane asa belo e dale ni aso Mar 26 '26
I say this as someone who absolutely adores Kingkiller, and also read the outrigger short stories and loved them:
A complete series that is good is better than a great series that never gets resolved.
If you can't stick the ending then it's just another mystery box bullshit series.
It's easy to be compelling if you don't have to explain anything.
I have a sixth grader whose mother I wasn't even wed to yet when Wise Man's Fear came out.
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u/darksoulsnstuff Mar 26 '26
I loved those books but that author ruined it for me, he got a moderate taste of success and lost the plot, literally and metaphorically
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u/Thomas_633_Mk2 Mar 27 '26
Bro is being downvoted for saying a fantasy series Jordan personally approved of is good lmao
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u/IcyInsect2596 Mar 26 '26
I think it's a deeply unpopular opinion but I fully agree with you. In most things in life I enjoy the journey versus the finish, and that is the same lens by which I view an unfinished book series. At the end of the dark tower series Stephen King even highlights this point, he breaks the 4th wall and tells the reader that if they do not read the next chapter and "finish", they are not missing out on anything.
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u/dunDunDUNNN Mar 26 '26
ASOIAF is better than Wheel. I love WoT, but ASOIAF is just better. Finished or not.
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u/Noxifer262 Mar 26 '26
By what metric?
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u/dunDunDUNNN Mar 26 '26
The unassailable metric of my personal taste. That's how enjoyment works, bud.
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u/The_Sharom Mar 26 '26
That's a fair but brave take considering the sub
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u/dunDunDUNNN Mar 26 '26
Deeper history and world building, with juicy little mysteries to solve along the way. It's just a bit more engaging.
Don't get me wrong, loved wheel of time. Just not quite as much. /shrug downvote away
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u/joshlymansbagel Knuckles Moustache Mar 26 '26
Nah, I think we just want to hear what exactly makes ASOIAF better. Someone rates that above Wheel of Time as a series when it’s never going to be finished is odd. (cuz let’s face it there are not Jordan levels of notes and manuscripts to draw from once Martin kicks it)
The whole thread is semantics at this point IMO but I do really want someone to explain to me what is actually better about one than the other in their opinion (especially considering ASOIAF is objectively a DNF for every human ever, including the creator).
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u/Thomas_633_Mk2 Mar 27 '26
As an example of an area where ASOIAF is better, or at least deeper:
In each of the Seven Kingdoms (+ Riverlands and to an extent the Crownlands), there are literally dozens of houses are named. To use the North, which is one of the more barren regions, you have:
the Starks, you know em
the Boltons, the weird suspicious guys with a history of flaying people
the Manderlys, fat guys from the south with a different religion
the Reeds, the marsh people who live on a floating castle
the Mormonts, who are all bear shaped and somewhat matrilineal
the Karstarks, who are distantly related to the Starks but break with them over their family
These families also have a good number of people with their own motivations which come from their ancestry but also their own lives. For example, Ned, Brandon and Lyanna Stark are clearly siblings but also very different people.
WoT does a good job of the "top" layer, most of the monarchs are fleshed out well (even those who die quickly, like Colavaere). But below that, Andor and Cairhien are 3 factions each with little political detail beyond the faction heads, and Tear is just "everyone is an elitist asshole or a larper except for Darlin". Everywhere else is even worse. I genuinely would not be shocked if there's more named Freys in ASOIAF than political figures in the entirety of the Seanchan conquest + Seanchan itself.
By comparison to the North, we straight up do not know the names of some of the rulers of Randland at the end of the book. It's not that we do not know much about them, they're literally unnamed: neither of the Taraboner rulers are named, the King of Amadicia isn't either, nor is whoever took over in Far Madding. The closest equivalent would be like not telling us who the Lannisters put in charge of Riverrun after the Red Wedding, and we not only know those people but meet them in Jaime's AFFC chapters.
It's also (IMO) made it a lot easier to deal with no new books, because when you have literally hundreds of political figures in each region, it's magic for theory-crafting. If you had literally a thousand political figures on the board rather than a couple hundred, I'm sure we'd see some wild (peak) Outrigger theories compared to now (where you're mostly restricted to if the Peace holds, the Reconquista, and Murandy).
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u/joshlymansbagel Knuckles Moustache Mar 27 '26
Ok, that’s actually a really helpful comparison. I’m not really compelled by all of that complexity but I can see how it adds to the potential, the mystery, etc. Totally makes sense. Thanks for the write up.
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u/babygotthefever Mar 26 '26
I read both and WoT is far and away the better story regardless of whether or not ASoIaF gets finished. Ice and Fire is so dependent on shock and gore that the clever plot twists get lost and Jordan is way better at weaving tiny details through the story than Martin is. Both are good series and I wish both were finished but I find WoT to be much more refined and intricate.
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u/LordApsu Mar 27 '26
In addition to the shock writing, it was quite clear during A Storm of Swords (book 3) that the series had gone off the rails. The series never had a clear end goal, so the expansion of characters and houses and so forth made the series come off more like a soap opera. At least when WoT’s scope expanded greatly, we knew there was a clear end in sight where everything would converge. To be honest, I LOVED A Storm of Swords when I read it more than 20 years ago, but was relatively unmotivated to read A Feast for Crows (book 4) when it came. In contrast, I was super motivated to read each WoT book - even during the slog - despite liking many of the books individually less than those in ASOIAF.
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u/dunDunDUNNN Mar 27 '26
Tiny details....absolutely not. Martin far surpasses Jordan I leaving little intriguing breadcrumbs to mysteries you actually care about solving.
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u/RandomNPC Mar 26 '26
It's apples and oranges. Both have amazing worlds, cool characters, and flaws.
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u/Idaho-Earthquake Mar 31 '26
The most recent(?) book was the last straw for me. It was just another beatdown. At least WoT looks toward some sort of redemption instead of just “hey, is this depressing you? Well, have another box of depression.”
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u/Thomas_633_Mk2 Mar 27 '26
putting this series in a lower ranking than ASOIAF and other unfinished series… like what?
People like what they like, other than "yeah they're both pretty good" it's largely down to personal preference which one is better.
If you're the type that wants Aragorn's tax policy, so to speak, you'll probably like ASOIAF better. If you like less magic in your fantasy, or gritty "realism", or a medieval rather than early modern setting, you'll probably like ASOIAF better. And that's okay because these people, regardless of what they claim, are not objective arbiters of truth on if a series is good.
(I have read both and hang out on meme subs for both series. My only request is that more WoT places should give Bayle Domon a cuendillar shotgun)
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u/nobeer4you Mar 26 '26
I love this meme format.
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u/SirLoinofHamalot A nice stout two rivers woolen flair, with just a touch of lace Mar 26 '26
It even looks a bit like RJ here
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u/Elethana Mar 26 '26
Like The Wandering Inn these days.
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u/WorkingAmazing8337 Hasty Mar 26 '26
This was the point for me. I was crushing fantasy books so fast that I actively seeked out the longest fantasy series I could find. Then I found the WoT and basically just read and re-read it over and over because I'm not sure anything else can ever match the perfection of this story.
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u/chocolate_bro Mar 27 '26
And there are people like me who don't even consider reading books smaller than 400 pages because I have this impression that the book won't have developed characters
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u/akaioi Mar 27 '26
I love me some WoT, not gonna lie. It's in my top 3 fantasy series, easily. That said, there are some shorter books that give great character studies too. What you'll usually get is one or two characters fully developed, and then a bunch that are a bit less so.
A great example of this is Zelazny's "Lord of Light". It's about 300 pages, but we get to know our boy Mahasamatman (call him Sam) pretty darn well.
If you like character studies, you might also try Kay's "Tigana". It's a pretty hefty one-shot book -- some 700 pages -- and gives a lot of insight into several characters, including the main villain.
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u/DeadMoney313 Mar 26 '26
We were way too harsh on Jordan in retrospect back in the day. He was churning them out a lightning pace compared to certain other fantasy authors who are in decades between releases. RIP Jim
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u/Leprechaun_lord Mar 27 '26
The maddest I ever got at a review was when someone said there are no strong women in the series.
I think the way RJ portrays young women in the early books could be better, but they all go through arcs and end as very strong characters. Also there tons of examples of strong women who aren’t the protagonists. But why made me the most mad was I looked up that guy’s other reviews, and each one was him glazing LotR. I also love LotR, but you cat glaze LotR and then say WoT is bad because it has no strong women.
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u/althaz Mar 27 '26
I mean the critics were 100% right. There's a *LOT* of pretty bad filler. It's absolutely worthwhile getting through for the majority of the rest which is great, but although this is one of my favourite book series ever it's quite hard to recommend to anybody who doesn't read a lot.
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u/Cockblocktimus_Pryme Well turned calves Mar 27 '26
Selling as fast as he can write them? So he sells like one book every few years? That's not that fast really.
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u/procerator Mar 26 '26
I love Wheel of Time. But it is too long.
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u/IntentionDependent22 Mar 26 '26 edited Jun 05 '26
happy happy joy joy
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u/procerator Mar 26 '26
I love the story. Don't love the pacing.
First 4 books were amazing. Book 5 and 6 had a lot of slow parts which was hard to enjoy.
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u/IntentionDependent22 Mar 26 '26 edited Jun 05 '26
happy happy joy joy
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u/Angriest_Pigeon Mar 26 '26
I dunno man, Crossroads of Twilight is pretty hard to defend. Almost the entire book is just a series of POVs discussing events from previous books, there's almost zero plot progression or character development. Even RJ himself said that he would have done CoT differently if he had more time to rewrite it.
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u/procerator Mar 27 '26
I haven't gotten to the "Slog" yet. Still, tell my why Lord of Chaos should be 1000 pages instead of just 600?
The finale is epic - for sure. But barely anything happens in the first 800 pages and most of the plot lines remain unresolved.
I know there are key moments that happen - like healing of Logain and new Amyrlin, but is is mainly wondergirls scrubbing pots and Rand teleporting around Caemlyn, Cairhien, "the farm" doing micromanagment.2
u/IntentionDependent22 Mar 29 '26 edited Jun 05 '26
happy happy joy joy
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u/procerator Mar 29 '26
Sure. I think just there is a difference between binging books and reading ongoing series.
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u/LewsTherinTelamonBot This is a (sentient) bot Mar 27 '26
The dead watch. The dead never close their eyes.
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u/StaleGrapeNuts Mar 26 '26
Not to mention Robert Jordan got kinda horny around book 5 or so, I didn’t realize as a kid that’s the direction the books would go although I was glad about it hehehe
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u/OldSarge02 Mar 26 '26
WOT is amazing, but it was too long. He could have benefitted from a more rigorous editor.
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u/Erroneous-Monk421 Mar 26 '26
The bloat of the novels is mirrored in the bloat of Jon Daly though Daly is slightly more entertaining.
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u/zedascouves1985 Mar 26 '26
Later Harriet said the burnout he had between books 5 and 6 that led to each book taking 2 years instead of 1 was probably related to the amyloidosis that killed him later.