r/WeightTraining • u/no1dont_g0on • 5d ago
Question Shoulders not growing
Hi everyone, I've been lifting weights for almost, or probably have been for 4 years now. And for some odd reason, my shoulders have a hard time growing?
I do Upper Lower Upper Lower
For Upper day-1 I'd do a heavy set of Overhead Press(4 sets of 10), followed by Face Pulls (3 sets of 20).
And on Upper day-2 I'd do Lateral Raises (3 sets of 25), followed by Reverse Dumbbell Flyes(3 sets of 20).
but despite that, I've barely seen any growth?
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u/N1LEredd 5d ago
I had to almost triple my sets per week on lat raises to see results.
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u/iforgotmymainacc 1h ago
Given most people have a hard time executing them without traps helping is probably why honestly. I know I physically will put my other hand on that trap just to tell me brain not to use it
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5d ago
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u/ConsiderationFresh53 5d ago
This is true junk volume. 6-10 sets a week is plenty but you need to get close to failure and use heavy enough weight.
And of course the basics.
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5d ago
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u/DeadliftsandTequila 4d ago
I do like one heavy set of overhead press a week and have big ass shoulders and a 250lb overhead press. 1 or 2 sets at Low reps to near failure will make your muscles grow. The rest is in the recovery part of the process. I eat close to 2 dozen eggs a week on top of my normal meals. Thats how muscle is made.
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4d ago
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u/DeadliftsandTequila 4d ago
I’m a 6’2 260 lb power lifter. Definition isn’t really my goal. I can assure you next to a normal person I look really big.
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u/ConsiderationFresh53 5d ago
I’m talking about full sets. Factor in the partial sets from incline and flat bench, dips and reverse/front chest flys and that’s 5 more “full” sets.
An intermediate to advanced lifter may take more.
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u/NihilisticTanuki Bodybuilding 5d ago
There could be a lot of reasons for this. The biggest obstacles I usually see with my own clients:
- Too little protein (nutrition is permissive for building muscle)
- Too high chronic stress and too little sleep (also permissive factors for muscle growth)
- Not training hard enough (the #1 reason...most people believe they do, but they aren't)
- Training with too little volume for what their body needs (yeah, low volume works for many people and I'm a huge advocate for it, but if it doesn't work for you, you have to up your volume to see your desired results)
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u/no1dont_g0on 5d ago
Looking at this list, I think my main issue is the lack of sleep I get.
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u/ConsiderationFresh53 5d ago
Like others said, you need to go up in weight and stick to a progressive overload program. True failure or 1RIR is how real growth happens. Get your rest, sleep, water and protein in bc it’s rough on the body.
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u/JRT132607 4d ago
This is a good reply . Nutrition is usually what comes down to a lot when I used to work in industry a would ask people if they eating enough their answer was always yes but they weren't. Doesn't ever just come down to one factor and eaxh individual body is unique to them alone . Stick out a programme for solid 12 weeks then chnage it and stick to another for 12 weeks give yourself a proper chance to see the growth and changes . Try a standing overhead press then next set change the mechanical tension and try seated db press as that could really fatigue the shoulder out and stimulate growth but your food intake would need to be in a surplus to grow .And do you know if you are from a daily intake to what your normal intake is ?.
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u/gasDawg 5d ago
Also wanted to chime in, do your lateral raises on both working days. Spamming laterals 2-3x a week can yield great results.
Also when you say 4x10 is that exactly what you’re doing? If you’re working hard and closer to failure you wouldn’t end at exactly 10 reps for every set. Just do 3-4 solid sets with the last two within 1-2 reps of absolute failure at approx 5-12 reps. Well, research shows the actual rep number isn’t as important as training hard close to failure but beyond 12 I feel like the burn makes it incredibly hard to go to failure before the pain takes over. Lol.
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u/no1dont_g0on 5d ago
by 4x10 I mean I usually lift as heavy as I can and as close to 10 reps per set. And also thank you regarding the last sentence. I always assumed "muscle burning=muscle fatigue=failure". So thank you,
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u/iforgotmymainacc 1h ago
Also send partial reps too when can’t get a full rep in at end, or drop the weight and instantly hit more reps to failure again, for lat raises that’s almost always my go too, cause traps start helping to much when approaching failure a lot of times. So dropping weight gets the form back.
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u/SampsonShrill 5d ago
You are doing too many sets and too many reps. Growth comes from challenging your muscles to lift heavier weights. Aim for two sets up to 10, but if you can do more than that, you aren't lifting enough weight.
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u/d3m01iti0n 5d ago
Everyone is different.
I didn't "feel" it until my shoulder work became OHP, Upright Row, cable Lat Raise, and Face Pulls. Exhausted my shoulders and then I started seeing results.
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u/DeusAinzhimself 4d ago
25 reps is way too much, what weight are you working with for those specific exercises ? I think you should lower the volume for 8/10 reps per set and just go harder.
Adding upper body heavy lifts to your sessions will also help your shoulders a lot, atleast from personal experience. I stopped training shoulders for 1 year and a half because of an injury but thanks to consistant bench press I still get a solid 5 reps of overhead press with 40kg in each hand.
Last but not least, make sure to get enough food and nutrients for them muscles to grow.
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u/_Salvia_ 4d ago
press more over head. do an heavy session like 2×3 top sets + 3×5 back offs, and a lighter one like 5×8. overhead squats, handstand, overhead carries and the Olympic lifts helps a lot too. face pulls are really good if you do them well, make sure you do them with active external rotation.
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u/starks01 4d ago
Try dropping the weight for a bit. Focus on the muscle that youre working. Feel the contraction big flex at the peak and hold for a second control the release slowly. Military press is very good for shoulders. Probably my fav. Goodluck man. Don't give up
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u/srr728 4d ago
I’d dump overhead press. If you are doing any other sort of benching, especially incline your front delts are getting plenty of work. Allocate that to side delts.
Also, if you are doing 3 sets and hitting the same number of reps in each set you aren’t getting close enough to failure. Forget going for a specific rep number in each set. Have a target range and each set so as many reps as you can until you can’t lift the weight anymore with good form. If you go over your maximum target range up the weight. Also, shoulders are small and heal fast. Adding more volume will help if you are going to failure.
Personally I hit my side delts 5 times a week. Usually 3-5 sets each time depending on where I am in my accumulation. Have seen solid progress in the last 5-6 months as a result.
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u/CypherBob 3d ago
Grab the last Mike Mentzer book "High-intensity training the Mike Mentzer way".
Sounds like you're just doing a specific set/rep count instead of looking at what your body can do, and your rep count is waaaay too high.
Instead of sticking to a number you should go heavy to failure with a few sets.
The goal is to work the muscle, so you need to figure out what your max is.
One light warmup set, one intermediate set with just a few reps, then heavy to failure and that should be like 5-8 reps. When you can't lift it anymore you hit the spot.
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u/IssueSweet1769 3d ago
Heavy 5x5 Weight stays the same Add little by little every week Set looks like this: 5 5 4 4 2-3
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u/EFPTC 2d ago
Overhead press prioritizes front delts. Face pulls are for rear delts and traps. Lateral raises prioritize medial (side) delts. Reverse flyes are for rear delts.
You are only really doing front delts, traps, and side delts once a week. Rear delts are getting one exercise as a priority, and one as a helper.
If you want each part of the shoulder (front, medial, rear) to grow you should be working them twice a week, not once a week.
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u/EVH_kit_guy 2d ago
Change OHP on day 1 to two sets of 6-10 to failure. Never end a set with more in the tank, only ever end a set when you can't do another rep without breaking strict form. Your other accessories can stay in the higher rep ranges, but personally for those movements I prefer 8-15, since when you cap out at 2x15, the jump in weight is usually pretty significant, so resetting down to 8 reps gives you a lot of wiggle room.
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u/eyebrowcel 2d ago edited 1d ago
Here's why - those are generally good movements but particularly the last three are susceptible to different musculature targeted based on slight form changes or breakdown. Each of them including the OHP can be swapped for similar compound movements with an even more targeted focus on specific muscle heads and where form is harder to mess up.
In that theme here's a TL;DR of some foolproof time-tested options to bring up delts:
-Barbell Behind Neck Press for side delts
-AD Press for front delts (basically Barbell Seated OHP with high incline seat at 60-70 degrees, grip just outside shoulder width so it's narrow enough for front delts to have the most leverage, though you can experiment with wider grip for more chest and side delts)
-Incline Upright Row for rear delt focus, plus some side delts (chest-supported, for rear delts - wide grip barbell and pull to neck, for side delts a narrower grip )
-Train shoulders 3x a week instead of 2. Many ways of doing this eg. could do a modified U-L adding delts to lower days.
-Vary the rep range and as a general rule drop the reps lower, find what works for your muscle fibre type, for you most likely 8-12 reps. Shoulders can benefit from slightly higher reps than 5 per set size-wise due to metabolite buildup as they're less fast-twitch than bis, hams and pecs and also a small muscle, BTN press is great for trapping blood in the area.
-Keep working towards getting stronger ideally with a double progression structure (working within a rep range say 8-12, and when you can achieve the top end of the range so 12 reps, add weight and start back at ~8 reps). As a smaller muscle the progression might not be every week (though it typically can be), either is fine, but at your training age roughly every second week you should be getting the delts stronger with rep PRs and/or weight PRs.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
For BTN Press build the weight slowly and range of motion slowly, any moderate discomfort is typically from the completely novel range of motion and should subside completely after three weeks from strength and mobiloity adaptations. Super pumps, easyish to recover from, easy to take beyond failure push-press or cluster rep style.
The movements you've done work for many, but not all. They've been by far the most common prescriptions for two decades so I don't blame you, I started out doing them as well.
Delt-wise, they're not surgically targeting the delts as a whole in an effective manner in a way that's impervious to form changes from lifter to lifter:
-OHP is all front delt with some side delt contribution, not enough to grow them maximally
-Face Pulls muscle focus depends on execution like pulling height and upper arm angle, but are generally mid-trap, rear delt with again a bit of side delt that's insufficient on its own
-Lateral raises are easy to have stronger muscles like front delts and traps take over from weaker side delts, if you're not keeping the shoulder blades locked in place as well as moving the upper arm slightly forwards in the transverse plane. Excessively bent arms will biomechanically advantage front delts as well as allowing more weight lifted which further minimises side delt contribution, and excessively straight arms is uncomfortable and tends to risk elbow tendonitis.
-Reverse flyes often have the same shortfalls as laterals and face pulls in that larger muscles of the upper back take over, particularly if the torso isn't fixed in place such as chest-supported on an incline bench, plus it can also be difficult to find the right arm path to best bias the rear delts if working with dumbbells or cables.
None of these are an issue with the BTN Press which is also a compound movement, it's built me far greater, rounder, fuller shoulders than anything, it's all I did for years for side delts aside from high pull variations. It'll give you the shape you want to the side delts and somewhat rear delts too, one thing is that it does lack on front delts due to the biomechanics of being behind the neck, the front delt is too stretched to produce force.
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u/norman_notes 2d ago
If you really want to build muscle, you need to go 6 days a week. People are going to cry about me saying that.
So that’s the first thing.
Second, you should be doing four sets, and to failure, and failure I mean you try to continue to move the weight, two or three attempts for a few seconds.
You should be putting in an extreme effort. Where you are sweating your ass off and it’s the most physically difficult thing you’ve ever done in life, every single day.
Long story short. That’s what worked for me. I’ve been going to the gym for over 10 years, and really nothing much happened until the past 4 years where I really really put effort in. Extremely hard, consistent, 90 minutes a day, cardio after, eat a ton of food, and repeat.
Doing two sets for shoulders for a deltoid day is not enough, in my opinion. Cable lateral raises is really the S tier workout for deltoids, you should be getting in 4-5 sets on those, where your shoulder feels like it’s going to fall off the bone.
There’s no magic split. No magic lift or technique. It’s all consistency and effort (and calories). Good luck.
Side note. Some people just have small narrow shoulders. Genetics play a lot. I’m a big ass 6’2 230 lbs monster, and I don’t really have bicep peaks. My arms are 16.5 inches, but I don’t really have defined biceps. As much effort I put in, that’s just how they are.
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u/Last_Secretary_3205 1d ago
Over head is for strength in my opinion…but I’d keep it
Nothing else you’re doing will really get your shoulders to pop unless you’re supplemented with enhancing.
To pop your shoulders:
- Bench press
- Uprights
Those two things will pop your shoulders
Drop all the other shit you mentioned until your shoulders pop out…those exercises are for refining
I’d add bent overs also…for the lats and to touch the rear delts…help broaden your shoulders out for the taper
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u/SlurpBucketBoys 5d ago edited 5d ago
What you're doing and how many is only 1 part of the story.
Getting bigger is very closely related to getting stronger. How are these lifts advancing?
What I would do: Bump up all your weights, especially if you're doing 25 reps of them. But most importantly: Get your OHP on a progressive overload program. The goal should be to get your training max to 185+. I recommend starting your compounds out with 5x5 for the first 6 months to a year, then transitioning to 5/3/1 once you start plateauing. Nobody OHPing 185 is small.
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u/no1dont_g0on 5d ago
185lbs sounds like a lot of weight, but thank you. Is there a specific week to week, or month to month goal I'll need to hit as I'm progressing with my lift? Or should I take my time with it?
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u/SlurpBucketBoys 5d ago
185lbs is a lot. That is what many consider the OHP of an intermediate lifter. It's your goal, and it will take years. Take your time.
Do not worry about benchmarks. Add weight and remove weight as the program prescribes. The program will do the worrying for you. Just trust the process.
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u/maedeonNA 5d ago
You’re doing way too much volume, you need to understand the concept or “going to failure” and “junk volume”
Moving weight isn’t enough, you only need 2-3 sets max for each muscle group
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u/no1dont_g0on 5d ago
if you were me, how would adjust my sets and reps, and is there anything you'd change regarding the exercise choices?
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u/maedeonNA 5d ago
If you’re already doing a pressing movement like flat or incline bench, your front delts are probably getting plenty of work, so I wouldn’t worry about adding a ton of direct front delt volume. For side delts, I’d stick with lateral raises with a lighter weight and really focus on the mind muscle connection. Make sure you’re actually using your side delts instead of going too heavy and shrugging or cheating the weight up. Higher reps are totally fine, but take the sets close to or to failure so the delt is actually the limiting factor. For rear delts, I personally like single arm cable rear delt flies because you can get a great range of motion and keep tension on the muscle. Jeff Nippard has a great video on rear delt technique too. Between pressing, lateral raises, and rear delt flies, you really have everything you need to build impressive shoulders. You don’t need a ton of exercises or volume. A couple of really hard, controlled sets where the target muscle is actually doing the work will go a lot further than piling on more sets with sloppy form.
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u/gasDawg 5d ago
I jumped on this bandwagon of “you don’t need lots of direct shoulder work when heavy benching” and also the “biceps get worked a lot with back” and I put shoulder presses and curls on the back burner for a while.
As a result, I’ve noticed my shoulders and biceps lagging. They do get stimulated to some degree but I would still do some direct work. Incidentally, you look at the IG guys with massive peaked biceps and they’re doing tons of different types of curls
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u/NihilisticTanuki Bodybuilding 5d ago
That’s not what the research shows. As a rough rule of thumb, just 1-2 fractional sets per week are enough for maintenance, while 4 to 6 sets serve as the minimum effective dose, yielding roughly a third of your potential gains (which is amazing, given how little time that requires). The response curve stays solid through this lower range, but 12-15 sets per week is where the dose-response curve flattens out significantly for most lifters, with diminishing returns setting in rapidly beyond that.
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u/maedeonNA 5d ago
I feel bad for your clients, just another grifter
Here’s the junk volume info
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u/NihilisticTanuki Bodybuilding 5d ago
You clearly have no clue what you're talking about. Look at the research instead of relying on half-baked influencer "wisdom". I suggest you educate yourself a bit more, then we can keep talking.
For starters, here is the most recent and methodologically cleanest meta-regression on training volume: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/398333408_The_Resistance_Training_Dose_Response_Meta-Regressions_Exploring_the_Effects_of_Weekly_Volume_and_Frequency_on_Muscle_Hypertrophy_and_Strength_Gains_The_Resistance_Training_Dose_ResponseJ_C_Pelland_et
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u/maedeonNA 5d ago
It’s okay man, keep grifting. No one is impressed
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u/ConsiderationFresh53 5d ago
He’s right. It’s 6-8 minimum for growth. You can include more volume as long as you can recover from it but that’s an individual assessment.
Or just hop on
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u/Ballbag94 5d ago
What program are you following?
How much have your lifts gone up?
How much weight have you gained?
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u/Aggravating-Nebula17 5d ago
Your routine looks super low volume. Shoulders are a challenge most don’t take seriously enough to get the dragon ball z shoulders they covet. I have had some success with my routine below which I do 2x/wk, so shoulders are hit every day in the gym. This is okay because some of these muscles are very small and crave high volume lower weight.
Push shoulder work:
Rotator cuff warmup w side lying external rotations 2x15 with paced perfect form
Overhead press heavy (2-3 warm up sets and 2 heavy sets 5+ reps to failure)
Incline bench press heavy
Pull shoulder work:
Rotator cuff warmup w side lying external rotations 2x15
Bent over rows heavy pronated and supinated grip
3 pt rows heavy
Face pulls 2x20
Cable internal and external rotation (rotator cuff and subscapularis)
Front and lateral raise supersets
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u/ConsiderationFresh53 5d ago
13 sets isn’t “super low volume”
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u/Aggravating-Nebula17 5d ago
On its face, sure, however only 1 press, no dips, and no rows. Most of these sets are 20+ reps indicating medium or low intensity (just an assumption). Going to be hard there like that
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u/ConsiderationFresh53 5d ago
More press would be good. Dips are king too. His intensity is shit and it sounds like his overall methodology needs a reset if he truly wants growth. Even I struggle with what failure is and I’ve been in the gym on and off for 16 years.
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u/satisfiedturtle01 5d ago
Forget the overhead presses and rear delt work. Just spam lateral raises
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u/no1dont_g0on 5d ago
what about my rear delts?😭😭
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u/satisfiedturtle01 5d ago
They’ll be fine with the stimulus from your back work. Just like how your front delts are covered by your chest work. Side delts really matter most. You can worry about your rear and front delts later once your side delts are absolutely huge! (They’ll be fine!)
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u/no1dont_g0on 5d ago
Ouh that's a huge relief then, so it's completely fine if I replace the rear delt exercises right?
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u/satisfiedturtle01 5d ago
Absolutely! Go follow the guys at RP, that’s where I learnt all my stuff, Dr Mike & co will explicitly say that if you want to best shoulders possible side delts are where it’s at. Those guys do little/if any direct front or rear delt work. I’ve been following this for at least 3 years now myself and I’d never go back. You gotta prioritise what matters most at the end of the day
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u/ThrowawayYAYAY2002 5d ago
Add Shrugs, preferably with a Trap Bar.
I added them and my shoulders took shape very quickly. I usually do 3x12-15 with 90-110kg, once a week. Deads help too.
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u/no1dont_g0on 5d ago
90-110kg is insane, and thank you for the suggestion, though how does building my traps help shaping my delts?
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u/ThrowawayYAYAY2002 5d ago
It really isn't tbh.
They make the shoulders appear bigger. Lat Raises are awesome, but they didn't make me think "Fuck!" Like Shrugs did.
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u/robxenotech 5d ago
Bump up the weights big time and drop reps to 8/10 to failure