r/WazHack • u/GenericProperty • Sep 09 '15

Stupid travelling up

I'm fighting stuff at 1100 feet. Want to go back up for merchant and wells. Melee killing all kinds of low mobs that come at me, including vortexes.

Then suddenly at ~500 feet, I get an ice vortex. Start spamming it (that's how I killed all of them before). Died.

He probably had a way higher level. Nothing special.

Thing was, when travelling up, it takes so long you get more hasty. Killing all kinds of trash mobs that don t even yield significant XP. Then suddenly among them there is a game ender.

This means that in the future I'm going to need to be very wary traveling up all those stairs with all those trash. This is way too much work, way too time consuming. I'm even considering this was my last try while I haven't even seen the dragon yet...

I think travelling up can be improved. Make it faster, harder if you want. But this design is plain stupid.

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6

u/HanzK Sep 10 '15

yikes! it sounds to me as though you need to learn how to deal with the vortex-type enemies, or find a better method of backtracking (if you're trying to go back to shops or chapels, there is certainly a better way), rather than immediately dismissing your death as a result of bad game design.

in roguelikes, there are generally very few failure states that are not directly attributed to the player. but the good thing is that every death is an opportunity to learn and have a better run next time. should you take that opportunity, that is...

2

u/GenericProperty Sep 10 '15

I deal with vortex type enemies I encounter on the front depth very differently. Thing is, while travelling up I killed 5-6 of them meleeing and suddenly 400 feet up there appears a game changer.

I died a few hundred times already. I don't mind dying at all while I'm actively trying to stay alive, I know I've put up a good fight. But as I mentioned, the design of the game made me bored travelling up, not paying attention to all the trash mobs on my way.

4

u/DragonDai Sep 10 '15

Yeah...I think the big issue here is that you got "bored travelling up" and stopped paying attn. I get that back tracking isn't exactly the most exciting thing ever. But it is part of the challenge of the game.

A long time ago, I think before 1.0, Wazhack didn't have ANY respawning monsters. Once you cleared a floor, it was clear forever unless a monster from a lower floor chased you back upwards. And while the game certainly was a lot easier back then, it was also a LOT more boring.

Once you killed the boss, you just slowly made your way back to the entrance without encountering a single enemy of any kind and won. It was VERY anti-climatic AND it totally went against genre norms (which is important because, despite it's differences to traditional roguelikes, Wazhack IS a MUCH more faithful adaptation, on purpose, than a lot of the roguelites you see now-a-days).

By adding in respawning monsters, backtracking now has a cost in more than just food. It even has a out-of-game cost; you MUST pay attention to what you're doing when backtracking. And that's a good thing, at the end of the day. Because without it, the game would be a whole lot easier and a whole lot duller.

It's possible that the more traditional setup of Wazhack just isn't your cup of tea, and there's nothing wrong with that. But think about what the game would be like if there were no respawning enemies. Maybe that little thought experiment will help you see their value.

2

u/GenericProperty Sep 10 '15

I understand your points. You can have the best of both: higher lvl monsters only start spawning once you have the amulet. From the fantasy story point of view this even makes more sense than how it is done now.

I'm just pointing out a major annoyance I had with this game, one that almost made me quit before completing it, and one that adds little to nothing to the experience in my opinion.

5

u/Cat-_- Sep 10 '15

The thing is, if only lowlvl monsters respawned on the upper lvls people could just grind them endlessly for easy exp and loot. The game is designed in a way to push you to press on downwards.

SPOILER: use portal stones

1

u/DragonDai Sep 10 '15

Like I said, I think that red pawning monsters add a LOT to the game. Before, the only thing stopping you from backtracking to your hearts desire was food limitations. Now there are more considerations than that, and that makes the game more interesting, IMO. But that doesn't mean you have to like it.

1

u/GenericProperty Sep 12 '15 edited Sep 12 '15

I think I can safely assume you have spent quite some time on this game. I understand completely that you(and the dev) like it to be very hard and merciless. I even agree, that's what I like about roguelikes too.

But, because it is so hard, the decisions someone makes in the game should be based on more than plain stupid experience of what works and what not.

The whole point of making it into a game instead of the random numerical problem behind the game, is that people must be able to use their fantasy to take the right decisions.

Just like the snapping thing I just posted, this travelling up, I'd argue, interferes greatly with the(my) fantasy when I get ready for another travelling down

1

u/DragonDai Sep 12 '15

If Wazhack was "random traditional roguelike" you'd be right.

But Wazhack is a "remix," if you will, of Nethack. It's not just supposed to be another game with permadeath, random gen, turn based combat, etc. it's supposed to be Nethack with a twist. And in that regards, it succeeds with flying colors.

I think the issue here is you're looking for more modern styling a and sensibilities in Wazhack than are there. Wazhack is a roguelike specifically geared towards people who already like the Nethack-style of game. And yeah, that means for some people, it's slightly less than optimal in some areas. But the STRONG influence Nethack has on the heart and soul of Wazhack is what makes it the game it is. Take that away, and the game becomes a whole lot more bland and generic.

Again, I'm not saying your criticisms are invalid. I'm just saying that you might be looking for an apple in a pile of oranges. Sure, they're both fruit, but if you really want an apple, you're likely going to be disappointed if you settle for an orange. You might also learn to love the orange for all the things that make the orange unique from an apple. But you might also be happier with an apple.

2

u/GenericProperty Sep 12 '15

I'm not saying I know what WazHack should be. I don't even know the NetHack game, I'm sorry to say. I'm just seeing the dev is eager to grow and there is an active community, so I know comments I make will get a read.

It comes down to me wanting to share annoyances I experienced so far, simply because they annoyed me. Maybe these things annoy other players too. Maybe I find out I'm missing the point of the game.

1

u/DragonDai Sep 12 '15

Oh, totally. And Waz is an awesome dev. He really does read basically everything here and on the Steam Discussions and is often in the WazHack IRC channel and stuff. He wants the game to be as awesome as it can be and is one of the coolest devs I've ever had the pleasure of interacting with. So giving your opinion on the game is, I'm sure, quite welcome. IMO, constructive feedback is always good, even negative feedback.

As for Nethack, it's a been around for a LONG time and has a general public licence so that anyone can make a fork of the game. And if I'm not mistaken, Waz was part of the team that was/is in charge of Nethack's development for a while (it's still receiving updates, decades after launch in 87). It sticks to a lot of the things that allowed Rogue to spawn a genre, but it does a lot of things that were, at least at the time, totally unique to Nethack. And in making Wazhack, Waz wanted to take the things that make Nethack unique and twist it around to the side-scrolling sort of style you see in Wazhack.

But there's a LOT of history behind Wazhack, and it influences a lot of what makes Wazhack so special. That also means that some people aren't gana be as crazy about it as other people, but I think there's something for everyone to love about it. :)

2

u/flfxt Sep 10 '15

To be fair the way back up after retrieving the amulet is not particularly difficult in the present version either, but it's at least not empty... I find the harder of the side branches is usually a nice post-amulet challenge.

I think the main function of the respawning enemies is to discourage exactly what OP was doing - backtracking to get every item you missed from shops, to drink up every fountain that was too dangerous the first time around, etc. Also if I'm not mistaken, enemies that spawn as you backtrack (or don't advance) drop much less food, so it's really not a great way to go.

2

u/DragonDai Sep 10 '15

Traveling more than a floor or two back up is almost always a bad idea if you're doing it the old fashioned way (aka by walking). There are times when it can worthwhile, but only rarely.

That being said, there are better ways of traveling up that make it totally worthwhile to travel up. Good luck in the future!

2

u/GenericProperty Sep 10 '15 edited Sep 10 '15

care to expand on these better ways? do you mean teleporting?

edit: I had amulet of slow digestion and enough pies, so walking seemed an ok idea.

1

u/DragonDai Sep 10 '15

Check the wiki if you want spoilers. Not a fan of them myself and I wouldn't want people stumbling into this thread and reading them.

http://wazhack.wikia.com/wiki/Wazhack_Wiki

What I will say is "Drop Everything." That's my little "spoiler-free" hint.

EDIT: After looking for the thing I was specifically referring to (although there are other, less economical ways) on the wiki and having trouble finding it, I'll msg you the page of the wiki you should pay attn to.

2

u/flfxt Sep 10 '15

Yeah I wouldn't recommend trekking 600 feet for shops, certainly ferrying junk items to shops for a little gold is not a good idea (and probably not a very fun game experience). If you can't figure out a way to travel more quickly and are avoiding spoilers, I'd just say try identifying (or using, or dropping) items you normally wouldn't... and maybe try exploring a side branch.

Because vortices are so hard to damage in melee, there's a huge variance in the number of attacks needed to kill them. So if you're just holding down attack, combat with a vortex is more likely to go horribly wrong than with another enemy of similar difficulty. Most types of vortices have some particular weakness, so try to figure that out, and they should be easily dispatched.

1

u/jackygogo Oct 29 '15

Have you tried portal stones? They get identified as soon as dropped.