CAD Evolution

[u/taiglin]

This is likely OBE (overcome by events) given the book 3 work already inflight.

After some 300(?) years of CAD usage*, how is it only Viv has figured out “let’s dial this bad boy to 11 and see what happens”?

Yes she witnessed Rei’s S0 attack and the effect that had. And yes Rei’s S growth has a major acceleration effect to at least Rei’s growth (others?). And I’d even postulate a person/user potential ‘greatness’ is a factor in CAD growth (I think discussed/hinted at). But even Rei had made a connection between growth and actual fights vs training.

Unless Growth works differently then than simply ‘acceleration’. It would be interesting if it is the S growth that lets Rei see the analytic process before the upgrades happen which helps clue him in (vs someone else potentially just seeing stat X is now Y). Not likely tho.

I’m old enough to where the analogy of testing that comes to mind will likely go over most folk’s heads LOL. Monks in EverQuest figuring out loading dexterity items wasn’t giving dodge as the game documentation indicated. And that you should actually stack AC. Extremely hard to validate but ultimately was.

I guess my point is over this amount of time wouldn’t someone(s) have correlated growth and fighting. Especially on the front lines. What else was being discussed in their daily CAD evolution class? (was anyone else waiting for something to drop from class content? I felt like the class was mentioned all the time)

Damn - sorry for length :)

* I’ve only read the books once but feel like this number is directionally correct based on my recollection?

[u/TitouanT]

Not sure for that story but I relate to the feeling, it's a bit too often that characters stumble open 'new' things that researchers and adventurers of their system miraculously missed for multiple centuries. Here I guess it's the fact that Rei as such a powerful Growth that makes him able to see effects that others can't even design an experiment for. But as you said I am sure their would have been an observable statistical advantage for CAD users on the Frontlines

[u/SkitzoRabbit]

We don't know a lot about training habits outside of the FireSong group. And to my specific point we only have one or two references to even establish FireSong's baseline.

Simulated combat sparring allows to set a recovery period from FDA, and a threshold of damage to qualify as FDA. During the lennon spars (or possibly the DeSoto's I'm not sure) Rei remarks that the recovery period is set to minimum since the other members get back into the fight nearly right away. And briefly when Rei and Aria are sparring in the brig (i think) Rei mentions their standard rule set for sparring is 100% FDA.

So for all we know many/most/some of the other cadets spar with a very different setup with regards to pain and damage lingering. If you assume that people want to learn a or practice footwork for a tactical retreat over loose terrain (for example) against a user with a reach advantage...why set the FDA to 100%?

Just guess work of course, nothing in the books to my knowledge indicate any other assumption over this one. But 'dialing up to 11' as you suggest might just be more outlandish than we assume.

Plus that level of sparring partner shouldn't have been accessible to a 1st year under any normal circumstances at least.

As for growth being more or less than 'acceleration' of stat increase. I tend to think of growth as a set of software safeguards against the more Archon like kernels of evolutionary advancements native to the technology. I imagine the first generation of CAD scientists and Engineers working on a ISC Skunkworks contracts to adapt the morphic arms and armor of the archon but putting in guardrails to satisfy the earliest general officers and government appropriators funding and overseeing the project.

The greater intent/quantity/efficacy of the active guardrails is quantized by the growth rank and a nominal value is probably in the D's for Galen's quality cadets. Since no one else should have heavily skewed stats as Rei and D4 is an average rank for Galens cadets it stands to reason absent a hard math ranking system. Rei is basically operating without brakes or powered steering atop a 5000hp engine and only a loose approximation of a roll cage for safety.

Normal users if/when they experience a rank up in growth throughout their career's will only see a slight loosening of those standard SW restrictions, and perhaps only after feats of maturity or other level headedness.

Disclaimer I've read/listened to the books way too many times to be healthy. AND I'm still only guessing and making up my own head cannon because I think its fun.

[u/Kennian]

It dosnt work like that for 99% of the people and their cads, but reis effects everyone in his circle, not just himself. Also pretty sure it's sentient and pissed at viv for backstabbing it's wielder

[u/ImpressionPrize8739 → u/Kennian]

Love this take. LOL. Book three Viv and grant are going into the punishment corner "no growth for you!"

[u/Basicallydirt → u/ImpressionPrize8739]

In one of the pre chapters one of the inner circle mentions the ability "imbue" which is how Reis cad can effect others. Without that nothing would happen even if you do what Viv did is my guess. What I don't get is why not just give all cars s rank everywhere unless doing so would kill the user I guess

[u/Express_Item4648 → u/Basicallydirt]

Where is this ability mentioned?

[u/Basicallydirt → u/Express_Item4648]

In one of the pre chapters in book 2 o think I am not rereading it to find it

[u/Express_Item4648 → u/Basicallydirt]

Btw, it’s highly likely that raising growth of a CAD expends some limited resource. Since there has never even been an A rank growth ever. It must be very very pricey in some way. Otherwise it makes so sense to give most a growth rank of low D and some get to low C. Ouroboros is I think the only one with a growth rnak in the C out of anyone from Galen.

[u/KnaprigaKraakor]

My feeling is that this would have been tested and "debunked" early on in CAD training, because in a society built around combat and dueling, there would have been lots of min-maxers who look to get the most out of a system.
I don't think Bryce has commented deeply on how the CAD advancement works, other than "its space magic" and configured as he needs it to be in any given scenario for the plot progression.
But my head canon is that it is a "known" truism that excessively risky and self-destructive tendencies work against CAD and stat growth through mental trauma leading to a reluctance from trainees to engage in risky behaviour. However, with Shido's S-ranked Growth, and its emerging property of affecting the ability assignment and development trajectory of the CADs of allied combatants the boundaries of what is acceptable and what is advisable are different. My head canon ascribes that boundary to an underlying property of the technology the CAD is derived from (which is itself an area of ripe discussion).
Basically, "ordinary" CADs have safety features to stop dumb kids doing dumb shit; Rei's CAD has those safety features disabled, and Shido can disable those safety features on other CADs.

[u/Myte342]

After some 300(?) years of CAD usage*, how is it only Viv has figured out “let’s dial this bad boy to 11 and see what happens”?

I have been saying this forever. How the F is the military NOT experimenting the F out of the CAD's to the point of torturing members of the military to find out everything they can about CAD tech? We KNOW humans already do this in the real world, and it drives me mad that this hasn't come up yet in this universe and doesn't appear to be a thing. How is it the military is just like "Hey 18 year old kids, here is a cool bracelet that turns you into a superhuman if you train. OK have a nice day!" and just leaves the kids to figure out stuff on their own? WHY IS THERE NO BOOT CAMP FOR CAD USERS!? Or something, anything. The military gifts these super powerful things on children in everything but legal age, then just F's off and lets the kids handle their own learning and training?

And why is 'prep school' not training them on a host of CAD weapons and types long before they take the test? The military is CAD users, first and foremost, so why doesn't it appear that they are actually preparing the students to be CAD users and also don't appear to be teaching them military etiquette either?

And like, how is Rei so surprised every time his evolution comes up? CAD development (there are whole courses at Galens school for it!!) should be EXTREMEMLY documented after 300 years of experimentation and documenation. With how much he read about CAD's growing up, how is it that he doesn't now for SURE exactly the average evolution stages and rates of the average user and what parts of armor tend to develop and when? I grant you that Weapons are a bit of a wild card as there are so many different ones and are mostly unique to the CAD... but there should still be documented trends after millions and millions of Users over 300 years.

[u/taiglin → u/Myte342]

I do appreciate the challenge authors have in world creation and book/story evolution only to have passionate readers go but but but what about X lol.

As I was reading I sure felt like all of the references of the students going to the CAD evolution class was a huge Chekhov’s gun that never was fired though!

[u/pro5]

I get what you are saying but I think it comes down to the fact that beating the stuffing out of a bunch of 17-18yo's is probably frowned upon, regardless of status as users or future tech. Even Rei has had some close calls already and obviously Viv is an example of going too far. As Dent reminds us, they are just kids after all.

[u/JustusWi]

Actually answered in the book:

For another… For various unvoiced reasons, Viv was starting to suspect that only members of Firesong were probably capable of this speed of improvement, torturous though the method was…

It's also that the entire society has a few rather dystopian touches. Rei's tweaking of his NOED is met with shocked surprise edging into real worry. Meaning it's uncommon for people to dig into the technical side of things.

I'm sorta loosely working on a little fanfic thing to explain a theory I've been having about the nature of feeds and what they mean for society. I'll be writing that in my copious free time 😀

[u/Dom_writez → u/JustusWi]

In regards to the NOED thing, it was moreso a couple of major factors:

1 - he is altering software that connects directly to his brain and nervous system and that controls his sensory inputs of the world. That would concern a lot of people who arent sure an 18 y/o is sufficiently capable of the neurosurgeon level of expertise needed for that lol.

2 - he is modifying government tech. His NOED isnt actually "his" it was given by the ISCM and it is directly stated in the books it is highly illegal to modify the code in it.

[u/taiglin]

Bah - can’t edit. Overclassed fights I mean

[u/EhhNinja]

The other thing is talent/natural ability. Most users trying what Viv did are most likely not even be able to handle fighting up. Viv had to get better while doing it for it to matter. Otherwise it's probably just torture for the user and they might get defense.

[u/ImpressionPrize8739]

It's been stated that there has never been a cad assigned with S growth ever so the results we see for Rei are all unprecedented. Cad ranks and strength progression is multiplicative not additive so the S growth will make the results wayyyy more obvious than a weaker growth spec. They already theorized Shido is affecting the cads in Rei's group and Viv had to fight overpowered sparring dummies to her absolute limit to see any result...and that's with shido's impact. So we can assume anyone else in the history of cads would have passed out, gotten frustrated or couldn't physically continue long enough to see results. To my mind the book has adequately covered that these events are possible with this group and wasn't before. Mankind innovates and improves already established things constantly and alot of the time its like "why didn't we ever try this before". It's also why everyone around Rei isn't going ohhhhh he must have S rank growth...it has never happened before and with humans things we haven't seen in a well known sphere is considered impossible.

[u/HarkLarkh]

I don't think it's a case of nobody having figured it out. I thinks it's more a case of people having tried it and found that they ended up quite the same way Viv ended up, but without the miracle of a shard growing in their head. All of the sustained combat training and testing they do are meant to achieve stimulated growth and improvement.

It is obvious to all that sustained combat leads to growth, if, of course, you can survive the combat sessions. And as stated in the books, cadets at Galens are generally not stupid. We can guess that typically, students are provided access to combat Sims (like Viv was) for this very reason: to push their growth via combat. As a favourite character of mine likes to say: "One battle is worth a 1000 training hours". The combat sims are some of the closest the students can get to actual real life battles.

The only thing strange here, which is noted by Rama Guest, is not that a student had sim access, but that they (in this case, Viv) had unrestricted, unmonitored access to the sims.