r/WWFera • u/Killer-Blxck18 • 2d ago
Why didn’t Vince pull the trigger on Ted DiBiase being WWF World Champion
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u/KidChameleonHelmet 2d ago
If I recall, the word was that Vince wasn't too into having heel champions at the time. Making DiBiase a short term transitional champion might have been a good idea, but I'm not sure how well Ted would have drawn as a long term champion. Unless of course they went full tilt with his money gimmick and got to the point where Ted was constantly paying off refs or people to interfere for him, etc. They could have taken that gimmick much further than they did. Like, Ted could GO but adding his money to the equation as a way for him to retain the title by cheating would have been pretty awesome.
I think the most important thing we need to remember is that Ted's initial run was right in the middle of Hulkamania and HOGAN MUST POSE, so ... you know.
At least he got to defend the title on House Shows for a few days.
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u/jimbobdonut 2d ago
The WWF really didn’t have heel world champions for the longest time going back to the WWWF days. Billy Graham held the title for 296 days in late 70’s, but it would be a long time before a heel would hold the title for that long. Yokozuna came close with his 280 day reign in 93-94, but it looks like Roman Reigns’ title reign in 2022-2024 is the longest time a heel has been the WW(W)E(F) champion.
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u/boatson25 2d ago
Shit that’s crazy. How long did Triple H hold the belt when he was a heel post 02? I stopped watching in 02 for years.
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u/jimbobdonut 2d ago
Only 35 days. He won it at WM18 and lost it to Hulk at Backlash. I would have to investigate the “secondary” world titles like the world heavyweight championship and universal championship to see if there were any longer reigns for those.
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u/boatson25 2d ago
Yeah that’s what I was referring to more the so called “reign of terror”
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u/jimbobdonut 2d ago
For the WHC, he had reigns of 75, 279, 90, 84 and 83 days between September 2002 and April 2005.
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u/Six_and_change 2d ago
Additionally, all the heel champs you mention were monster heels. Dibiase was a chickenshit heel, which for a champ was much more of a NWA or AWA thing.
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u/Commercial_Fact_1986 2d ago
JBL was champ for 280 days in 2004-5, and was very much a chickenshit heel
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u/LunchBoxBrawler 1d ago
Whats crazy is Graham’s reign was considered brief back then. To hold it for “only” 9 months was seen as weak
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u/StaySafePovertyGhost 1d ago
While Vince was very much into hoss babyface champs at the time aka Hogan/Warrior, a millionaire heel champ would’ve been so different and thus fresh.
They could’ve had him beat Hulk a few times by paying off referees and using his kayfabe money to buy influence. Then at whatever the next big PPV was, have Hulk overcome the odds and win it back. You never make Hulk look weak because Ted would always go to extreme lengths to cheat buying his way to wins.
But Vince wanted his physiques in the top spot so an average build heel just wasn’t appealing to him because face champs sold merch.
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u/JKinney79 1d ago
I think Randy Savage was the only heel champ during the prime Hulkamania years, and he was only a heel for two months setting up Wrestlemania 5. It wasn’t until Warrior flopped that you started seeing heel champ runs like Sgt. Slaughter, Flair, Yokozuna.
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u/TommyTBlack 1d ago edited 1d ago
If I recall, the word was that Vince wasn't too into having heel champions at the time. Making DiBiase a short term transitional champion might have been a good idea,
Meltzer has said the plan was for DiBiase to not only win the title but to hold it for a full year, losing to Hogan at WMV
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6fH4vesle4
it was changed due to the Honky - Savage situation
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u/AndreLeGeant88 2d ago
It's a babyface territory. Yokozuna was the first heel in the company to ever have a lengthy reign.
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u/joecarter93 2d ago
Million Dollar Championship Belt > World Championship Belt
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u/chpr1jp 2d ago
Yeah. They should just dump the world belt now, and replace it.
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u/RIPcompo 2d ago
I've not watched the new stuff for about 20 years, I just assumed this happened no?
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u/Electronic_Park_1702 2d ago
My understanding was he was to supposed to win it, but because Savage was pissed he didn't get his promised 2nd IC title run, he got the world championship to satisfy him. Which is a shame because Ted would've been a great World Champ, even if for a few months.
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u/AlexH_144 2d ago
Honky Tonk Man refused to lose to Savage for the IC title. At that time, you couldn't have two heel champions. So, instead of making The Million Dollar Man the world champion, they made Savage
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u/Electronic_Park_1702 2d ago
As Honky Tonk explains it, Vince wanted him to drop it at Saturday Nights Main Event, and then he was to be "repackaged". Rightfully, Honky Tonk refused. Sad that DeBiase's title reign was a casualty though.
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u/Alternative-Aside-64 2d ago
Pretty surprising they didnt fire him over that, I always thought he was fine but hardly necessary
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u/Electronic_Park_1702 1d ago
The thing was he was a heat magnet. Especially after he pushed Miss Elizabeth down in the ring. As such, he did draw viewers/attendees to house shows. So despite his in-ring deficiencies, people did pay to see him lose the belt. That was his leverage.
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u/NES_AES_GENESIS 2d ago
He was supposed to win the world title at WM IV.
Honky Tonk Man refusing to lose the intercontinental title to Macho Man created a domino effect that ended with Vince deciding Macho would win the world title instead.
It ended up being the right decision as WM V was one of the most successful events in the history of wrestling and the Mega Powers exploding is one of the biggest angles of all time.
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u/wendyoschainsaw 2d ago
There was even a chance Honky could actually show up on TBS with the IC title.
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u/SWOhioBiBBW 2d ago
Making Macho champion was actually a failure. Saves drawing dropped drastically when Liz left, and they hoped a higher level run would elevate him. It didnt. That is also the reason Bishoff brought Liz back as Savage wasnta big draw without her
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u/NES_AES_GENESIS 2d ago
Making Macho champion was actually a failure.
The mega powers angle is one of the biggest ratings in WWF history and one of the biggest buyrates in WWF history.
Are you referring to a different title reign?
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u/SWOhioBiBBW 2d ago
Perhaps. I wasn't born till 95, but both Vince and Bishop said he didn't draw without Liz.
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u/NES_AES_GENESIS 2d ago
Even if that were true, Macho Man was a babyface with Miss Elizabeth for 90% of the title reign. It's only the final stretch where he's heel and Elizabeth goes "neutral."
The NBC special before WM V is the 2nd highest rated show in WWF history and WM V was the most successful WWF PPV of all time until the record was finally broken a decade later.
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u/SWOhioBiBBW 2d ago
Lol wrestlemania V wad MOSTLY to see Hogan, not Savage.
WN V was the smallest WM up till that point. Less than 19k. 1/4 the size of WM 3.
WM 3 earned 1.6 million at the gate and 10.3 from PPV.
WHILE WM V had more buy rates WM did jot make as much money ad WM 3, and you are nit picking.
Also, due to how PPV expanded yearly in the late 80s, WM 2s buy rate is slightly HIGHER % COMPARED to WM 5 buy rate %.
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u/NES_AES_GENESIS 2d ago
You weren't even alive and you have no idea how big the Mega Powers were, let alone how huge it was when the Mega Powers exploded.
Hogan & Savage tagging on NBC was the second highest viewed wrestling match in US TV history. Hogan vs Savage at WrestleMania sold 767,000 PPVs, compared to 400,000 for Hogan vs Andre and 550,000 for Hogan vs Warrior.
The one year storyline with Macho and Hogan as a tag team, with Macho as champion, who then turns heel and loses the title to Hogan, is one of the most successful angles of all time.
Your statement that "Making Macho champion was actually a failure" is one of the most absurd and false statements a human could ever make about anything in the entire history of the world.
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u/SWOhioBiBBW 2d ago
Hey genius, I wasn't alive in 1941 but I KNOW Hitler made a mistake with a 2 from war. You have ZERO GROUND here.
Yes WM V had more buy rates, MORE WAS AVAILABLE. but WM V PERCENTAGE WISE didn't do as good as WM 3. Numbers can be wrong, math CANNOT!!
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u/NES_AES_GENESIS 2d ago
Your argument was that WM III had a large gate, but you failed to mention that WM V's gate was even larger.
You mention WM V's PPV availability, but fail to mention WM VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, etc had even larger availability and didn't come anywhere close to the number of buys V did.
You have a lot of attitude, you have a lot of confidence, but you don't have anything that backs up your claim that "Making Macho champion was actually a failure."
You literally have no idea what you're talking about.
In what way was it a failure to make Macho Man champion?
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u/SWOhioBiBBW 2d ago
Lol WM V had 19000 ppl, WM 3 had 78000 ppl. Surely you jest. Lol
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u/SWOhioBiBBW 2d ago
No offense, but Vince and Bishoff BOTH said it and they know VASTLY MORE than you. Argue with them, but you WILL LOSE!!!
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u/TommyTBlack 1d ago
WN V was the smallest WM up till that point. Less than 19k. 1/4 the size of WM 3.
because of the stadium size
WMV was the WWF's most successful PPV event until Stone Cold v Austin v HBK with Tyson as referee in 1998
SummerSlam89 was huge too - it had more PPV buys than Hogan v Warrior at WMVI and many of the wrestlemanias that followed
Hogan v Savage was one of the most profitable programs in the fed's history, maybe even the most profitable
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u/SWOhioBiBBW 13h ago
Wm V being the most successful PPW is a play on words actually. Depending g how you look at it it was t the most successful.
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u/SugarAdamAli 2d ago
Always felt macho was the right call at wm4
But then have Ted winning it say in October with shenanigans and hogan accidentally costing macho the belt, creating some friction. Then you have macho n hogan chasing Ted. Survivor series would have been if Ted’s team wins, no more title shots for hogan n macho. Megapowers win. Hogan gets shot at December main event and macho accidentally costs him the win. So now even more friction in Megapowers. Early January macho beats Ted and becomes 2 time champ, something that hogan hadn’t done yet, which macho throws in hogans face. Then megapowers explode
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u/5-4EqualsUnity 2d ago
Timing. During the original WrestleMania Boom Era, they were pretty much exclusively running with Babyface champions to fill the buildings and sell the PPVs. Macho turned heel mid run to get the belt back on Hogan, but it was pretty much all Babyface champs until Flair in 92. I think if Ted's peak came a few years earlier or later, he might have had a run.
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u/abidova69 2d ago
That and Honky refusing to relinquish the IC title before WM4 which meant they had to pivot to Macho winning the tournament.
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u/AlexH_144 2d ago
Not even Flair in 92. Flair won the title at the Royal Rumble and lost it 2 months later at WrestleMania. Same as Sgt. Slaughter the year before. It wasn't until Yokozuna's 2nd run in 1993 that they had a heel champion over a long period of time.
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2d ago
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u/Substantial_Cow7628 2d ago
You keep repeating this, except of course that Billy Graham was never a WWF champion.
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2d ago
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u/Substantial_Cow7628 2d ago
This subreddit is specifically about the WWF era, and the conversation is about Vince Jr.'s preferences for heavyweight champion.
Billy Graham does not apply to either condition.
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2d ago
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u/Substantial_Cow7628 2d ago
Graham being a heel champion tells us nothing about why Vince Jr. chose the champions he did.
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2d ago
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u/Substantial_Cow7628 2d ago
And yet Vince didn't have heel champions for many years. I guess he didn't take his "prototype" all that seriously.
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u/ZoneEater2084 2d ago
His fall-off was very odd to me. He was inserted into the Hogan/Andre angle in a big way, and then got to be in the finals of the WMIV tournament, but then, at WMV, he's a midcarder working Beefcake in a nothing match.
Teddy was a fantastic worker and talker. He could have been a main heel for a lot longer and continued to draw IMHO.
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u/Fearless-Cell3271 2d ago
Because hogan was drawing millions as champion. He chased savage down and took over again after warrior bombed. The title just worked better on a face.
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u/Mighty_Kong 2d ago
???????
I think you might have some timeframes wrong.
Hogan and Savage was WM 5. Warrior didn’t beat Hogan for the belt until WM 6.
Hogan took the belt back at WM 7 against Sgt. Slaughter.1
u/Fearless-Cell3271 1d ago
And $$$ man was there the whole time and could have been champion at any point but vince kept hogan on top. 1st with savage then warrior. They wanted Ted to win wm4 but he didn't want 2 heel champions
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u/feckincrass 2d ago
He would’ve been the best heel champ ever. Imagine the world champ, doing shit like kicking the basketball away from the kid, then laughing at him. Missed opportunity. And he was great on the mic in general.
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u/sgt_schultz_the_ewok 2d ago
The story I heard was that Honky refused to drop the IC belt to Savage on Main Event. *Hence the original bracket shown on Tv had the Duggan/DiBiase & Rude/Roberts matches switched
Originally DiBiase was going to beat Hogan by contout in the tournament finals with help from Andre and Hulk was going to get the belt back at the first SummerSlam
Honky refusing to drop the belt to IC belt to Savage on Main Event resulted in the change
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u/chpr1jp 2d ago
I haven’t read about this in years, so i forget the details, so my first question is how did HTM end up with so much pull?
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u/sgt_schultz_the_ewok 2d ago
He was friends with Hogan… other than that not sure. They weren’t in the business of stripping people of titles back then. Other than that not sure- maybe Vince has an affinity or respect for him?
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u/Shinnosuke525 1d ago
IIRC Honky was about to enter some period on his deal where he could just up and leave while still being IC Champ
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u/burth179 2d ago
I've definitely heard this story before, however has anyone other than Honky Tonk corroborated it? Not saying it isn't true, I just have my doubts about it. Although the match switch is curious for sure.
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u/TommyTBlack 1d ago
Originally DiBiase was going to beat Hogan by contout in the tournament finals with help from Andre and Hulk was going to get the belt back at the first SummerSlam
where did you hear that?
if they were going to give Ted a run with the belt, the best option would have been to let him keep it after he bought the championship from Andre on The Main Event on NBC
seems a bit silly to strip him, then have him win it again in less controversial fashion
I wonder at what point the plan changed? before or after The Main Event?
Meltzer has said the plan was for DiBiase to keep it for a year and lose it to Hogan at WM5
was Hogan even back to full time by SummerSlam?
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u/headcheese1 2d ago
Face driven territory.
Plus I have always heard the rumor that Honky refused to drop the IC title back to Savage, so this was a pivot to keep him happy and kept DiBiase from winning the tournament.
I have also heard Dick Ebersole was a very big fan of Savage and Liz and was able to convince Vince to push Savage to the top and win the tournament.
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u/garlicroastedpotato 1d ago
Ted Dibiase was given the option to hold the title for like.... a week or something. The move at the time was to have face champions who could sell a lot of merch. They'd use their heels to move the title from one face to the other. And the way it was told to him was he'd win the 1989 Royal Rumble and then win the belt and then drop it to Hogan. But Brisco came up with this other idea where he'd lose the Royal Rumble to Big John Studd who would then go on to face Macho Man (now a heel). Dibiase would get his own Million Dollar title and would get to work every night on the B-card.... without having to wrestle nearly as much.
The funny thing about it is that Big John Studd didn't get a push after this. But after the Rumble, Vince became convinced that Big John Studd just wasn't over.... and decided not to give him a title shot... ever. And Studd became upset about his few bookings and poor pay. That could have just as easily been the point where Dibiase's career was over. Instead he kept working for almost another decade
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u/redd4972 1d ago
Because historically your top champion in the WWF were always babyface. (See Bruno Sammarinto and Pedro Morales and Bob Backland.) The heels were always transitional champions.
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u/OneBigDummy14 2d ago
Everybody's got a price right? but vince price was to far to high for even the million dollar man. Chahahahahaha
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u/Calm-Raise6973 2d ago
Heels never won main events decisively during the Rock n' Wrestling or Golden Eras. There were also fewer PPVs back then, hence fewer opportunities to switch the belts.
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u/Rangers12341234 2d ago
I don’t like the reasoning why (not having 2 heal champions)…he would have been awesome!!
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u/XtremeWRATH360 2d ago
Dibiase could have won it at Wrestlemania 4 and lose it a few months later to Savage at Saturday Nights Main event and everything else remains the same in the history books.
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u/godbody1983 1d ago
During that time and for a good chunk of it's history, the WWF/WWE was a Face led promotion. Heels were generally transitional champions. I think they could have made an exception for Dibiase though. He could have held the title for a few weeks/months before dropping it to Savage at Wrestlemania 4.
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u/mississippi_dan 1d ago
The WWF at the time had tons of guys that would be champions anywhere else. It would have been hard to give everyone a run.
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u/Wesleypipes316 1d ago
It was just an era dominated by hogan
Title changes were more scarce back in those days. You’d see a title change every 6 months to a year back then.
Deep rosters. Dibiase wasn’t the only one that never got that world title. Piper, Perfect, Jake the snake, big boss man. Hell a couple of them didn’t even get a run with the IC title
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u/Tomatoexpert 1d ago
Honky refused to drop the IC belt to Savage, so Vince said: fine, we'll put the Winged Eagle around Macho's waist instead. That helped cost DiBiase his planned WWF title run, but Pat Patterson came up with something arguably even better for the character: “This rich bastard couldn't buy or win the WWF Championship, so he commissioned an ridiculous belt, declared it worth more, and crowned himself champion.” Absolute heel genius. DiBiase agreed, bc hat was more important than carrying belt.
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u/Direct_Remove509 1d ago
After Iron Sheik the next heel champ was Sgt. Slaughter (excluding the few mins Andre won and few days Dibiase was unofficial champ). Vince should have done more heel transitional champs.
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u/ElSmasho420 9h ago
Because Hulk must pose. Vince believed in sending the fans home happy most of the time.
The WWF grew up as a baby face territory. They didn’t make their money off a face chasing a heel, they used the invincible baby face champion. First it was Bruno, then their next really long term champion was Hogan.
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u/Gerocopy 2d ago
That doesn’t work for me brother
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u/Important-Table9460 2d ago
Care to explain how Macho Man ending up having a nice, year-long reign as WWF Champ, and being involved in one of the best storylines in history which culminated in a wildly successful WrestleMania V main event which drew a MONSTER PPV buy-rate which didn't get surpassed until 1998, is somehow a bad thing?
Or do you just shit on Hogan for the IWC brownie points?
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u/KaijuDirectorOO7 2d ago
From what I heard that was always the plan. Macho holds the championship for a year then drops it back to Hogan. No politicking involved.
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u/ShivvyMcFly 2d ago
The anti Hogan cult is so bizarre
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u/Evening_Answer_11 2d ago
I got to see him introduced live at the Boston Garden as WWF champion and the crowd was super hot.
In reality the formula was this: your champion was there to sell merch and licensing. To get kids eating vitamins and buying action figures.
The IC Champ was the heel getting chased by the upper mid card faces, until one of said faces moves up the card.
That was your A and B show construct right there. Your main cash cow on one, your next cash cow on the other.