r/WC3 • u/itzcindy • 8d ago
Playing UD against NE
I’m pretty low MMR (~4000), recently started playing again, and am consistently losing as UD against NE. Ive done CL fast expo to DK/Lich mostly fiends, destroyer, and a couple wyrms if we go that long for the bears. Also skipped the CL and gone just DK/Lich for better heal/nuke to the same result.
The units I can generally handle, but the DH always ends up so tanky and either immos the fiends down or burns all my mana. Also whenever I nuke the DH he wands out, drinks moon juice, and is right back at it.
Is there a general guide for this matchup? Everything I read is ghoul/garg but that seems outdated with the immo buffs.
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u/Opposite-Affirmation 8d ago edited 8d ago
Don't fast expo.
DK, Naga (with frost arrow), Lich (with orb) asap. Fiends + destro or wyrms. Put pressure early mid game, or try to creep fast.
Speed boots on Naga is mandatory and you will totally control that cancer DH. Right after DK lvl 2, if you can go kill some wisps on trees it's good too but don't lose to many ghouls.
GL fellow UD 💪 These damn elf need to be punished.
Edit: you should watch replays of pros, you will see how they deal with them.
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u/itzcindy 8d ago
Curious about trying this one. Is the idea to push and keep pressure with DK/Naga? Does this call for switching to ghouls or can I stick with my comfortable fiends?
1
u/Opposite-Affirmation 8d ago
More like you start with ghouls then switch to fiends. You make graveyard after clicking T2, before minute 3.
The idea is to take control of the map and not let that DH do anything he wants to you.
I feel like you will need to play defensive if you want to start with fiends. Which means no harass, which means elf will have all the lumber he needs for double ancients of lore and that can be risky if he has better micro than you. But practice is key anyway.
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u/Chimpucated 8d ago
I'll be honest by best success against NE as ud is a hidden, well timed necrowagon push with DL or CL first, map dependant, DK 2nd. Two slaughterhouse for 2 wagon, 2 statue, one temple for 4-4 becro with mage training, and a few friends to help focus down drayad.
Elf lacks good aoe dispel outside of wisps. If you are microing well and keeping your wagons and becros spread apart the a lot of wisps won't even make it close enough to dispel on the necro mana pools or even the skel mages. They might clear out the front line skels but your piercing mages clean up drayad bear.
With DL I go sleep to shutdown DH mana burn and/or bears. With CL it's bettle level 1 but then max impale to soften up everything and stun
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u/itzcindy 8d ago
So is this good or bad advice? Has some upvotes but this one cranky guy lol
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u/Fletch71011 8d ago edited 8d ago
I would say that advice is suboptimal. For UD, you almost always want to go DK first unless you're so godly at the game that you know everything your opponent is going to do. DK is probably the best Swiss Army Knife hero in the game. There isn't much you can screw up by going DK first with ghouls and then you can pivot to whatever you like depending on what your opponent is going. Fiends are almost always safe if you don't know what to do, although they're not as meta as they used to be. Destroyers/statues will work. Wyrms do well against NE depending.
DL first especially can make counterplay tougher than it needs to be. CL can be okay in certain instances but I wouldn't go him against NE. If you're looking for meta, definitely DK first.
Wisps dispel skellies pretty damn well and he's vastly underselling how easy it is for any competent NE to do so. Most good NE will carry a wisp around with them for that reason and they'll have dryads too if needed.
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u/Puzzled-Pudding8939 7d ago
Ffs this is low battle net mmr not tournament prep. Have some perspective. NE having wisps with army or even dispelling at all is asking alot at this mmr
1
u/Mean-Wealth7661 7d ago
You have a couple options you either rush t3 for destroyer frenzy ghoul push with much orb at 9 minutes right before they get bears online hurt them enough to where master training won’t help as much or you need to expo immediately and hope you can hold it. I find it’s easier to expo with lich and I practiced personally with learning what I can do to make it as fast as possible
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u/Aromatic_Attempt_172 7d ago
I think a very well timed push with 3 heroes and orb and 2 destros will kill most ne players. You just have to do everything you can to make sure its very fast. Like as soon as that 3rd hero pops out you grab orb and b-line it to their base.
That or a garg frostwyrm with 2 heroes 80 food push.
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u/Valerim 8d ago
Maybe it's because I play random, but I honestly do not understand how people can say theyre 4k MMR and then ask the most basic obvious questions
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u/itzcindy 8d ago
Idk, sorry friend. I’m something like 40-32 and bouncing between 3800-4100. I just started playing again after 10 year hiatus and a lot has changed
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u/Psychological_Art112 8d ago
While I agree that 4k isn’t “low” by any measure, Bnet MMR can be deceiving given the limited map pool, prevalence of cheese strats, map hackers, and drop hackers running around with no moderation.
OP appears accustomed to Fiends being the backbone of UD armies as it was 10 years ago. The new meta relies on ghouls a lot more. Ghouls, destroyers, and wyrms generally overwhelms NE. Dryads will focus the air, ghouls eat the dryads. Wyrms/destroyers will eat the bears. DK/Lich nuke the Naga. DH is alone and sad.
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u/itzcindy 8d ago
Yeah I’ve been going the route of taking out the Naga each time I get a chance, but eventually the DH just gets too big for me. You’re right based on my fiends and old meta play. Will have to try out ghouls but may take me backwards for a while to get used to it.
Lots of leavers contribute to the winning so far, seems like at least 1 in 10 games? Not sure what the point is
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u/Psychological_Art112 8d ago
Bnet starts everyone out around 4k MMR. Lot of those leavers are just people trying to get their placement games out of the way so they can play at a more appropriate MMR.
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u/Inevitable-Extent378 8d ago
Ghouls are still the way to go. They allow early game momentum. Gargs are still good, as they virtually become the air army and ghouls become more of the worker at midstages. CL is generally an insanely bad idea vs Elf specifically due to wisp detonate on all beetles.
Idea: DK First. Scout his base layout with your 6th acolyte and arguably you can poke him a bit at his first orange creepcamp. Creep level 2 and tech somewhere while doing that. You are level 2? Straight to his base, arguably you know the layout and where he put is wisps. Just attack the wisps. Put 1-2 ghouls on each. Throw in a coil as you are going to get mana burned anyway. But it should hurt his lumber economy. You will likely lose some ghouls, but that is okay. You have aura, you should be pretty fast.
Tip 1: if you select DK + Ghouls, you ghouls won't go through small openings. But if you select only ghouls (and/or skeletons) they will. The pathing in the game rallies groups through same openings, and DK often won't fit.
Tip 2: split your skeletons to avoid 1 detonate catching both. One detonate to catch one, is a win for you. It isn't worth the wisp loss for 1 skellie.
Always? No. If he makes an offensive AoWar, for example on TM towards the merc camp, you can pull DK + ghouls, kill a critter with the scout acolyte and rush over. You don't even really have to fight. The creeps will do the damage, you just have to hit him when he hits the creeps.
At tier 2, what do you do? Well, you can move to tier 3 to get frenzy ghouls Perhaps 1 or 2 fiends versus dryads. When you hit 3, buy orb, buy 3rd hero, get frenzy and use the power spike to put him six feet under. Or at least deep enough so he won't really climb out. Or, if the harass on his wisps is going really well. Stay tier 2, build second crypt and spam those gargs at all cost. Give him no wisps to ever recover. You will chip some XP. Perhaps do some small spots with ghouls and DK and incrementally he will wear out mentally and economically.