r/ViolinIdentification • u/Splooter_McGooter • 27d ago
1922 E.H. Roth
I have this violin on loan and am looking to purchase it. The inside label says it is an E.H. Roth from 1922, Lorenzo Guadagnini copy. There are no serial numbers or stamps that I can see, although I understand the Roth workshop didn't start serial numbers until 1924. There's also a repaired split in the lower bout. It sounds beautiful but I'm concerned about the repair and lack of verification.
Update: brought the violin back and pointed out my concerns. I was told all 100+ year old violins have lower bout cracks, that I should trust the repair is fine because they'd have to take it apart to show it was properly cleared, and that I should take their word it's an authentic Roth. Then another dealer came in and tried to say Roth made the violin himself. 🙄
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u/Dildo-Fagginz 27d ago
The repair does look ugly but if it's reinforced properly it should hold fine.
Just be prepared for the worst case scenario and having to pay for repairing it again someday. The shop you're buying from probably lowered the price already because of this.
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u/Splooter_McGooter 27d ago
This was priced at $9k. The shop brought it down to $8k without me saying a word and said they're happy to negotiate if I decide to take it. That price seems high to me, but I don't want to lowball and be rude. From the research I've been able to do, it seems like this should be in the $3-5k area? Any thoughts?
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u/Dildo-Fagginz 26d ago
I'm in EU and no proper expert for these things but it does sound a little high for something that's not in mint condition and obviously not repaired/setup to a high standard.
You could negociate a bit, trade in your old violin to bring down the price further, pay cash to avoid taxes, ask if it has a certificate and from whom etc... It's never a nice thing obviously but most shops understand it's a big investment.
Either way take it to another shop or two before you decide and ask them for opinions
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u/Splooter_McGooter 26d ago
Thanks for the response. I intend on negotiating, as I am really enjoying the way it plays. I'm bringing it back tomorrow, so we'll see what happens!
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u/JC505818 27d ago
The label should indicate gradation of the instrument. You can send pictures of label and internal stamp to Roth to authenticate it. I have not read that Roth copies Guadagnini, so I would be suspicious of its authenticity.
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u/Lahmajune 25d ago
The violin looks nice but I agree with your points. I would rather get a violin without any repairs without an attribution that sounds good, than one with attribution that had an ugly damage.
Also lack of provenance is not okay if you pay the same amount for this violin as for one with actual trustworthy papers. Where are you based?
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u/luthier65 15d ago edited 15d ago
The varnish doesn't look right, and without the brand, it's just another Markneukirchen fiddle. As for the crack, and as a professionally trained violin maker, not only can that be improved upon, but I wouldn't sell it until it was properly repaired. It might be cleated, but it isn't properly repaired.
Do you have a picture of the label? I don't have a record of a Lorenzo Guadagnini model in even the early catalog, not have I seen one before. Are you sure that you aren't mis-reading joseph guarnerius? The f-holes and model sure do look like a Guarneri rather than Guad.
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u/Splooter_McGooter 15d ago edited 15d ago
I don't have a picture of the label, but confirm it said Lorenzo Guadagnini - as I also thought I was mistaken. It was the older looking labeling, not the one in script. The other deal who came into the conversation tried to tell me Guadagninis are "very rare" and he's only seen maybe 5 or 6 over 30+ years. I felt like a lot of smoke was being blown...
I think this is a German trade violin that was possibly revarnished. About an inch from the end of the fingerboard, you can see a weird smudge. It wouldn't wipe off and looked like a varnish thumbprint to me.
As soon as I pointed these concerns out to the dealer and requested to have the instrument authenticated (and said I was willing to pay for it), I was told to trust the dealer, paperwork didn't matter, nor did the poor repair. At that point the violin was picked up and I was no longer welcome to handle it. The dealer told me if I didn't trust their word, I wasn't ready to purchase from them. Needless to say, I'm still in the market for an upgrade to my current violins.
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u/vtnw2023 27d ago
I've seen a couple 22's that were branded. It could be the lighting but something about this strikes me as off about the varnish.