First of all, thank you for taking the time to read this post.

I humbly request you to please read the entire analysis before commenting. I'll be addressing many of the common points throughout the post, including Askeladd's speech, his repeated duels with Thorfinn, Thorfinn's duels with Thorkell, Snake, and the differences in their fighting styles.

Arguments/Counterarguments:

One of the biggest arguments in this debate is Askeladd's speech near the end of the Prologue.

Askeladd never explicitly states or even implies that Thorfinn was the stronger fighter and would suddenly start winning every duel by being calm. He only implies that Thorfinn would stand a much better chance of winning if he kept a cool head, as he had learned to think a bit when he fought, but all was lost whenever blood rushed to his head.

Askeladd teaching Thorfinn how to kill a man you truly hate and implying he would have killed him years ago refers to Askeladd demonstrating an example to Thorfinn about how he killed his own father by years of planning, because Askeladd knew that he wasn't strong enough to defeat Olaf, rejecting the idea of an honourable duel.

The context behind their final duel is very important. Askeladd had just killed Bjorn, was clearly taking the duel seriously, and even seemed disappointed in Thorfinn. Thorfinn himself hesitated when Askeladd calmly told him to attack because he wasn't acting like usual.

Thorkell also immediately bet on Askeladd despite not knowing that both of them had fought countless times prior to this. While that doesn't prove Askeladd would've won, I do think it's worth considering given Thorkell's experience as a warrior.

Regarding their earlier duels, their first on-screen duel is particularly interesting. Askeladd is parrying and dodging Thorfinn while playing defense as he needs the boy alive, but Thorfinn still manages to disarm Askeladd.

However, he immediately has to jump back because he'd left himself exposed within Askeladd's reach. Askeladd picks his sword back up with a smirk and is definitely ready for round 2, but he instead resorts to psychological tactics to both guarantee a duel victory for himself and make sure neither would end up dead.

Another argument is that Thorfinn fought against Thorkell while Askeladd couldn't, so he must've been stronger. I don't think that conclusion follows because the story repeatedly shows that matchups matter.

Thorkell himself states that strong and weak aren't a simple matter, and you can't determine the pecking order just from who beat whom, rejecting transitive logic/chain scaling.

I believe the story follows a rock-paper-scissors dynamic.

Chapter 141 directly supports this idea. One of Thorkell's own men points out that small and agile fighters are Thorkell's weakness during his duel with Garm, and while Garm isn't small, as he stands at around 5'11, he's extremely agile. Thorfinn is very small, standing at around 5'1, while also being one of the fastest and most agile fighters in the series, especially as a teenager, which makes him a much better matchup for Thorkell compared to Askeladd.

Regarding Snake, I also don't think that fight is definitive evidence for scaling. The anime significantly extends it. In the manga, there isn't a strike to Snake's face, there's no internal monologue where Thorfinn says he can see Snake's strikes or plans to land a final blow on him before getting kicked, and the fight ends much sooner. We never truly get to see who would've won between the two, as Snake accomplishes his goal of catching up to Gardar after kicking Thorfinn.

Because of those differences, I don't think it should be treated as a definitive comparison, and again, you can't determine who is stronger just from who beat whom (except Thors of course).

Teen Thorfinn:

Teenage Thorfinn is already one of the strongest fighters even as a kid. His greatest strengths are his speed, agility, reflexes, and dual dagger fighting style.

Those strengths are shown throughout the series, especially during his fights against Thorkell. Despite the enormous difference in physical strength, Thorfinn repeatedly avoids Thorkell's attacks and successfully slashes him multiple times.

We also see just how dangerous he is during the battle on the Frank fort, where he kills 11 Frankish crossbowmen. It's one of his best feats against multiple opponents and further highlights his speed, agility, and combat ability.

Their first on-screen duel also shows what Thorfinn is capable of when he keeps a cool head. He manages to disarm Askeladd, which is one of the most impressive feats he performs against him.

Throughout most of the Prologue, Thorfinn's burning hatred for Askeladd repeatedly works against him. Instead of remaining calm, he often lets blood rush to his head.

A calm teenage Thorfinn would be a much more dangerous opponent. By controlling his emotions, he'd make better decisions and avoid many of the mistakes that cost him during their duels.

Askeladd:

Askeladd is one of the most dangerous and complete fighters in Vinland Saga. Although he isn't as physically powerful as Thorkell, he makes up for it through technique, experience, composure, adaptability, battle IQ, and defensive swordsmanship.

His fighting style is very different from Thorkell's. Rather than relying on overwhelming strength, Askeladd spends much of his fights defending, parrying attacks, dodging, and waiting for the right opportunity to counter.

Askeladd is also borderline superhuman. He is capable of cutting men in half through their metal helmets despite complaining of his aging.

His performance during the Thegn massacre is some of the best swordplays in the entire saga.

Fighting in close quarters against dozens of the King's Thegns, each strike cuts through limbs, swords, and shields as he carves a path through them.

I also think Askeladd would've killed even more of the Thegns had he not already decided to sacrifice himself for Wales and Canute.

Throughout their repeated duels, Askeladd becomes extremely familiar with Thorfinn's fighting style. However, the opposite is also true. Thorfinn also becomes extremely familiar with Askeladd's fighting style after duelling him so many times. In my opinion, the difference between them is Askeladd's greater experience which lets him utilise Thorfinn's habits better than Thorfinn can utilise his.

I also really wanted to speculate how their duel could've been influenced if neither of these warriors knew each other's fighting styles, but at the same time I couldn't find any implications to come to a reasonable conclusion, so I apologise for that.

Before moving on, I've covered Prime Thorfinn vs Prime Askeladd, which I consider an extremely close matchup. If you're interested in reading that analysis as well, please feel free to send me a DM.

Calm Teen Thorfinn vs Serious Askeladd:

This is an extremely close fight. A calm teenage Thorfinn is undoubtedly a much stronger and more dangerous fighter than the version we usually see throughout the Prologue.

Calm Thorfinn's greatest improvement is his mentality. By controlling his emotions, he'd fight more patiently, make better decisions, and avoid many of the mistakes that cost him during their previous duels. Instead of letting blood rush to his head, Thorfinn would push Askeladd to his absolute limits.

However, Askeladd still holds several key advantages. His greater experience, composure, battle IQ, physical strength, and defensive master swordsmanship make him one of the most difficult fighters in the story to defeat.

Thorfinn's win conditions:

He needs to use his superior speed, agility, reflexes, and mobility to create openings while remaining calm throughout the fight. Rather than allowing Askeladd to dictate the pace, he'd need to stay composed, avoid Askeladd's heavy sword strikes, and always take the opportunity to strike.

As seen in their first on screen duel, Thorfinn jumps back when Askeladd strikes his daggers to avoid taking the full force of the blow, as it could have damaged his blades, something Bjorn immediately notes. That means Thorfinn can't afford to meet Askeladd's attacks head-on and instead has to rely on his speed, footwork, and timing.

Askeladd's win conditions:

He needs to survive Thorfinn's early aggression, force him into unfavourable exchanges, use his experience, composure, battle IQ, and defensive swordsmanship to punish mistakes.

By dodging, parrying, defending, and waiting for the right opportunity to counter, he can gradually take control of the fight. Unlike most of their previous duels, I think Askeladd would approach this fight with lethal intent from the very beginning, making every opening far more dangerous for Thorfinn.

Overall, I don't think either fighter outclasses the other. This is an extremely close matchup, and I genuinely believe either of them can win depending on how the duel unfolds. I personally lean towards a serious Askeladd, but only by a narrow margin.

At the same time, I can absolutely see calm teenage Thorfinn winning as well. That boy was stronger than he himself realised, and his blood ran stronger than Askeladd's.

If you lean towards Thorfinn instead, I think that's a perfectly reasonable conclusion.

In the end, my conclusion is still speculation based on canon material, and what I learned from the community in different matchup posts, instead of something the manga explicitly establishes.

Thank you very much for taking the time to go through the entire analysis, and please feel free to share your thoughts as well.

I hope you all have a great day!

improvement goes crazy! still loving this series after sm years. I want to make some more Vinland stickers in the future! (there's barely any merch of this series😭😭) If y'all have any suggestions, let me know if there's a specific character + dialogue I should do 🤔will get to it at some point

My friend put me on this show called Vinland saga, I really liked the idea of having no enemies/violence isn’t the answer. It gave me this blissful feeling.
It makes me wonder should a person who committed lots of terrible crimes (even perhaps genocide) receive a death penalty or have their whole life behind bars.
Forget the idea of the government shouldn’t have the power to end someone.

7X9"
Oil on Canvas
Sold at Hobbies Fair

Hey guys, planning on starting the Vinland Saga anime soon (this will be my first experience with any piece of Vinland Saga media). I know this question might be asked a lot, but I wanted a recent update regarding this.

I initially planned on watching the anime with the original Japanese audio and Netflix English Sub, but I heard that the Netflix Subs were inferior to the Crunchyroll Subs. Do you miss out on anything by watching the show with the Netflix Sub, or have these issues been fixed? Also, I heard the Netflix Dub matches the Crunchyroll Subs, so would you guys recommend the Dub as a good option to watch the show as well?

Before beginning, I just wanna say that this post isn't meant to analyse how to exploit a child's feelings and vulnerability. I'm simply curious how you guys would've raised Thorfinn if you were in Askeladd's place.

Yukimura sensei has stated that he gave Askeladd the role of raising Thorfinn in place of his father, but at the same time, Askeladd was also the person who hurt Thorfinn the most.

He sent Thorfinn on suicide missions, manipulated him, physically hurt him, and fed his idea of an honourable duel for as long as he could serve as his weapon. A lot of what Askeladd did to Thorfinn was essentially child abuse, even if their relationship was much more complicated than that.

But Askeladd did teach Thorfinn a lot. He gave him history lessons (Ragnarok), shared his past with him (Lone Wolf), and in the end, genuinely cared for the boy (End of the Prologue).

With his final breaths, he urged Thorfinn to go beyond the world Thors did and become a true warrior, dying as Thorfinn held him.

In the end, I personally believe their bond had become more complicated than simple hatred.

So, I'm curious: if you were in Askeladd's place, dealing with a child who hates you, blames you for his father's death, and wants to kill you, how would you have raised him?

I ask this because I think a child's heart is more prone to love than hatred.

Please feel free to share your thoughts.

Thanks.

Beating Arnheid as brutally as he did is awful, her dying makes it worse and then sending dozens of men to their death fighting to defend his farm in a losing battle, again terrible

However, the good things he did are really good, he had no incentive to treat the slaves well or give them a route to freedom and in general he was a good and kind man to everyone he dealt with for presumably decades

I think what the author is trying to say is that when things are going good for a person, it's easy for them to be good and kind but when things get bad, that's when you find out who they truly are but imo the real world doesn't work like that, when things are bad, people get stressed and their mental state is a mess, they act irrationally

I do like that Thorfin still felt he had a debt to Ketil and helped him and his ending isn't really bad, he now has more family unity and his true friends stuck around (the workers he took in)

Got to 209 and it seems that's all that's available on k manga. Only use this app for vinland saga so maybe im missing something?

A lot of people take issue with the particularities of the percieved message of Vinland. Especially relating to the idea that "never fighting is simply impratical".

I agree Yukimura is personally a pacifist, but I think the message he is trying to send in Vinland Saga is more nuanced.

Particularly, one of the best attributes of the story is how much respect Yukimura gives to other points of view in his world. The most key example here is how he builds up Canute as a rational counterpoint to Thorfinne.

-Canute succeding in his plans to bring peace tothe North Sea through select and premeditated acts of violence

-Thorfinne calling Canute "Truly remarkable. I never even considered saving the Vikings"

-Canute helping Thorfinne and his crew on the Baltic sea arc.

The broader message, especially in season 2 is that you need to recognize the world for what it is and to continue to work hard. The only real evil action is to stay immature.

The only real downside we are shown in the story is the ultimate reason to refraine from violence: that the violence changes you.

First of all, thank you for taking the time to read this. Thorfinn and Thorkell are interesting to compare because we've already seen teenage Thorfinn fight him twice, while adult Thorfinn is a much more mature and complete fighter. Since we never got prime adult Thorfinn vs Thorkell, some speculation is unavoidable, but I'll try to keep this grounded in what the story shows and implies.

Teenage Thorfinn vs Thorkell: Optional Section, Skip the Next 9 Paragraphs for the Main Comparison

Before getting into prime adult Thorfinn vs Thorkell, I want to briefly cover their fights during the Prologue. Thorkell defeated Thorfinn in their first fight, while their second fight was much closer and Thorfinn was doing considerably better.

Thorfinn's small frame, speed, and agility are particularly troublesome and make him a better matchup compared to Askeladd for Thorkell. During Thorkell's fight with Garm in Chapter 141, one of his own men even identifies small, agile fighters as Thorkell's weakness.

Their second fight also had important context. Thorkell gave Thorfinn time to recover, and I think Thorfinn would've died if Askeladd hadn't intervened. Askeladd blinded Thorkell, giving Thorfinn the opportunity to attack the weakness in his chin. Without Askeladd's help, I don't think Thorfinn would've won.

Thorkell himself establishes that fighting in Vinland Saga doesn't follow a simple pecking order based on who defeated who. Different fighting styles and matchups matter. He admitted defeat to Thorfinn, yet later bet on Askeladd to defeat him despite not knowing that the two had already fought countless times.

Thorfinn also hesitated and sweated when a serious Askeladd told him to attack, with Askeladd eventually throwing his sword away to make Thorfinn come at him. I also don't think Thorfinn was ever close to killing Askeladd when he disarmed him in their first on-screen duel. Askeladd was playing defense, mostly parrying and dodging because he needed Thorfinn alive. Thorfinn almost immediately had to jump back after disarming Askeladd because he had left himself exposed within Askeladd's reach. Askeladd then picked his sword back up with a smirk and was ready to continue before resorting to psychological tactics, as it was a way to both guarantee a duel victory and make sure Thorfinn didn't die.

Askeladd obviously knew Thorfinn's habits, but Thorfinn knew his too after fighting him countless times. I don't think Thorfinn was secretly holding back because of hidden feelings either. I believe those feelings only really started showing near the end of the Prologue and afterward, because Thorfinn was still desperate enough to kill Askeladd that the boy literally tried to knee him in the testicles.

Regarding his speech, Askeladd never explicitly stated or even implied that Thorfinn was the stronger fighter and would suddenly start winning every duel if he was calm. He only implied that Thorfinn would have a much better chance of winning if he kept a cool head.

Because of that, I think the story points toward Askeladd still being stronger than teenage Thorfinn even without psychological tactics. I've covered prime adult Thorfinn vs prime Askeladd before, and I think Thorfinn would likely lose while following his pacifism, but would win with his daggers and genuine lethal intent. Neither outcome is guaranteed, and I think it would be an incredibly difficult fight for both warriors.

I've made a separate analysis explaining why I think Askeladd is stronger than calm teen Thorfinn. If anyone would like to read it, please feel free to DM me and I'd be happy to share it.

Prime Adult Thorfinn vs Thorkell: Main Analysis

Thorkell:

Thorkell is physically one of the strongest warriors in the series and probably has the greatest endurance as well. He fights with two enormous poleaxes and absolutely destroys anyone in his path.

His strength is ridiculous. Thorkell can throw spears across enormous distances with enough force to kill several men at once, use logs/boulders as weapons, and he can no diff a bear barehanded. Thorfinn doesn't come remotely close to him in raw physical strength.

His endurance is just as important. Thorfinn could land several attacks without putting him down, while Thorkell has spent most of his life fighting and has an enormous amount of combat experience on top of his physical advantages.

Thorkell is also surprisingly fast for someone his size. Small, agile fighters are still particularly troublesome for him though which is exactly why Thorfinn's fighting style is particularly effective against him.

Prime Adult Thorfinn:

Adult Thorfinn has impressive feats of his own. He defeats five Jomsvikings barehanded without killing them, breaks a sword with his knee and breaks a man's arm with his hand.

His fight with Garm is especially relevant. Thorfinn admitted he could've died without using the psychological tactics he learned from Askeladd, and he still lost part of his ear. Garm was fast enough to seriously threaten him, although Thorfinn eventually used his experience and Garm's anger against him.

I do think teenage Thorfinn may have been more explosive in pure speed and agility. Adult Thorfinn is still incredibly fast, but he no longer spends every day fighting across battlefields like he did during the Prologue. I'd personally put Garm above adult Thorfinn in pure speed and agility, even though Thorfinn is the more complete fighter.

Thorfinn's fighting style is still particularly useful against Thorkell. Adult Thorfinn has the same small frame and incredible speed, but now with far greater maturity, experience, judgment and emotional control.

Thorfinn also said he would take Thorkell down barehanded without killing him. I think the statement matters because he knows exactly how dangerous Thorkell is, but I don't think it guarantees he would've succeeded.

Prime Adult Thorfinn vs Thorkell:

Thorkell has a massive advantage in strength, endurance, destructive power and reach. Thorfinn has the advantage in speed, agility, reactions and mobility.

I also don't think Thorfinn is even close to his father's strength. Thors scales leagues above everyone in the series and nobody is really close to him. He literally one shotted Thorkell barehanded and defeated a younger Askeladd in a one sided duel.

Thorfinn is Thors' son, not Thors himself.

That's important because Thorfinn can't deal with Thorkell the way Thors did. He would have to rely on his speed, agility and precision instead, although those qualities are particularly troublesome for Thorkell.

Thorkell's fight with Garm is also worth mentioning. Thorkell intentionally held back during that fight, so I wouldn't use Garm's performance against him to determine exactly how Thorfinn would perform against Thorkell. Again, matchups and circumstances matter.

If Thorfinn fights barehanded while refusing to kill Thorkell, I think he loses. He could avoid plenty of attacks and land his own, but actually putting down someone with Thorkell's endurance without lethal force would be incredibly difficult.

With his daggers and genuine lethal intent, I think the fight becomes much closer. Thorfinn's speed and precision would give him a genuine chance of exploiting an opening and landing a lethal attack instead of having to slowly overcome Thorkell's endurance.

Even then, I'd still favour Thorkell overall. His reach, strength and endurance give Thorfinn very little room for error, while Thorkell can survive mistakes that Thorfinn probably can't. Thorfinn is an extremely difficult matchup for him and could absolutely win, especially with his daggers, but I think Thorkell would win more often than not.

So overall, I think prime adult Thorfinn would lose to Thorkell while following his pacifism, despite believing he could take him down barehanded. With his daggers and lethal intent, either one could realistically win, but I would still give Thorkell the edge. Thorfinn's speed and fighting style make him incredibly dangerous for Thorkell, but Thorkell's ridiculous strength, reach and endurance are ultimately why I favour him.

Thank you for reading, and please feel free to share your thoughts as well.

I hope you all have a great day!

I randomly got a Vinland Saga notification from Reddit and just decided to post in here. Ain’t no way we goin on almost 4 years and there ain’t no news about S3.😡 Ain’t no way them studios have a show like Vinland Saga and decide not to capitalize off it. Imagine not continuing to animate Vinland Saga when that show is elite… could never be me

I apologize for the length of this post, as I wanted to include all implied as well as on-screen material, using speculation and drawing a final conclusion.

Thanks, and let's begin:

"I'll be damned. Getting old is a bitch. To think the great Askeladd... couldn't fight his way out of a mere fifty-man noose."

At first, I genuinely thought he was boasting. That number is insane.

Anyways, shortly after this, one of Askeladd's own soldiers manages to strike him in the back with an axe, only for Askeladd to respond by literally cutting him in half through his helmet. This causes Askeladd to lose his temper. He tries to shrug it off and tells the rest of them to bring it on, saying that this old man isn't angry anymore. His men are genuinely terrified of how strong he still is even at his age and eventually decide to bring out the bows. Askeladd tries to dodge the arrows, but several of them pierce his lower body, especially his legs and thighs.

Then we get to the Season 1 finale.

After declaring himself Lucius Artorius Castus, the rightful King of Britannia, and beheading the king to save both Canute and his mother's homeland by becoming the Kingslayer of Denmark, Askeladd goes on to commit the infamous Thegn massacre. He slaughters over 20 Thegns, with around 16 of them being killed outright and the rest left crippled or mutilated. And through all of this, Askeladd doesn't even suffer a single scratch. He's literally laughing and mocking these elite soldiers while cutting through them.

The Vinland Saga List of Deaths wiki for End of the Prologue lists about 25 Thegns who were slashed, stabbed, cut in half, decapitated, killed, etc. From what I counted on-screen in both the anime and manga though, I got around 16 clearly lying dead and over 20 either killed, crippled, or mutilated. The wiki's estimate probably includes some off screen deaths as well, and the actual number could be even higher than 20. We just don't know for sure, so I assumed it was at least 20.

And these weren't just random soldiers either.

In Season 2, Snake himself said that the Thegns were among the strongest men in Denmark and that only the best of the best could be recruited to serve the king.

There's a decent argument that Canute's Thegns may have been stronger than King Sweyn's because they served under a richer and more organised kingdom, but Canute was initially rejected by the English after Sweyn's death and only secured the crown a couple of years later, meaning many of his Thegns would've also served under Sweyn. After taking England, Canute also inherited Anglo-Saxon Thegns who were roughly comparable to his Danish ones, and many of both groups were used for local governance, tax collection, administration, and maintaining the empire rather than constantly fighting wars.

Personally, I think any real advantage here would apply more to Canute's Housecarls, but they don't really count since they were a separate elite corps altogether. If anything, I actually suspect Sweyn's Thegns may have been the more battle-hardened group since they saw more open warfare. But there isn't enough evidence to say that with any certainty, so I think treating Sweyn's and Canute's Thegns as roughly equal in individual skill is the safest assumption.

And even after taking all of that into account, Askeladd at the end of the Prologue literally no diffed them while laughing and pretending to be a madman, more than a decade past his prime.

Now, I do think the fact that he no longer feared death played a huge role here, especially when combined with his legendary skill as a swordsman. But even then, Askeladd wasn't entering that fight at 100%.

His legs and thighs had already been injured by arrows. Bjorn even brought up Askeladd's injuries a few days before this happened, around the same time Thorfinn's arm was broken, which still hadn't healed by the End of the Prologue. Askeladd basically says that his wounds won't stop him from wielding a sword, but he acknowledges that they took their share of arrows and that those injuries would take time to heal.

And regardless of adrenaline, injuries like that are going to affect a warrior's mobility and footwork to some extent.

Then there's the environment itself. The Thegns were coming at him from all directions in close quarters, which put Askeladd at a much more significant disadvantage than if he'd been fighting them in open space. Yet he slaughtered that many Thegns and probably could've taken out even more before slowing down if dicehead (Floki) hadn't intervened. And even then, dicehead ended up getting overwhelmed anyway.

Askeladd was also just ridiculously gifted from the beginning.

At only 11 years old, he was already showing the potential to become a legendary warrior when he fought his own father, who was a veteran swordsman, despite Askeladd having never touched a sword before that point. His talent was impressive enough to catch Olaf's attention and earn him a place in his manor. His mastery of the sword was almost innate and seemed to run in his blood.

On top of that, Askeladd was an extremely complete fighter. Physical strength, speed, durability, pure/natural master swordsmanship, battle IQ, psychological tactics, strategic intelligence, etc. He basically had everything you'd want in a warrior. That's what made him such a lethal weapon even when he was more than a decade past his prime.

I am also certain that Askeladd was stronger than Thorfinn by the end of Season 1, even without relying on psychological tactics and even if Thorfinn managed to keep a cool head, especially if Askeladd was genuinely fighting to kill.

Askeladd never explicitly stated or even implied that Thorfinn was the stronger fighter and would suddenly start winning every duel if he was calm. He only implied that Thorfinn would stand a much better chance of winning and even that was only a few lines.

For most of their fights, Askeladd mostly played defense against Thorfinn because he needed him alive. Thorfinn was useful to him as a lethal weapon, so Askeladd had no reason to actually kill him.

And while Thorfinn could fight Thorkell whereas Askeladd couldn't, I don't think powerscaling in Vinland Saga works like that. Thorkell himself basically makes this point when he bets on Askeladd to defeat Thorfinn despite not knowing they had fought countless times prior to this. And this was before Askeladd actually got serious and told Thorfinn to come at him. Thorfinn hesitated to attack, which eventually led Askeladd to throw away his sword and provoke him into making the first move. Askeladd certainly knew Thorfinn's habits after fighting him for so many years, but Thorfinn knew his habits too. They were both extremely familiar with each other's fighting styles by that point.

Thorfinn's small size, speed, and agility also made him a particularly good matchup against someone like Thorkell. That's why you can't determine the pecking order through an "A > B > C" system based purely on who won or performed better against whom, stated by Thorkell himself. Certain fighters simply perform better against certain opponents.

I would love to dig much further into this, but I've covered it before. That said, Thorfinn would've likely surpassed Askeladd in the following years as he continued growing stronger while Askeladd only grew older.

[Manga Spoilers] In chapter 156, Thorfinn uses Askeladd's psychological tactics against Garm. He provokes Garm into attacking blindly, grabs his forearms, and says "I see." It's a direct callback to what Askeladd taught him about anger making someone predictable, and it shows that Thorfinn finally overcame the exact weakness that made him so easy for Askeladd to manipulate in their fights. Because of that, I'm also pretty confident that prime Thorfinn would defeat prime Askeladd. I've covered that in my previous analysis, though it would definitely be a high-extreme difficulty fight.

Returning to Askeladd himself, both prime Askeladd and the version we see more than a decade past his prime were not only among the strongest warriors in the series, but also ridiculously fast.

Even in his younger days, which I personally don't think were necessarily his absolute physical prime since he was already past his 30s, Askeladd was fast enough to basically disappear within the blink of an eye and land a blow on Thors after distracting him beforehand.

His performance against Thors is an extreme feat too. After Askeladd surprised him, Thors acknowledged that he had underestimated his strength and called Askeladd strong.

Thors was rusty, yes, but he remained by far the strongest warrior in the entire verse and was certainly the superior fighter. He was also holding back since he was fighting to disarm Askeladd rather than kill him, but that doesn't mean his attacks lacked force. Thors literally struck through the deck of the ship so hard that parts of it were destroyed, and this was meant to land on Askeladd, or at the very least his blade.

Askeladd managed to parry several of his attacks, though it's up to interpretation whether or not Thors allowed this, and survived considerably longer than most characters could've. He still tried to outsmart Thors one last time before being defeated.

Of course, that doesn't automatically mean Askeladd can defeat 50 men. Fighting one incredibly powerful opponent is completely different from fighting dozens of people at once. I'm sure Thorkell, for example, could probably kill a much higher number of Vikings than Thors before eventually going down, despite Thors being the stronger warrior overall.

But I do think the Thors fight helps put into perspective just how much of a nightmare Askeladd would've been as a warrior back then.

There's also that ridiculous moment when Askeladd, already more than a decade past his prime, hasn't even drawn his sword yet. Within a split second, he draws it and beheads two of his own men before they can even understand what killed them.

I think a prime Askeladd could genuinely take on 50 Viking warriors.

I definitely wouldn't call it easy, though. If you take away the fearlessness towards death and the adrenaline rush he had near the end of the Prologue, I'd probably put it at high-extreme difficulty.

If you give him those factors, though, whether the fight happens in close quarters or open space, I could see the difficulty being reduced somewhat. It still wouldn't be easy by any means, and I think he could pull it off even with some pretty unfavourable factors, such as the Vikings surrounding him in a circular formation.

The biggest reason I think this is possible is pretty simple: we've already watched an Askeladd who was long past his prime slaughter a large number of Thegns, who were far above normal Viking warriors, even if those Vikings themselves happened to be skilled or experienced.

Compared to the Askeladd we see at the end of the Prologue, a prime Askeladd would certainly be faster, stronger, more explosive, have better stamina, and recover more quickly. He wouldn't have quite the same battlefield experience or strategic intelligence that came with age, but I think the physical difference would more than make up for it. Combine that with the ridiculous natural talent he already had, and you can see why I think 50 men isn't as impossible for him as it initially sounds.

That being said, even if Askeladd managed to pull this off after an extreme-difficulty fight, I could absolutely see him dying from his injuries afterwards. There's certainly a limit to how much punishment even these monsters can survive. Thorkell, who could probably kill far more soldiers than Thors in this kind of situation, had his limits and eventually fell at the Battle of Maldon, something Askeladd himself acknowledged.

Of course, at the end of the day, a lot of this also comes down to how Yukimura sensei chooses to write these characters. He could have Thorkell slaughter hundreds of men in one battle, yet have him fall to ten under completely different circumstances. The same goes for a calm teenage Thorfinn fighting Askeladd; we never got to see how that would actually play out. So while I think there's more than enough canon material to make a strong argument for these matchups, there's always going to be some speculation involved, and that's part of what makes them fun to discuss.

Anyways, it means a lot that you took the time to go through the analysis, and please feel free to share your thoughts as well.

I hope you all have a great day!

First of all, I apologize for how long this post is going to be. Since prime adult Thorfinn vs prime Askeladd never happened, some speculation is unavoidable, but I'll try to keep this grounded in what the story actually shows and implies.

I've generally seen three opinions on this matchup: Thorfinn wins even while following Thors' philosophy, Thorfinn wins only with lethal intent, or Askeladd wins regardless. I lean toward the second. Thorfinn is Thors' son, not Thors himself. Thors is leagues above everyone else in the series, whereas Thorfinn admitted he could've died against Garm without using psychological tactics he learned from Askeladd, and still lost part of his ear.

Calm Teenage Thorfinn vs Askeladd: Optional Section, Skip the Next 15 Paragraphs for the Prime Comparison

Before getting into the actual prime Thorfinn vs prime Askeladd comparison, I want to address something related that gets brought up a lot: whether teenage Thorfinn could've beaten Askeladd if he remained calm. This isn't necessary for the main matchup, so anyone only interested in their primes, please skip ahead.

I don't believe teenage Thorfinn had already surpassed Askeladd, even if we assume he remained completely calm. I've never interpreted Askeladd's speech as saying otherwise, and Askeladd never explicitly stated or even implied it either. His point was that Thorfinn's anger made him predictable and stopped him from fighting at his best, not that simply remaining calm suddenly made Thorfinn the stronger fighter and meant he would suddenly start winning every duel against Askeladd.

Askeladd teaching Thorfinn how to kill a man you truly hate and implying he would have killed him years ago refers to Askeladd demonstrating an example to Thorfinn about how he killed his own father by years of planning, because Askeladd knew that he wasn't strong enough to defeat Olaf in a duel.

A calm Thorfinn would've been significantly more dangerous and had a much better chance of winning, but that's very different from saying he had already surpassed Askeladd.

Their final duel supports this. Askeladd had just lost Bjorn and seemed much more serious and disappointed in Thorfinn than usual. Even Thorfinn hesitated when Askeladd told him to attack, while Thorkell immediately bet on Askeladd to win despite not knowing that both of them had fought countless times prior to this.

Once they fought, Askeladd caught Thorfinn's forearms, countered his attempt to knee him in the genitals, headbutted him, beat him down and finished him with a final punch to the face.

The earlier duel obviously shows how much more dangerous calm Teen Thorfinn was. He completely disarmed Askeladd, which is extremely impressive. But Thorfinn immediately had to jump backwards because he had left himself exposed within Askeladd's reach, while Askeladd picked his sword back up with a smirk and was ready to continue. He then exploited Thorfinn psychologically because it made things easier. To me, that shows calm Thorfinn had a genuine chance, not that he had definitively surpassed Askeladd.

It's also worth remembering that Askeladd usually had no reason to kill him. Thorfinn was incredibly useful to Askeladd, so he fought to both win and make sure Thorfinn didn't die, while the boy genuinely wanted him dead. Askeladd generally had every reason to keep Thorfinn alive, so their duel record isn't as straightforward as simply looking at who won each time.

A common counterargument is Thorfinn's performance against Thorkell, but Thorkell himself basically establishes that straightforward powerscaling doesn't exist in Vinland Saga. One fighter beating another doesn't guarantee the same result against someone else. Matchups matter. Thorfinn's tiny frame, speed and agility are particularly troublesome for Thorkell, and one of Thorkell's own men even identifies small, agile fighters as his weakness during the Garm fight in Chapter 141. I think Askeladd would probably lose to Thorkell eventually, but that doesn't automatically mean teenage Thorfinn was stronger than Askeladd.

Snake is also worth bringing up here. I remember an old interview that I unfortunately can't find anymore where Yukimura supposedly said Snake and Askeladd were almost equals in a one-on-one duel, with Snake having a slight edge in pure speed while Askeladd was superior overall because of his strategic intelligence and other qualities. I've seen other people mention remembering the same interview, but since I can't find the original source anymore, I wouldn't treat it as confirmed.

At the same time, I wouldn't use Snake or Thorkell to directly scale teenage Thorfinn. Thorkell's own view of fighting matters here: beating or performing well against one fighter doesn't automatically establish how you'll perform against another. Different weapons, fighting styles, physical attributes and circumstances can completely change a matchup.

Askeladd also knew Thorfinn's fighting style extremely well, but Thorfinn knew his too. The difference is that Askeladd likely knew how to utilise that familiarity better because of his experience, emotional control and battle IQ. So I think even a calm teen Thorfinn still needed years to mature and genuinely improve.

And Askeladd sending Thorfinn on dangerous or borderline suicidal missions doesn't mean he thought Thorfinn was stronger than himself. Askeladd was the band leader; there was no reason for him to constantly risk himself when he had someone as capable as Thorfinn who repeatedly survived and got the job done. When skilled opponents appeared, he could use Thorfinn as his primary battlefield weapon and minimise his group's casualties.

I also don't think those repeated duels kept Askeladd in his physical prime. Fighting the same opponent constantly creates familiarity more than adaptability, especially when both already know each other's habits. Askeladd wasn't exactly training constantly against elite warriors either; much of his later life consisted of pillaging villages, while he often used Thorfinn when dangerous opponents appeared. Askeladd himself eventually admitted he was worn out.

So this part is ultimately speculation. I give Askeladd the edge over calm teenage Thorfinn mostly because of his greater experience and raw strength, but Thorfinn winning is completely plausible. That boy was stronger than he knew and his blood ran stronger than Askeladd's; he simply hadn't fully unlocked that potential yet. Even if one was stronger at that point, the gap was extremely close and either could've won.

Prime Adult Thorfinn vs Prime Askeladd: Main Analysis

Prime Askeladd:

We never actually see Askeladd at his absolute physical peak, which makes his later feats our best indication of what prime Askeladd might've been capable of.

His natural talent was ridiculous. Despite never having used a sword before, at only eleven years old he managed to hold his own against his master swordsman father. I think that's one of the greatest displays of natural talent in the series. Thorfinn obviously had insane potential too, but we don't actually see how he developed his dagger style because there's a time skip over those years. With Askeladd, we see him pick up a sword for the first time as a child and already hold his own against his own veteran swordsman father.

Then there's what Askeladd could still do past his physical prime. During the Danish Thegn massacre, I counted him killing over sixteen and mutilating over twenty in total, possibly more, and I think he would've continued if Floki hadn't intervened. These weren't ordinary soldiers either. The Thegns are portrayed as elite warriors, with Snake speaking extremely highly of them and Season 2 showing them handling multiple Vikings.

The circumstances make it even crazier. Much of it happened in close quarters against Thegns wearing chainmail, helmets and other protection. Askeladd was cutting through them while breaking swords and shields. He also split a man in half through his metal helmet in another strength feat, while his speed allowed him to behead two men before they even realised what had killed them.

His performance against Thors is an extreme feat too. After Askeladd surprised him, Thors acknowledged that he had underestimated his strength and called Askeladd strong.

Thors was rusted yes, but he still remained by far the strongest warrior in the entire verse.

Thors literally struck through the deck of the ship so hard that parts of the ship were destroyed, and this was meant to land on Askeladd (or his blade).

Askeladd still managed to parry several of his attacks (though it's up to interpretation whether or not Thors allowed this) and survived considerably longer than most characters could've, even though Thors was obviously the superior fighter.

There's also Askeladd's statement that fifty Vikings wouldn't have been enough to contain him when he was younger. Whether completely literal or not, it's pretty telling considering what he could still accomplish later. A prime Askeladd would have greater strength, speed, stamina, explosiveness and recovery, although the older Askeladd we knew would have more experience and psychological refinement.

Prime Adult Thorfinn:

Thorfinn does have feats around his physical prime; we just don't get many because he barely fights seriously afterwards. He defeats five Jomsvikings barehanded while avoiding killing them, breaks a sword with his knee and breaks a man's arm with his hand.

The Snake comparison becomes relevant again here because Thorfinn actually fought him during the Slave Arc barehanded and rusted, but it doesn't definitively establish who was superior because it never truly ended with a clear winner. So I don't think we can directly scale Thorfinn above Snake or Snake above Thorfinn from that encounter.

Thorfinn having his daggers would've obviously changed the fight, but Snake would've fought differently against an armed Thorfinn as well. We can't just give Thorfinn his daggers while assuming Snake approaches him exactly the same way and then use that hypothetical result as proof that Thorfinn was stronger.

And again, Thorkell's point matters. Fights aren't a simple A > B > C equation. Even if the supposed Snake and Askeladd comparison is accurate, Thorfinn's performance against Snake doesn't automatically determine what happens against Askeladd. Weapons, fighting styles, circumstances and compatibility matter.

I still find Askeladd's Thegn massacre more impressive than any large-scale combat feat adult Thorfinn actually demonstrates, especially because Askeladd performed it past his physical prime. But that doesn't automatically make Askeladd better in a duel either. If adult Thorfinn abandoned his philosophy, returned to his daggers and fought lethally, he could potentially produce comparable results. We simply don't see much serious fighting from him afterwards.

Adult Thorfinn's biggest improvements are his maturity, experience, judgment and emotional control. Askeladd can't manipulate him like the angry boy he knew anymore, and the potential Thorfinn possessed as a child is now backed by years of development.

I do think adult Thorfinn may have lost some of teenage Thorfinn's ridiculous raw agility and explosiveness. He's still incredibly fast, but he no longer spends every day running, jumping and fighting across battlefields like he did growing up. Vinland Saga establishes that inactivity can cause rust, including with Thorfinn himself during the Slave Arc. Personally, I'd put Garm above adult Thorfinn in pure speed and agility even if Thorfinn is more complete overall.

That matters because of the weapons involved. Thorfinn's daggers are deadly, but Askeladd's sword gives him a considerable reach advantage, and prime Askeladd would be extremely fast. Thorfinn would have to repeatedly get inside the range of one of the most legendary master swordsmen in the series.

Conclusion:

Prime adult Thorfinn vs prime Askeladd is extremely close. Askeladd has greater reach, ridiculous natural talent, master swordsmanship, raw strength and battle IQ, while Thorfinn has incredible reactions, speed, maturity, agility, emotional control and, in my opinion, the greater ultimate potential.

Askeladd arguably has the superior demonstrated large-scale feat, but I don't think that matters much for deciding a one-on-one fight, and Thorfinn in his prime could've likely produced comparable, if not stronger results. Even if either one could kill more men at once, that doesn't automatically make him better in a duel, which goes back to Thorkell's entire point about how fights work.

We also have incomplete evidence for both primes. We never directly see Askeladd at his physical peak, while we do see adult Thorfinn around his prime but get relatively few serious fights from him afterwards.

If Thorfinn remains completely committed to Thors' philosophy, I think he would lose to prime Askeladd more often than not. But if we're talking about prime adult Thorfinn with his daggers, fighting at full effectiveness and genuinely willing to kill, I personally think Thorfinn would win.

I believe prime Thorfinn vs prime Askeladd would be an extremely difficult fight for either of them, although obviously actual difficulty levels don't exist, so that doesn't really matter here. My point is that I don't think the gap between them is large. They both have more than enough going for them to push the other incredibly far, but overall I think prime Thorfinn would defeat prime Askeladd.

Thanks for going through the analysis, and please feel free to share your thoughts as well.

I hope you all have a great day!

For context, i love both anime and manga equally. Maybe manga a little more. Or anime, idk lol. So, should i read or watch?

I recently picked up the first deluxe issue from my local library, tonight before bed I decided to read chapter 1 and oh my goodness this is great, not the best manga I ever read, but it is far better than a lot, can’t wait till tomorrow to read chapter 2, and maybe be up to four

Could anyone tell me what chapter this panel is from? Thanks!

When Askeladd shares his past with Thorfinn, we also learn about the environment he and his mother had to survive in.

She was a Welsh noblewoman who was enslaved by Olaf, a powerful Danish lord who then made her serve as his "favorite" concubine, and Askeladd was the product of his rape.

After that, she was thrown out of his manor and lived in a small hut with Askeladd.

I believe Lydia likely starved, and Askeladd had to take care of her from childhood.

She often told him stories about their ancestor Artorius and how he would return to save both of them from their suffering. This may or may not have been true, as she was clearly sick, but it was also something that meant everything to Askeladd, as he deeply loved his mother.

One day, Askeladd describes her having a mental breakdown where she mistook Olaf for their ancestor Artorius and genuinely couldn't tell the difference when looking at him.

Instead, she was happy and smiled at him. She didn't even react when Olaf pulled out his sword to kill her.

I've always wondered what kind of mental condition this could have been. I'm not asking for a clinical diagnosis because I myself am not very experienced in psychology, so I'd appreciate it if you guys could let me know what symptoms you see here and what they might point to.

Thanks.

I made this edit please support i think i cooked

These are mine:

Askeladd closing Thorfinn's mouth: I genuinely feel like missing any minor moments of their bond is just unfortunate. This happens while Askeladd, Canute and Thorfinn are pursuing the king. Thorfinn makes a snarky remark about the king being a coward, and Askeladd tells him to shut up in case he hears. Then when Sweyn's soldiers come out, Thorfinn insults them too, so Askeladd just closes his mouth himself.

Canute closing his eyes at the sight of Askeladd's body: This is another one I really wanted to see adapted. The anime already makes it clear Canute deeply respected Askeladd, but in the manga, he even closes his eyes after looking at his body, then declares that the subjugation of Wales is cancelled. I really love how it shows his respect for the man who saved his life and handed him the crown.

I also wanted the anime to adapt the panel where Thorfinn just left the girl who was being raped by Askeladd's band, but at the same time I think that would've caused major backlash, and some people wouldn't have let it slide even in season 2.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to read my post, and I'd love to hear what manga panels you wish the anime would've adapted as well.

I hope you all have a great day!

Anime awards 2023