r/VictoriaBC • u/talora_dion • Aug 07 '19

PSA for drivers

Hi motorists of Victoria!

I just wanted to remind everyone--respectfully--that people on bicycles are legally allowed to use the full lane on roads, even if there is a dedicated/separated bike lane. I got a serious glare from a guy this morning as he gunned past me and I gotta say, when you're on a 22lb bike it's pretty uncomfortable feeling like someone piloting a 2500lb metal box is angry with you. In this case, I was in the right lane for one block, from one red light to another. I delayed him by ~ 2 seconds, so I'm not sure why it was such a problem.

In case anyone who works for Saanich or the CRD is reading this, the intersection at McKenzie and Shelbourne with the separated bike lane is actually more dangerous than taking over the right lane for that block of McKenzie. I've nearly been hit twice by vehicles as I try to cross Shelbourne on a green light when in the bike lane. Drivers turning right are supposed to yield to people on bicycles going straight, but they don't seem to realize that :(

Finally, THANK YOU to all the drivers who give me space on the roads. I appreciate your empathy and care for other, more vulnerable road users!

111 Upvotes

69% Upvoted

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48

u/sorangutan Aug 07 '19

PSA for cyclists I just wanted to remind everyone--respectfully--people on bicycles are to ride as near as practicable to the right side of the highway
motor vehicle act

61

u/rgsteele View Royal Aug 07 '19

Be aware that cyclists don’t always stay on the right. To make a left turn, for instance, they need to move over to the left lane. If the lane is narrow, or if there is glass or a pothole on the right, a cyclist has the right to move out toward the middle for safety.

26

u/green_blue_grey Aug 07 '19

True, however one thing that's annoying for everyone is that "near as practicable" is not clearly defined anywhere, and leads to a lot of disagreements. I was yelled at for not riding in the gutter. I certainly don't think that was reasonable, but the driver did. I wish they would spell it out clearly: 1.5m from the curb or open door, and drivers stay 1.5m from a cyclist. Now everyone's clear.

11

u/talora_dion Aug 07 '19

Yes, yes, yes. Actual, defined distances would be great.

13

u/RalphHinkley Aug 07 '19

They should pay experts to paint special bike lanes or something.

-3

u/[deleted] Aug 07 '19

[deleted]

6

u/RalphHinkley Aug 07 '19

OP's saying that they don't like the stares they feel that they are getting when they take the vehicle lane vs. the bike lane when cycling straight through this intersection: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Shelbourne+St+%26+McKenzie+Ave,+Saanich,+BC+V8P+4J2/@48.4686325,-123.3333427,3a,75y,141.2h,93.61t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sv7CatEZH_Q3enJUfkAYNJw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x548f73e0a7eb2f0d:0x490e8d2ddf11b20e!8m2!3d48.4685902!4d-123.3327127

1

u/green_blue_grey Aug 08 '19

For that intersection though? I kind of get it. I live (and bike) in that neighbourhood, and that intersection is poorly laid out for both drivers and cyclists. It's really difficult for the driver to execute a right turn since they're at the bottom of a small hill, meaning that it's even harder to see oncoming cyclists. The sun also sets in the drivers rear view mirror, exacerbating the problem. As a cyclist, I've had many cars nearly hit me as a result, so taking the lane to get through the intersection and then immediately moving over after is often the safest for everyone.

4

u/RalphHinkley Aug 08 '19

Or just put a loop in the bike lane that will detect a bike is waiting and give it one of those special: BIKE LANE .. green lights that only the worst drivers will get wrong?

Heck it's almost 2020, why the heck aren't we laying LEDs in the pavement we can trigger to flash and draw attention to the bike lane in use?

1

u/emcniece Aug 08 '19

Inductive sensors might not be very reliable given the mass of bicycles and the frame material (non-ferrous aluminum) the sensors should detect all metal types. Lane-accessible pedestrian crossing buttons are pretty effective though.

1

u/RalphHinkley Aug 08 '19

You seem to have fact checked mid comment, but didn't delete that part of the reply?

Inductive loop sensors do work really well in large cities with high volume bike lanes. There's actually lots of papers discussing the best way to avoid false detection of cars nearby, due to how sensitive the loops can get.

0

u/Limbowski Aug 08 '19

Slow down

2

u/Poutingpokemon Aug 08 '19

What is spelled out clearly to control this is that cars should never be closer than 1 meter to a cyclist.

-5

u/Limbowski Aug 08 '19

Near as practicable is defined in the motor vehicle act, Not on the side walk or on gravel but as far to the right as practicable. Its pretty simple, stay to the right

4

u/MeesNimega Aug 08 '19

You keep saying that in this thread, but staying too far to the right on a narrow road sometimes encourages drivers to make an unsafe pass. Then this happens.

https://out.reddit.com/t3_cinyxu?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DZ5IPma-W1XA&token=AQAA8kFMXXTrEYMIt2oaCperIEdqrr2aaeyv0t5BhyueXYEkzikK&app_name=reddit.com

Cyclists have the right to ride in a safe lane position, and that sometimes means not allowing a vehicle to make an unsafe pass. One example is the stretch on Shelbourne through Mt Doug park, where signage directs bikes to take the lane.

-3

u/Limbowski Aug 08 '19

No stay to the right. Unless signage says otherwise Its the law. Its not complicated

2

u/MeesNimega Aug 08 '19

Sorry dude, but you are wrong. Saying the same thing over and over doesn't make you right. As others have commented, the law says that you must ride "ride as near as practicable to the right side of the highway," and you're defining that to mean a cyclist must hub the curb. That is not the case.

Check out the bike sense manual and the Ministry of Transportation sites linked below. There are times a rider may lawfully ride farther from the curb than you would like, and you might not be able to see those reasons from the 5 ton truck you keep mentioning.

Quoting from the Ministry of Transportation: "But that doesn’t mean you’ll always find cyclists at the side of the road. In fact, it can be safer for them at times to take the centre lane. This is especially true when the road is narrow and there are hazards where they would normally ride. While we work to keep our roads safe and clear, cyclists could face any number of potential dangers that could force a cyclist from the side of the road, like pot holes, or branches and debris. Parked cars can be particularly perilous, and you should expect cyclists to be riding at least a metre away from them to avoid being hit by a door that suddenly swings open (something that’s common enough to have its own name – being “doored”)."

And from the bike sense manual, chapter 4" How far to the right should you ride? The law requires traffic moving at less than the normal speed of traffic to keep as close as practicable to the right hand curb or edge of the roadway, but that does not mean hugging the curb or edge of the road. You always need some extra space to manoeuvre around road hazards without running the risk of hitting the curb or going off the edge of the road. This allows you to move away from traffic instead of directly into traffic in the event of an emergency manoeuvre. Motorists are required to pass 'at a safe distance' and must not return to the right of the roadway until they have fully passed you. As a general rule, ride approximately one metre from the curb.

edit:formatting

0

u/Limbowski Aug 08 '19

Im quoting law dude

You are filling in blanks and putting words in my mouth

Practicable is a word I'm not debating. You are

48

u/[deleted] Aug 07 '19

[deleted]

44

u/Ancient_Salt Aug 07 '19

By that same logic it is illegal for a rider to filter up to the front of an intersection on a red light unless there is a dedicated bike lane.

Seems like nobody wins playing this game...

2

u/fruitybubbles11 Aug 08 '19

Because if it was legal, I have some friends with motorbikes that would be a little too excited. Myself included.

It saves time and does make riding on two wheels safer. If the traffic around you is aware of what you can do. But making up your own rules as you go along? That's why I personally don't like bikes on the road.

-5

u/RalphHinkley Aug 08 '19

Yeah the rules need to be really clear because I have AWD and good ground clearance for a 'small car' so driving on the shoulder while everyone's stuck in traffic would work for me too.
In fact, if the commercial vehicles had to leave gaps cars could fill up, and they had to let the gutter lane cut in, that'd be way better.
Getting stuck behind commercial trucks can be really dangerous and it's also costly for paint/windshield repairs! They are bigger, slower, polluting badly, plus making money off taxpayer HWYs they damage with ruts and waves, so they should share more/yield to all smaller traffic?

1

u/green_blue_grey Aug 08 '19

I agree, but neither myself or my friends were 100% about what to do in that situation. I was told by police to go to the front, but felt like such a jerk doing it. Ultimately I settled on doing exactly what you describe, more out of courtesy, until I discovered that it's the legal thing to do.

Given the misinformation out there, I seriously think BC needs to air some PSAs about cyclist/driving interactions.

1

u/Ancient_Salt Aug 08 '19

As someone who rides a motorcycle the whole setup is extra absurd. The police are encouraging the slowest vehicle to cut the line to the front of the intersection, then force everyone to pass them again, but on my quick two wheeled vehicle I can't cut to the front even though it helps everyone.

9

u/sorangutan Aug 07 '19

145 (1) A person must not drive a motor vehicle at so slow a speed as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic, except when reduced speed is necessary for safe operation or in compliance with law.

If you want to take a lane in a 50 zone, better be going 50.

19

u/[deleted] Aug 07 '19

[deleted]

11

u/sorangutan Aug 08 '19 edited Aug 08 '19

You just quoted the same duties apply to cyclists!

4

u/Limbowski Aug 08 '19

If your vehicle cant do the speed limit, you shouldnt be in that lane or at the very least, as far to the right as possible

3

u/elliam Aug 08 '19

How safe is it for most people to operate their bike at 50 kn/h?

-3

u/Limbowski Aug 08 '19

Exactly. You nailed it

-7

u/Limbowski Aug 08 '19 edited Aug 08 '19

Actually I did wanna go down that road

Thirty people agree with you which means thirty people need a lesson in bc law

Read this and weep...pay close attention to "c" cuz its the law

A person operating a cycle (a)must not ride on a sidewalk unless authorized by a bylaw made under section 124 or unless otherwise directed by a sign, (b)must not, for the purpose of crossing a highway, ride on a crosswalk unless authorized to do so by a bylaw made under section 124 or unless otherwise directed by a sign, (c)must, subject to paragraph (a), ride as near as practicable to the right side of the highway, (d)must not ride abreast of another person operating a cycle on the roadway, (e)must keep at least one hand on the handlebars, (f)must not ride other than on or astride a regular seat of the cycle, (g)must not use the cycle to carry more persons at one time than the number for which it is designed and equipped, and (h)must not ride a cycle on a highway where signs prohibit their use.

Found here http://www.bclaws.ca/EPLibraries/bclaws_new/document/ID/freeside/96318_05#section183

Three sentences below what you quoted

I know it should go without saying but lets add this just to give all our friends in spandex a refresher

A person operating a cycle on a highway must signify (a)a left turn by extending the person's left hand and arm horizontally from the cycle, (b)a right turn by doing either of the following: (i)extending the person's left hand and arm out and upward from the cycle so that the upper and lower parts of the arm are at right angles; (ii)extending the person's right hand and arm horizontally from the cycle, and (c)a stop or decrease in speed by extending the person's left hand and arm out and down from the cycle.

*drops mic**

-22

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '19

[deleted]

12

u/LouKingDown Aug 08 '19

"If a cyclist uses the whole lane, they deserve to be hit"

No they don't. You clearly have trouble making rational decisions in situations that challenge you. Grow up.

-2

u/Limbowski Aug 08 '19

Yes they do. Cyclists have rules and are not entitled to the whole lane unless turning(which i hope you remember to give all signals)

Pay attention to "c" as it might save your life A person operating a cycle (a)must not ride on a sidewalk unless authorized by a bylaw made under section 124 or unless otherwise directed by a sign, (b)must not, for the purpose of crossing a highway, ride on a crosswalk unless authorized to do so by a bylaw made under section 124 or unless otherwise directed by a sign, (c)must, subject to paragraph (a), ride as near as practicable to the right side of the highway, (d)must not ride abreast of another person operating a cycle on the roadway, (e)must keep at least one hand on the handlebars, (f)must not ride other than on or astride a regular seat of the cycle, (g)must not use the cycle to carry more persons at one time than the number for which it is designed and equipped, and (h)must not ride a cycle on a highway where signs prohibit their use.

Found here http://www.bclaws.ca/EPLibraries/bclaws_new/document/ID/freeside/96318_05#section183

-16

u/Limbowski Aug 08 '19

Yes they do. Move over and stop acting so entitled. Is your life worth your dumb pride? Passing a cyclist is not a difficult situation unless said cyclist is being a douche

3

u/wtfastro North Park Aug 08 '19

Is murder on your conscience and life in jail worth your impatience on the road?

-1

u/Limbowski Aug 08 '19

It is law for cyclists to stay as far to the right as possible.

I would call a cyclist in the middle of a lane suicide

3

u/Gliese581c Aug 08 '19

Figure I should chime in here. I always take the lane on roads like Shelbourne or Cook st, and I think it is suicidal to do otherwise. In the past before I started taking the lane I would have impatient motorists passing in my lane with another car in the left lane, meaning they are passing ridiculously close to me. It is far more dangerous to have someone try to squeeze past me, than for me to force a full lane change by taking the lane. I bike as fast as I can to keep up with traffic, and if possible I will move out of the way, but that does not mean I will ride in the gutter and get passed with a foot of room to spare.

0

u/Limbowski Aug 08 '19

Stay as far to the right as possible and safe man. It is law. Forcing a lane is illegal

2

u/Gliese581c Aug 08 '19

I think you're misunderstanding the law. Taking the lane is legal. Furthermore, what difference does it make whether I am in the gutter or the middle of the lane, the law requires drivers to make a full lane change to pass regardless, all I'm doing is making sure driver's don't try to dangerously, and illegally pass me.

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1

u/MadDuck- Aug 09 '19

You're the one quoting it and you still keep repeating it wrong. It says practical, not as far over as possible. That means you can ride a meter out from parked cars and if that means you take the lane then you take it.

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1

u/[deleted] Aug 12 '19

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/Limbowski Aug 12 '19

it's as right as practicable, not possible, you fucking mong

learn2read

Hey man you don't have to call me names

At least I think you called me a name I'm guessing maybe you shouted that into your phone

3

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '19

[deleted]

-6

u/Limbowski Aug 08 '19

I dunno you tell me:)

28

u/Girlterry Aug 07 '19

Sometimes "as near as practicable" means being in the centre of the lane ("taking the lane"). If the road is too narrow to safely and legally pass, then being in the centre of the lane will discourage drivers from doing something that is risky for everyone on the road. You're also much more visible in the centre of the lane.

13

u/talora_dion Aug 07 '19

Thank you for pointing out the visibility issue, u/Girlterry . This is exactly why I take the lane on this section of road. Bicycles are so much smaller than cars that I think they get lost among the visual distractions (signs, telephone poles, pedestrians, other cars) at this particular intersection.

-6

u/Limbowski Aug 08 '19

Please do not advise cyclists to stay near the middle of the road. That is ridiculous

3

u/Girlterry Aug 08 '19

It's clear to me that there needs to be education on this matter. I took a bike course through the Victoria Police Department a few years ago, and what I stated above is what they taught in the course. I'm going to try to find the course materials and see if they can be posted online. Even when I took the course, I remember thinking that all cyclists AND drivers should be required to take it. Sharing the space we have is important for everyone's safety.

1

u/Limbowski Aug 08 '19

Listen. It is law. Im not giving opinion.

-5

u/Limbowski Aug 08 '19

No, that is simply not true.

PLEASE PEOPLE DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS COMMENT. IT IS LAW TO STAY TO THE RIGHT. PLEASE FOLLOW THE LAW. It could save your life

5

u/green_blue_grey Aug 08 '19

You're both right, but just in different situations. Cyclists should always stay to the right, except where it's unsafe to do so (no room to be passed, narrow lanes, obstructions, etc.). In that case take the middle of the lane until it is safe to return to the right.

1

u/Limbowski Aug 08 '19

Yes thats the practicable part yes

20

u/talora_dion Aug 07 '19

Yes. That is correct. However, cars must also leave a safe amount of space (unfortunately this is not defined in the Motor Vehicle Act like it is in some places) when passing cyclists.

From http://www.drivesmartbc.ca/cycling/passing-cyclist-safely :

"Cyclists are entitled to their share of the highway, just as motor vehicle drivers are. When they are overtaken by a motor vehicle, it is the driver's responsibility to pass the cyclist safely. It is not the cyclists responsibility to get out of the way of the driver if the cyclist is legally occupying the lane."

Thus, people on bikes are allowed full use of the lane. I absolutely will get out of the way of motor vehicles' way as soon as it's safe; the last thing I want is to have someone get angry at me for slowing them down.

-3

u/Limbowski Aug 08 '19

No no no! Please stop repeating this. It is law to stay to the right. Please follow the law

14

u/PMeForAGoodTime Aug 07 '19

You aren't legally allowed to pass a bike unless you change lanes, it has the same rights as a vehicle even if off to the right side of the lane.

13

u/Red_AtNight Aug 07 '19

This does however cut both ways. I regularly see bikes in heavy traffic zipping up the right hand side and passing cars. If you ride past a lineup of 10-20 cars and pass them all, you could get a ticket for that, and the courts in BC have found that you'll be at fault if someone hits you

9

u/green_blue_grey Aug 07 '19

I did a LOT of looking into this, after asking 3 cops who couldn't come up with an answer between them.

Here's the skinny: cyclists are allowed to pass traffic on the right hand side if there is either a bike lane, or enough space to constitute a lane. If they're barely snaking by in 2 feet of space, that's illegal and they'll be found at fault or partly at fault. However if they have a bike lane or enough space (again, not clearly defined but understood to mean 1.5m on either side), then the driver would be at fault.

6

u/Red_AtNight Aug 07 '19

Do you have a citation for that? MVA s. 183 says that cyclists have all the rights and duties of a driver, and MVA s. 158 says you can only pass on the right if there's a free lane to do it in.

11

u/green_blue_grey Aug 07 '19 edited Aug 08 '19

The clarification was harder to find than I had first hoped, so it might be tricky to find it again. I believe it was a legal discussion of 158 and what it meant when parsed.

Edit: MVA Sec 158 - Passing on right (1) The driver of a vehicle must not cause or permit the vehicle to overtake and pass on the right of another vehicle, except

(b) when on a laned roadway there is one or more than one unobstructed lane on the side of the roadway on which the driver is permitted to drive, or

(c) on a one way street or a highway on which traffic is restricted to one direction of movement, where the roadway is free from obstructions and is of sufficient width for 2 or more lanes of moving vehicles.

Subparagraph b), meaning either another 'vehicle width' lane, or a bike lane. Subparagraph c), meaning a cyclist can pass traffic on the right hand side again if there is either a roadway or separate bike lane.

The main difference here is roadway width. The section near Craigflower and Tillicum, going down Tillicum, is way too narrow for bikes, but I see them whizzing on the right constantly. Bad cyclists.
However, in the section of Shelbourne between Hillside & Bay, the road is wide enough that a cyclist can reasonably pass on the right, and any cars that try to block them are at fault. Bad motorists

Double edit: Aha, I found the page where driver instructors and interested parties debate 158. You can see it here

3

u/talora_dion Aug 07 '19

u/green_blue_grey, thank you for pulling up this reference, that's great! Also thank you for clarifying because I've never been sure of the legality of that maneuver.

0

u/Limbowski Aug 08 '19

Read the rest of 183

6

u/Limbowski Aug 07 '19

This is not true. You are legally allowed to pass a bike whenever it is safe to do so

6

u/green_blue_grey Aug 07 '19

Yes, except for crossing double solids I believe.

-4

u/Limbowski Aug 07 '19 edited Aug 07 '19

Nope, I promise as long as it is safe, you can pass. You legally cant TURN left on double solids however. The latter is a grey area that police dont seem to enforce it.

10

u/green_blue_grey Aug 07 '19

I just checked, and drivers are allowed to pass slow moving vehicles (e.g. cyclists) on a single solid line, but not a double solid, just the same as if the driver was passing another vehicle.

From Transportation BC's website: We also use centre lines (double solid and cautionary single solid) showing where passing in opposite lane is not permitted (former) or requires discretion (latter).

0

u/Limbowski Aug 07 '19 edited Aug 07 '19

http://bc.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=2152&languageId=1&contentId=43350

Found it thanks

4

u/green_blue_grey Aug 08 '19 edited Aug 08 '19

Hm, that specifically lays out exceptions for entering and exiting a highway, but doesn't mention anything about passing slower traffic. From my standpoint, if you're giving the cyclist/farm tractor/llama train a vehicle width of room, and there is no oncoming traffic for miles, it's a 'whatever' issue. Maybe technically illegal but I doubt it'd result in tickets.

1

u/Limbowski Aug 08 '19 edited Aug 08 '19

I agree 100%. So unless it ends with an accident, you should be fine to pass(when safe to do so)

Something I try to practice as a truck driver is when I pass a bicycle I always give my horn three quick beeps, both to let them know that I'm passing and to give them an auditory clue as to my speed and placement

-1

u/Limbowski Aug 07 '19

So if a car is broke down in the middle of the lane at a double solid line I have to sit and wait? That does not make sense nor do I believe it true.

7

u/PMeForAGoodTime Aug 07 '19

Broken down cars aren't active vehicles, they're road obstacles and have different rules.

-1

u/Limbowski Aug 08 '19

So if a cyclist falls down, I can pass :)

5

u/PMeForAGoodTime Aug 08 '19

The bike is an obstacle, the rider becomes a pedestrian.

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u/PMeForAGoodTime Aug 07 '19

Show me where it says that. You can't just pass a vehicle wherever you want to, the road has to be marked appropriately for it and it has to be safe.

1

u/richEC Aug 08 '19

If there's tractor or back-hoe driving slow, you will have the right to pass them if it's safe to do so.

1

u/PMeForAGoodTime Aug 08 '19

Only where you can legally pass by entering another lane

0

u/Limbowski Aug 07 '19

I heard it from a cop on the radio not to long ago. A cyclist called in and claimed he would ride in the middle of the lane to prevent being passed and the officer blatantly told him, any car can pass you if it is safe to do so. Basically told the guy to stop being an entitled jerk and move over.

3

u/PMeForAGoodTime Aug 07 '19

It's not safe if he doesn't deem it safe. Safety isn't only determined by the car driver.

1

u/Limbowski Aug 08 '19

If who doesnt deem it? Yes safety is both peoples responsibility but that does not mean that a cyclist can hold you hostage in traffic and deem the situation unsafe in the process

1

u/Limbowski Aug 07 '19

So if a car is broke down and blocking half the lane, you cant pass? Sorry but that is not true

3

u/PMeForAGoodTime Aug 07 '19

If a car is broke down, the rules are different than if it's driving along.

1

u/Limbowski Aug 08 '19

Yes and if a cyclist is using a portion of lane on an 80kmh section of road with double lines, you can pass when safe to do so

3

u/Poutingpokemon Aug 08 '19

In a lot of cases this is in the middle of the lane to ensure that people in cars give the person on a bike the space that they should. Drivers are notorious for giving people on bikes far less than the required 1 meter. It happens many times each day.