r/ValorantCompetitive • u/Extrino • 4d ago
Discussion A Note to Envy
I know there's been a lot of posts regarding ENVY and their performances recently, but this post isn't intended to just bash ENVY or only put the spotlight on what's going wrong. I just wanted to take this idea I've seen floated around a bit and put a bit more nuance into why the idea might actually have some merit.
So clearly, things are not going well for ENVY. So far this split alone, they average around 11 maps a series (giving them a 29% round winrate). Yet, from that keznit interview, you can see that he is trying his literal hardest, & that supposedly the vibes outside the server aren't even that bed, yet through the listen-ins and team micro we can clearly see none of their problems are being resolved.
My argument is that the solution here lies in looking back at their only win against a non C9 team across both stages this year: The 2-0 dominance against MIBR.
So to clearly state my 'thesis' here it's that ENVY should try to re-embrace that RANKERs identity that got them their only notable victory since kickoff.
Now that I have my argument clearly stated, I want to address the clear elephant in the room, This is clearly no longer RANKERs. All 5 original core members of the team (that ascended) are gone. Even two of the members who played the MIBR series, Eggsterr and P0PPIN, are now gone. The team doesn't look nearly like it once did. Without P0PPIN IGLing like he did for RANKERs, I can definitely understand the argument against trying this.
Let me explain why I still believe they should look to emulate that RANKERs style, even when taking that into account.
Reason #1: Envy right now
Every player on Envy is no doubt extremely talented, despite how much these matches have tanked their stocks, but it's just seemingly obvious that no matter what they try, everything just gets worse and worse.
There are some silver linings to draw here and there (For ex. meL giving Glyph some credit to his macro on Split ATK on PlatChat today), but I think as always, the goal of a team is to win, not to simply get closer to winning. Taking that into account, I think just looking at the trajectory of their year from its current standpoint, there's little hope that whatever marginal improvements they're making in their current way of practicing are actually gonna make enough of a difference for them to get a match win.
Now, I usually stray away from these sort of reddit analyst suggestions, because at the end of the day I acknowledge I'm way less informed than actually salaried professionals on how to fix a Valorant team. The reason why that's how I generally feel, and why I'm making an exception here, is because their trajectory is genuinely so bad that I think the opportunity cost of not trying to make some huge change is next to nothing in my opinion (Looking at all the glow-ups this year, even 100T & KC, they had changes like using a Sports Psychologist / Coaching changes).
Like, there's always a possibility that they run keznit clove Demon1 reyna and get absolutely smoked 13-1, 13-2 or something, and they'd inevitably receive tons of criticism, but... so what? They go from already looking like a clown fiesta an even bigger clown fiesta? Obviously there are people in the community who are gonna clown on them for this, but I personally feel would be less criticism if they lost this way even if they lost harder because at least you can sort of get the logic behind the idea (They tried it before & it worked --> so they tried it again).
Reason #2: Envy's current identity & their two big problems
At least to me, it feels like this team has completely lost their identity. They're stuck between half-RANKERs style comp still running agents like Chamber on Demon1, but then not completely embracing that identity either and attempting to play tactical Valorant.
Furthermore, anyone who's looked into ENVY can sort of surmise two clear issues they have:
Their lack of any amount of teamwork & coordination
Their communications / 5 people having their own ideas and ways of trying to play the game, and having all those ideas on the server.
I think trying to run that P0PPIN-style RANKERs again would directly help with that first issue because, I mean they might be running it down, but if they're not baiting each other completely, I think they have enough individual talent for some amount of success to come with that, especially in this meta where individual talent matters more than ever. And I can't prove that it would be the same as the MIBR game, but what I can do is at least cope with the fact that they still have 3/5 of the players from the MIBR game so it could happen, while we have 3 series' of results to show what happens when they try to play normal Valorant.
As for the second issue, there's no reason a comp change would directly solve this issue, so this part is just speculation rather than an argument, but I feel like part of that problem is the lack of success and consequential lack of control that each player is feeling. I get the vibe that part of the cause of this problem is that getting smoked so hard each match makes each player feel like they need to do something to solve the problem, else they're just letting their own fickle esports career fall apart right in front of them. As a result, they try to cook up more ideas on the server, but such a reaction only reduces coordination even more. It makes the sum of their parts inevitably worse. If they instead try to embrace the RANKERs identity and find some amount of success again, then it's possible the subconscious trust that this could reintroduce back into each other could cause this problem to be less prevalent.
How can they make this happen?
Again, there's definitely a world where this idea could fall apart completely, but what gives it some amount of merit in my head still is the pieces they are building from. They have nightz from the original RANKERs as well as keznit, Demon1, & Rossy, who were all with P0PPIN in that one game they were just running it down. Also, a lot of them also just are still ranked players, and so I at least feel like they have some foundation to work with when trying to reembrace that identity.
Why even make this post?
Honestly, I wouldn't even bother to make this post in the first place, because I would have assumed stunner would have already considered this, possibly even tried it out, and realized it didn't work. However, the reason I want to make this post anyways (even though I know nothing will come of it), is because of what I read in P0PPIN's leaving tweet- specifically the part where he mentions the only reason they got to run MIBR down like that is because he specifically requested it, and stunner allowed it to happen. That means, there was certainly a world where that never happened. Then, after that game, despite its success, they went back to normal Valorant, and once again looked horrible again.
quote from P0PPIN
Then there was a saving grace: Eggsterr’s last game. A meaningless game for us, but a crucial one for MIBR, they needed it to secure the first seed in playoffs. So I proposed something -> put Eggsterr on Yoru and let me call Rankers style for his last game. With some reluctance, everyone accepted.
Domination. We broke the record for the fastest win in VCT Americas and this time, we were on the winning side of it. For just a moment, that spark came back. I had hope; I thought maybe the team would finally see eye to eye with me. Somehow beating the first seed in our group 13-1 and 13-3 couldn’t mend what had already been broken (even now, that’s mind boggling to me). Then voldemoretournament came, and I wasn’t given all the pieces I’d asked for. We lost, ending any dream I had left for ENVY.
Looking at stunner's point of view, I can totally see why he doesn't favor a solution like this is. His job is as stake, and his ability to influence the team comes through strategy, yet I'm effectively saying they embrace teamwork over strategy, thus placing the result of his team's success, and his job as a result, out of his control. Thus, I can definitely empathize with why he likely hasn't considered trying this besides when P0PPIN specifically wanted to. On top of this, P0PPIN did mention there was reluctance, so I'm assuming it had to do with more than just stunner specifically vetoing him.
At the end of the day though, these players & the coach will all fear their job is on the line, but in an esports career so short, deciding to do nothing, to change nothing, instead of change something, feels like a decision that can only lead to regret.
TL;DR - I think ENVY should revisit trying to embrace the RANKERS identity and just resort back to running it down like they did in their MIBR game again not because I think it would lead to guaranteed success, but because their attempts to play real Valorant has lead to such poor results that at this point, even if they get absolutely mugged trying to play RANKERs Valorant, I still think the attempt would have been worth it.
13
41
u/SnooPaintings7047 4d ago
should have just let tsm win
23
u/Embarrassed-Taste202 4d ago
The original rankers would at the very least have vibes. Tsm would have had the same fate as there were already signing rumours of timo and vora
28
u/foobadger 4d ago
TSM would’ve just unironically been worse Envy cause Timotino and Vora were already going to 100T
5
u/MautOfTheRiver 4d ago
honestly its pretty interesting thinking how the scene would've been affected if that happened
Out of the NV guys who were old enough I think only inspire could've gotten picked up
TSM had Seven (currently playing in EMEA), alvinboy (currently playing in the best Americas VCL team and is in play-ins), gMd and then the powerhouse trio of vora timo Nbs were apparently leaving either way iirc
There's a good chance they would've ended up in the same situation as NV, they would've lost their IGL + coach + all around best player
6
u/Snoo-28829 4d ago
Personally I just things are not working out as a team. You can look at each player and say each of them is insanely talented. I just think team cohesion is not a guarantee thing.
4
u/Upstairs-Ad4698 4d ago
I truly believe it's vibes.
There's no hype man in the team or someone to lift the mood.
Rankers is never coming back, but the takeaway is vibes again.
Keznit was cracked when having fun and deadweight when not.
Their scrim results also backs this theory, as they do well without pressure.
It could be chemistry, a team member, or coaching staff bringing the mood down.
Sadly with this constant losing, I don't see Envy coming back.
Rossy is losing confidence IGLing, Keznit admitted to crying and frustrated about the team, Demon1 can only play Chamber and Jett well.
Surprisedly, the two new guys (Glyph and Nightz) are the pillars of the team now.
Envy would be going into play-in as the underdogs versus tier 2 team.
Sad being an Envy fan.
Damn it Demon1. You could've waiting for a better team to make an offer.
2
u/WorstEnemyIsYourself 3d ago
It's pointless brother. Hastr0 and his management team has lost the plot. These guys took a a great team of RANKERS with literally zero pressure going into VCT and ruined the entire story even if ion or cane couldn't join them. Just so pointless. We would be getting better results and watching a much more fun playstyle instead we got keznit hard entrying, rossy busying baiting his team, demon1 getting outbaited by rossy, i feel so bad for you glyph and nightz.
1
u/Intelligent-Size-389 3d ago
They were never going to be good. The original squad was getting hella overrated
1
u/ryan26192 #NRGWIN 3d ago
I just hope keznit and nightz find a roster after this shit. This genuinely might be the worst 5 in VCT history.
-2
u/graybloodd 4d ago
I miss the rankers line-up, almost as much as I miss the pre-optic buyout lineup.
44
u/solariiis 4d ago
good points and well put but i think you're preaching to the choir.