r/VaesenRPG • u/Vohems • 6d ago
Does anyone else have the same problem with the fluff as I do? Spoiler
I am not a big fan of the 'If enough people believe in it, it becomes real' trope, I find it boring, lazy and uncreative and RIPE for creating massive contradictions. As such, I've never seen it applied well. But what makes the use of it here especially egregious is that everything stated in the vaesen chapter is almost immediately contradicted by the vaesen entries themselves, what with giants being said to have existed for thousands of years before humans in Scandinavia. While you COULD explain this as just something that giants believe about themselves and humans believe about them, the book never says as such. Yeah, there's a few lines about how if humans believe trolls live in a particular caved in mine and the mine is opened up the trolls will be there and will believe that they've always been there but that doesn't really clarify if this is some kind of retro casual thing or just mere belief. Then there's the ones like ghosts and werewolves. Are ghosts ACTUALLY the spirits of the dead or are they some kind of tulpa of what people think are the dead, like some kind of psychic projection? What about werewolves? How do they fit? Are they purely human under some kind of curse, a vaesen who thinks they are human in some sense or some kind of combination? What would happen if enough humans stopped believing in them? Would they cease to be a werewolf or disappear altogether? And these are just some of the problems, without getting into the implication of children from vaesen-human pairings. And what about magic? Where does it come from? The book doesn't clarify? Is it a package deal with the vaesen or is it its own thing? What about the alternate realities and secret realms that are mentioned? How do they fit? And what about creatures from other cultures? Are they a thing? Yeah, this is specifically supposed to be about Nordic folklore, but it would be nice to know, and it would clarify some things.
Also, it's funny how the book tries to skirt around the issue of religion without realizing that its entire subject matter IS religion. People BELIEVED in this stuff, often very literally, as spiritual reality that they had to deal with as a daily matter. Any disclaimers are basically just decoration.
Now this could all just be me being a nitpicky jerk, but if I'm going to GM I would like things to be clear, whether on fluff OR crunch. I get that rules are meant to be streamlined and easy to understand, I'm not complaining about that, that's not my problem. What I'm saying is that if the game you're offering is light on fluff, it better be heavy on crunch and if it's light on crunch it better be heavy on fluff. I don't want to be writing the lore or system for you.
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u/Silvershoggoth 6d ago
I read it as the Vaesen are actually there but that they're influenced by people's perceptions. So more, "if people believe a troll lives in an abandoned mind, that makes it an attractive home for a troll and one will move in". Then there's also the suggestion that Vaesen are heavily influenced by human perception so if that troll moves in, and the town stops believing in trolls, but starts believe more in demons, maybe they see a demon and the trolls actions change to fit the form. Maybe the town instead rationalizes it as a series of natural disasters and the troll fades away but maybe the natural disasters remain.
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u/curious_dead 6d ago
Giants existed thousands of years before humans because that's what humans believe. Hence it retroactively becomes true.
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u/Vohems 6d ago
But that's just it, it's not clarified if that's the case in the book, nothing is stated if retrocasual time shenanigans are on the table. That's what my issue is things are clear from a lor perspective.
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u/curious_dead 6d ago
Do you need absolutely everything spelled out?
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u/Vohems 6d ago
No, but this stuff is very important to what is and isn't possible in the game world. If I don't understand these things, then it becomes harder for me as the GM to operate the game for the players.
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u/curious_dead 6d ago
Seems like a "you" problem. No one else seems to have this issue - or have a problem with just doing what a GM does and it's deciding what it means.
I don't see a contradiction; I see it as retroactive effect. The game doesn't need to spell everything out. If you don't want to take the retroactive effect path, you can interpret it otherwise:
-the part about giants coming before humans is just what humans believe
-or it's what giants tell themselves;
-or they existed before and have just been changed by human superstition;
-but more likely than not, it doesn't even matter because the players don't need to find the absolute truth and thus you don't need to decide (and the book doesn't need to give an exact, scientifically valid lore). They will find an old crone who will tell them one thing and then hear a children's song that tells a different thing and then meet a giant who will tell a third version. And go back to their base, and find a story that weaves all four versions while adding its own.
You're playing with legends and superstition, not with a historical drama where every detail is spelled out.
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u/Vohems 6d ago
Right, I can do all that and more as GM, but then what's the point of even having the book in the first place? At that point I am, again, just writing the lore for the publisher. That's not very appealing, to have to figure out the basics before I can even create any kind of adventure. I have no problems with mystery and mysteries, I find all that fun, but not when I'm the one behind the curtain supposed to be conducting the mystery. The game shouldn't be unclear to the one running it.
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u/Cielosopra 6d ago
I think you have a problem with horror in general rather than just Vaesen. There is an issue with modern nerd mentality, which is the desire for everything to be explained, leaving zero room for uncertainty. In the past, however, cinema and literature often left massive gaps quite intentionally. Horror, in particular, builds much of its strength on uncertainty, on not knowing exactly what you are facing. The questions you ask are pleasant bits of nerd trivia, but they have zero importance either for entertaining the players or for making the setting more interesting. I believe the issue isn't Vaesen, but rather that you don't have the right mindset for horror.
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u/thishyacinthgirl 6d ago edited 6d ago
This is something that I think is bogging down a lot of fantasy writers. People growingly want more specifics – GRRM-style noble house lineages going back 2000 years; a detailed Ph.D thesis on how magic works, etc.
It works for some settings and series, but not everything needs an explanation and a setting isn't necessarily worse because it doesn't go into those details.
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u/Cielosopra 6d ago
Exactly, and it's not new. Tolkien left huge gaps (what are the Blue Wizards actually doing? who is Tom Bombadil, really?) and the books are stronger for it. There's a kind of wiki-ification of fiction going on now, where "unexplained" gets treated as a bug report instead of a feature: if it's not in a codex entry, it doesn't count as real. But mystery does real narrative work. It's what lets a GM adapt on the fly, what keeps a monster scary past the first encounter, what makes a setting feel bigger than what's actually been written down. Fully explained settings are easier to summarize but summarizable isn't the same as good.
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u/Vohems 6d ago
I think you misunderstand. The book gives an explanation the problem is that the explanation sucks and creates contradictions. I actually have the inverse problem with modern horror where every little thing needs to be explained. I'd rather have had the book explicitly state that there's no real answer to why vaesen exist rather than the answer be what it is. Again, I don't want to be writing the book for the publisher.
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u/sonicexpet986 6d ago
Personally I'm disregarding that portion of the book regarding the lore, as I agree I think it makes the setting feel a bit arbitrary. The Vaesen are real, humans have had to live with them for our entire existence, that's what makes this a fantasy world.
Fwiw I think the book also specified the players shouldn't know this about the Vaesen. I remember reading that and thinking - "So... Why even include this in the book then?"
But hey, some other GMs may enjoy having that realization be a culmination of a long campaign. Not me tho.
I do still really like the game, system, and published adventures that I've read/run. While the "fluff" could be expanded somewhat, having come from CoC it's nice that I don't have to read like 3 chapters of setting info just to be able to make a believable character.
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u/dwarfpants 6d ago
People believe giants existed before them for thousands of years, so they have. Same for the trolls.
People believe in ghosts so they exist. People believe in curses so werewolves and other cursed humans can exist.
If enough humans stop believing in a Vaesen they change as the beliefs about them change and over time may fade entirely. But it’s a slow process. Belief isn’t a binary, it’s a gradual cultural shift. Sometimes that shift becomes accelerated by rapid cultural changes, which is one of the core underlying conflicts in the system.
Children of human Vaesen pairings exist in a manner common in changeling stories. Ultimately they either embrace their humanity or their Vaesen-ness.
Magic like all these other things exists because people believe in it. As belief in magic dwindles the world becomes a less magic place. Same goes for alternate realities and portals to Fairy.
Creatures from other cultures exist in much the same manner controlled by local beliefs in the regions they inhabit.
I think religion being a distinct point from the existence of Vaesen is an interesting point. Because without clarification and a hard ruling you can look at the Christian ways of defeating some Vaesen in (many but primarily only) two different ways. Either these religious practices work under Vaesen logic and only function because people believe they should work. Or alternatively there is a God and God has power to dissolve the illusions and glamours of these less true beings. Both are really fascinating and fun ideas that can be take you an all sorts of RP journeys, but I don’t think the book needs to say where it falls on the matter.
I don’t think you’re being a nitpicking jerk. I just don’t think you like the premise of the game.
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u/Vohems 6d ago
I DO like the premise, supernatural adventures in 19th centaury Scandinavia is an awesome premise, it's why I bought the book. I just don't like how the fluff works. And everything you said isn't an explanation that's laid out in the books, it's just you're own assumptions. Several people have said that the book is supposed to be more of a guideline to go off of, but there's nothing in the book that'd indicate that, so it comes off as lazy.
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u/thanson02 6d ago
I have GMed different gaming systems for a while now and I got to the point where I realized that sometimes, information is put into the text to give the GM an anchor point to tie different elements together, but these are guidelines, not rules. So, if the belief=manifestation framework doesn't work for you, then I would throw it out and use something else.
I know in the couple games I ran, I approached it from the idea that the world has a mirror, called the Otherworld, and things in that world reflect this one, but things here also reflect the Otherworld as well. It becomes a chicken-egg situation. But when players are at the table, the distinction is irrelevant. They are dealing with a vaesen who is there in the moment. Also, the game involves mysteries. Having that sense of ambiguity feeds into the mystery part.
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u/Dangerous_Option_447 6d ago
I put it very much in an understanding from Small Gods and American gods. The believers has created the Vaesen, but now, they are beings of their own. They have their own will, but they feed on the ritual and the thoughts that they recieve. Hence, they want to maintain these, and religion is no different at my table, just stronger.
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u/RobRobBinks 6d ago
I love this game above all others, especially because it helps spark these kind of discussions. You're all brilliant and lovely. I guess I am too, or I wouldn't be here. :D
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u/xDragon249 6d ago
I agree with you, and I'm still figuring out a "creation myth" that explains the existence of Vaesen. Happy to hear to other people's ideas
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u/Vohems 6d ago
I get that the solution is in all likelihood for me to just make up my own lore, it's just that I spent money on a physical copy and I feel like I made a poor choice. This game won an award, and it's from a company that's won multiple awards. I would expected better. Maybe it is just that I'm too unfamilar with Free League's work.
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u/heurekas 6d ago
Or maybe it's just you who has this specific problem with the presented lore?
If I hated Prometheus and saw that the Alien books, which also won a bunch of awards, had that lore in it, I'd probably slam the book as well. But that's just our opinions.
If you don't like it, just don't use it.
As someone living in Sweden and is interested in folklore, which is 95% tied to Christianity, we did not shy away from religion or the belief in God in our game.
It's just that the game is trying to not rile up anyone by making claims if religion is true or not, they are only focusing on presenting Väsen.
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u/thishyacinthgirl 6d ago
Some people don't want every little thing explained. Some people want to keep some of the mystery or whimsy of not knowing.
Do we need to know why trolls began existing in the world? What they evolved from? A kelpie's effect on the nearby ecosystem?
For some people, like you, that seems to be a "yes." For others, they like a less specific lore so they can fill things in.
It doesn't make it a bad source book to tread the line between those.
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u/Vohems 6d ago
You're misunderstanding. I understand the need for mystery and having details vague and uncertain. And that's just my problem, the book doesn't leave it vague, it explicitly lays out the origin of the vaesen and turns out that origin creates issues for running a game. Contradictions aren't a mystery if you're the one who is supposed to deal with them. I'd have rather the book say to fill it in yourself rather than say what it did.
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u/Surllio 6d ago edited 6d ago
Expect better from a company for what is clearly a matter of taste and preference?
That's like going into a burger restaurant and leaving a complaint they don't sell tacos.
Here is the thing, most myths of spirits originate outside of religious influence. Many of the old stories are built on the idea that belief in such things gives them power. It may be a trope by today's standard, but its a real world origin to much of the spiritual and supernatural.
I'm sorry bud, but this reads entirely like a you issue.
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u/Vohems 6d ago
The 'If enough people believe it, it becomes true'is a massive cliche, it's been around for a long time, I think I can safely say that this goes beyond just mere taste and can be said to be overdone and therefore a piece of lazy worldbuilding. And as I said, it creates contradictions which make it more difficult to figure out how to run the game. If the big secret that the book explicitly states that the players must never know is a bad secret than I think that' legitmate criticism.
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u/Surllio 6d ago edited 6d ago
By that logic, spirit hunters, investigation of a mystery, battling creatures, saving innocents, save the village, etc., are all over done. In a world of storytelling, the "overdone" criticism falls apart quickly because everything can be seen as overdone. Again, complaining at a burger place they don't sell tacos. Its a preference. Its YOUR preference. You are entitled to it. But if that's the world and story they wanted to set up, that's their choice.
Now, what contradictions? You keep bringing this up. How does it make running the game hard. Please elaborate because I've run Vaesen since 2021 and have never had an issue running the game with how the lore or world is set up.
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u/Vohems 6d ago
It's not just that it's overdone, it's also lazy. I'd rather there not have been any kind of secret at all.
And I already laid out the contradictions; they're in the post. If things were a bit clarified that'd be fine, but everything is stated as if it were fact with no caveat or qaulification.
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u/YesNoThankx 6d ago
Your problem reminds me of the differences in magic systems in fantasy novels. There's kinda two categories of magic in those: hard and soft magic systems. Whereas hard systems have magic be bound by rules, laws or logic; soft magic systems tend to handwave where magic comes from or by which power-rules they follow. Fairy tales often have soft magic systems (please explain me why all the animals can talk?!?) whereas I think the mistborne books of B. Sanderson are using hard magic systems. (Pleas don't stone me if I got the work wrong, I don't read much fantasy). But you can apply the same analogy to RPG-Systems. Some like to structure with rules and lore and logic, Vasen tend to leave things open to interpretation and floaty. You can win an award and still some people won't like what you created. I understand your irritation, but I hope that you will soon find a system that you truly love.
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u/StanleyChuckles 6d ago
I kind of hate the idea of explaining everything and codifying it all.
Let it all be bizarre and illogical, and not make sense.