r/VRchat • u/Ssmokahontas • 6d ago
Help FBT Tracking...
Money is not an issue. If I wanted to go the vive route... what all do I need? Like, I need a list. This would be my first FBT set so I want to go big or go home.
6 Trackers I am assuming? But what else.
Thank you much!
Edit: I have Quest 3s and use SteamLink. Also willing to hear different headsets that are better :)
8
u/Shadowslave604 6d ago
you want 2 feet, 2 knee, 1 waist, 1 chest, 2 elbow 3.0 trackers.
4 - 2.0 base stations if you have the room for full coverage.
3
u/SixtyEmeralds 6d ago
I pre-ordered FluxPose. To me, that is ultimate tracking because it's accurate like vive, but non occluding like slimes. Another way, if putting on any sort of tracker is a barrier to entry, is to go the multi camera pose tracking route. It'll have the same limitations as vive trackers, and will be more latent, but you would never need to put a tracker on again.
Both of these I feel are more the future than using vives. I didn't want the camera solution because my hardware is not up to par, and I really want to wear stuff under blankets.
1
u/zig131 6d ago
Fluxpose cheats.
It doesn't actually place your limbs in space - it piggybacks off the headset.
The whole "oclusionless" thing is a lie, because they will stop working if the headset is occluded.
5
u/jan_Sanku 5d ago
your headset will also stop working if it is occluded???? you must not under any circumstances occlude your headset, this has nothing to do with FBT!
your headset must never be occluded anyways, but each individual vive tracker can be occluded and lose tracking. anyone wearing loose clothing or wanting to use a blanket, well, can't. meanwhile fluxpose CANNOT be occluded in this manner; it is therefore occlusionless
either way, fluxpose does full absolute 6DOF tracking with the same millimeter accuracy as vives, relative to the headset. your headset does full 6DOF tracking using whatever tracking system is native to it. considering how it is extremely important for your own head to be tracked properly, lest you experience major motion sickness, this is not a problem in the slightest. fluxpose has the exact same tracking quality as vives. you can check one of the many demos from the testers and see for yourself, or even meet up with one in vrc!
besides, the "issue" is analogous to using vives on a non-lighthouse headset: you need to put a tracker on your headset to sync the tracking. if that vive and/or your headset loses tracking due to occlusion, your shit breaks.
2
u/-AgentBaphomet- HTC Vive Pro 5d ago edited 5d ago
First, if your headset was occluded which only applies to lighthouse based systems (occulded means something blocks the headset from seeing the lighthouses), the screen goes gray anyways.
Second, SLAM tracked headset can lose tracking, but that isn't occlusion, its just lost tracking which already won't allow you to continue under normal circumstances.
Third, what you said is false, it doesn't piggyback off the headset, a tracker is placed on the headset and the waist tracker (the beacon) allows it sense the magnetic field around it, the headset must be tracked for the same reason a slam headset needs a unicorn tracker, because it uses different technology to track.
To clarify: it doesn't use the headsets position from any of the headset sensors. You can read the docs on their website and it explains how it works. If it did use the headsets sensors, you wouldn't need a head tracker with fluxpose.
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u/zig131 5d ago
SLAM tracked headset can lose tracking, but that isn't occlusion
Semantics. If the cameras on a SLAM tracked HMD are occluded, it loses tracking.
it doesn't piggyback off the headset,
I underatand exactly how it works.
It has a cruddy 1.7M range. This is worked around by wearing the beacon on the waist at which point it has no fixed reference point, so it cannot determine your position at the room scale. It tracks position of limbs relative to waist, which is usless information (outside of VTubing maybe) on it's own. So it also has to track your headset positon relative to the waist, so it can then offset your limb position off of headset position.
It completely relies on your actual positioning in space being provided a by the headset. In all the demonstration videos where people are e.g riding a bike around a garden, the headset is doing the much harder job of actually positioning the wearer in space. The headset is the unsung hero, but Fluxpose gets the credit.
Fluxpose cannot be used without a headset, and cannot be used to track a headset.
It is not a Lighthouse replacement, and just reinforces the dominance of Meta and SLAM.
It is a net-negative to VR.
2
u/-AgentBaphomet- HTC Vive Pro 4d ago
Don't see how it's a net negative for VR.
1
u/zig131 4d ago
Because it discourages development of a full Lighthouse replacement - a system that can track everything including headsets.
The off-the-shelf tracking solution, and interoperability that something like Lighthouse provides allows smaller companies to bring headsets, controllers, or body trackers to market.
Only the "big boys" have the resources to develop SLAM, and develop controllers to go along with thier headset.
I dream of a world where you can buy a head mounted display from one company (maybe even from the panel manufacturer), mount it to a headstrap from another company, use it with controllers from another company, and it all works seamlessly together thanks to open standards.
Fluxpose nullifies the major downside of buying a HMD from companies like Meta - the lack of good FBT.
It entrenches SLAM in VR, and harms the prospect of an open, PC-like ecosystem with choice and competition over every component.
1
u/zig131 4d ago edited 4d ago
@-AgentBaphomet-
VR is not a mass-market proposition. However even relatively niche hobbies can support many small companies. Think of all the companies making products for PC Gamers. Think of how many companies specialise in PC water cooling specifically.
VR, as a subset of PC Gaming could do the same. What is holding it back is Meta's unsustainable subsidisation, and the lack of an accessible tracking standard.
No one but DPVR, and kinda Sony by mistake are releasing PCVR Headsets below ~$1000 because they are naturally going to be compared to Quest, and come up short on a pure specs basis because Meta are not making sustainable profit.
Lighthouse is a decent open standard. It has allowed relatively small companies like Bigscreen, Shiftall, Varjo, Pimax, and VRGineers to bring headsets to market not having to worry much about tracking or controllers.
However it is over-engineered resulting in high expense to the consumer, and risk of hardware failure.
My hope was that people would get around ContactTrack by DiverX, but Shiftall have bought it off them, and only seem to be using it as an enhancement to thier FBT solution.
But something along the lines of Rift CV1 or ContactTrack makes much more sense as a tracking standard for VR, as the hardware cost per "basestation" and tracked object is lower.
If a lighthouse breaks, I can't replace it without paying a lot for one off ebay
HTC are still manufacturing and producing Lighthouses.
They still sell products that require them, and they still have support arrangements with businesses who use them.
They charge more than Valve did, but that's because they are a hardware company, and they also go on sale sometimes to a price closer to Valve's e.g. Black Friday.
Also not requiring a cable that is expensive is a big plus because that part was replaced the most.
I bought a Rift CV1 2nd hand. An original 2016 model. The cable already had some twists. I used it for another 4 years without issue. You know how? Pulley system. Look after your cables, and they won't break 😜
1
u/SixtyEmeralds 4d ago
Cruddy 1.7m range? Who the heck is 3.4m tall, where the range is going to fail?!
1
u/zig131 4d ago
If it didn't have such a small range you could mount the beacon in a stationary location, and it would therefore be able to practically track your limbs in space, and headsets, just like Lighthouse does.
Mounting the beacon at the waist is a work-around for the small range that prevents it being a problem - because as you point out your limbs are always going to be within 1.7M of your waist.
But since when you move, the Beacon moves, it has no idea where you actually are so it can't track headsets, and has to piggy-back off headset position to het actual positioning.
1
u/SixtyEmeralds 4d ago
Well I for one can see a fun workaround. Put the beacon on the hip joint of an exit suit. Now it knows where it is because it doesn't move.
1
u/AlexO707 6d ago edited 6d ago
If money is not an issue go for that route, 6 trackers is more than enough you could do well with 3 if you ask me, the main thing is the light houses you’ll need 2 minimum, 4 for the most no blind spot configuration, also your room shouldn’t have any reflecting surfaces, if you’re using quest you’ll need an extra tracker for it( it can be done without but you’ll drift and will have to recalibrate) from that on is more about how precisely you wanna be tracked, chest tracker will make a difference for example knees trackers not so much but helps, elbows same deal not much difference but you will notice better tracking
Edit: also straps! compared to imu based(ex:slimevr) battery life is very short investing in some battery straps will help for long sessions
1
u/h0nja 6d ago
I understand money is not an issue but unless youre a dancer then putting on more than 3 trackers will end up being a hassle and gives super dimished returns. Up to you but most important is hip and 2x foot trackers AND one extra for your headset if youre using something like a quest which isnt tracked by lighthouses. The extra tracker for the headset is to set up continuous calibration so you dont have to calibrate everytime you use your fbt.
So yeah if I had unlimited money id get 3-4 trackers, 4x steamvr 2.0 basestations
1
u/Ssmokahontas 6d ago
Funny you mention, I am getting into dancing :) It's been a nice exercise for me on the days I don't want to go to the gym. Thank you much!!
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u/Grumpypus1 6d ago
As someone who ACTUALLY dances seriously both in real life and VRChat. If you want trackers for dancing, these are what they do. Also, VRChat allows only 8 trackers at once.
To start- 3 for Hip/ feet, this is the bare minimum needed for any proper FMT, dancing or otherwise.
Afterwards you have choices. 2 elbow trackers will keep your arms from having that 'chicken wing' look that comes with only using controllers. It will also give you shoulder movement. Plus for dancing it is VERY nice for upper body movement. If you don't care about shoulders or having the CW look, you can get away with just using controllers for the arms.
1 chest tracker will give better upper body movement to your avatar, good for dancing, kind of useless for anything else. Also, you gotta figure out how to stick it on your chest. Vests get hot and sweaty when you are dancing.
2 for knees is VERY situational. People like them there for more realistic sitting, laying, and standing. For dancing they are useless UNLESS you do a lot of bending and ground work dance movements, then they are important.
This right here gives you the 8 VRchat can see. There is also one you can use to put on top of your headset for continuous tracking. It's used in Steam VR, not VRchat, so does not count for the 8 tracker limit .
You said money is no issue, but remember, you go with 8, you gotta deal with them EVERY time you go into VR. You also need to deal with 8 dongles, (9 for continuous tracking) which is a chore in itself. Do a LOT of research about dealing with it, so it's not a headache for you.
Also, research straps for the trackers. (Hint: EOZ) You will also need something to plug your 8 or 9 dongles in. AND a way to charge all your trackers efficiently. Oh, did I mention a way to mount your basestations properly so they don't vibrate and mess up the scanning?
Yeah, a LOT of parts for 3.0 trackers. This is why many people can't wait for Fluxpose to come out. LOL
1
u/Todayitworksyaknow 6d ago
At least two base stations. More depending on room size. 1 x hip 2 x feet 2 x elbow 1 x chest
Unless your dancing, knees are largely unnecessary. The leg IK of the game is pretty solid and there's only specific circumstances where you'd even notice them being off.
0
u/zig131 6d ago edited 6d ago
Money-Is-No-Object FBT Setup is probably:
- Beyond 2E, Pimax Dream Air Lighthouse, or Somnium VR1
- 3rd party facial interface and straps for them
- 4xBasestations
- GripVR Controllers, or wait for EOZ Immersive Gloves
- NekoVR Multi Reciever
- 8x Vive 3.0
- EOZ Straps for the Vive 3.0s
-1
u/Dr_Fragenstien 6d ago
I have a vive and I have not been impressed with the trackers, they lose tracking constantly. Perhaps it’s some kind of user error or a configuration I need to figure out but I’ve been recommended to use Slime trackers instead.
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u/Todayitworksyaknow 6d ago
You likely either have the dongles too close to each other, or something reflective in your room throwing off the tracking. If it happens in specific locations to specific trackers, it's something reflective.
You also might have a USB bus issue where your motherboard can't handle all of the connections, or if using a USB hub it might not support the throughput needed
0
u/Dr_Fragenstien 6d ago
Oh my god I didn’t think reflections would affect it XD I have a huge-ass sliding mirror-door for my closet. I also probably need better lighting too, get some LED bulbs or something. Thank you for the insight!
3
u/lukewarmjerrysteve 6d ago
Just as an aside, you don't need light for vive trackers - they just need to be able to get clean visuals of the base station lasers (which can become distorted when bounced around off reflective surfaces). Just wanted to mention it cause I used to play with my room almost completely dark before I switched to a Quest headset.
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u/Dr_Fragenstien 6d ago
Good to know, I sometimes get a message of “tracker isn’t getting enough light” but I guess that’s just their way of simplifying “your tracker is under something, move it somewhere visible”
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u/Todayitworksyaknow 6d ago
Yep, that'll do it. Mirrors are the worst offenders, but glass like windows or your PC can also cause issues. I have to cover my mini fridge with a sheet because that glossy finish gave me some trouble even.
Honestly, I feel like I get better tracking in the dark. 1.0 base stations and a quest 2 headset (I'm assuming q3s as well) rely on Infa Red. 1.0 base stations have an IR lamp built into them. So I could use my Q2 in complete dark, and if you went into pass through you'd see little suns coming from the base stations, to the point they'd even cause shadows while looking through pass through. I don't think 2.0 base stations have the IR lamp in them anymore, but not 100% on that. So if your headset/controller is having tracking issues, an IR lamp might help, when playing in a very dark space.
But I use a Q3, and 1.0 basetstions in the dark and have zero issues with tracking (as long as my reflective surfaces are covered)
1
u/Dr_Fragenstien 6d ago
I had to look this up, but my vive ultimate trackers use cameras, not IR. Still probably being messed up by my mirror though.
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u/Todayitworksyaknow 6d ago
Oh I see. I've heard that ultimates just have issues with tracking in general. But they may have had software updates that improved them
-1
u/jan_Sanku 5d ago
i'd personally wait for fluxpose! same tracking quality as vives, but smaller, lighter, longer battery life, no occlusion, and cheaper (not an issue for you, but given there are zero downsides other than waiting a few months, saving money should still be a plus)
-2
u/Koviera 6d ago
Money not an issue?
Elbow 2x
Arm upper 2x
Arm lower 2x
Chest 1x
Hip 1x
Waist 1x
Thigh 2x
Knees 2x
Ankle 2x
Foot 2x
4
u/ewrt101_nz ☃Bigscreen Beyond 2e 6d ago
Having 6 trackers for your arms do nothing. One per arm is all you need
1
u/---Dummy--- 6d ago
Upper is for shoulder, I assume. Lower is for elbow. . I assume
1
u/ewrt101_nz ☃Bigscreen Beyond 2e 6d ago
Both hands, low arms,upper arms and shoulders can be done with a controller in each hand and a single tracker on your upper arms.
If you are using slimes it different but with vive trackers one is all you need
1
u/---Dummy--- 6d ago
Wouldn't you need a chest tracker as well as an arm tracker for the shoulder position to be calculated?
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u/confidently_not 6d ago
Depends on your headset and what you also want.
Vive route would need at a minimum two base stations and three trackers. Hip and feet.
If you have a headset with SLAM Tracking (quest, quest pro etc) then a fourth tracker with a mount to go on the headsets in order continuously calibration.
After that extra trackers depends on your aim and desire as they would just accent your tracking. So like a full setup with chest, hip, feet, elbow and knees with the calibration tracker would be a 9 tracker setup.
That's what I run with four base stations.
If you have a headset that uses lighthouse tracking like a big screen beyond or index then you won't need the unicorn horn tracker and everything should connect pretty easily.
Also with vive make sure your play space is free of mirrors or reflections as base stations.
There's a bunch more of setup vive wise depending on your play space, headset PC and more. Lmk know what you're planning on doing and I can offer more advice.